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eternally-gratefull
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some things are worth discussing, Not not fighting about.. or causing division over.
Not By Works
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some things are worth discussing, Not not fighting about.. or causing division over.
The power of our will? Show me where our will isn't in bondage. I do believe in original sin. It goes hand in hand with election. It pretty well harmonizes with election...
God is love but he also, as is written, wished to show his wrath and justice, mercy and grace, and so on. It has everything to do with preselection. Even if you don't agree with the doctrine of election clearly taught in scripture, you can try and look at it this way: God knew all things from start to finish, that most would reject him and go to hell. He created them anyway. This is by very definition predetermination. There can be no other outcome or conclusion. You can't wiggle out of it.
And God does not owe us his love. Show me this in scripture. Scripture teaches that God OWES us his wrath if anything.
I agree that we have freedom in Christ, but only then, and by his empowerment, not our own ability. There is a lot in this post to address, so sorry if I didn't respond to everything.
I would presume that you are a preacher, an evangelist or a religious teacher maybe. If i am correct, do you consider these as work? If not, what is your intention of doing what you’re doing here? Did anybody preach to you the Gospel before you had faith and was saved? Do you not believe that salvation is a work? And what do you think is the purpose of those who are or claim to be in Christ?
I believe that salvation is by grace thru faith in our Lord Jesus and His Gospel but as it is written, faith comes from hearing the message thru a preacher being sent.
Romans 10:13-15 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”
...Our Lord Jesus sent His disciples to preach the Gospel of our salvation.
Matthew 28:19-20 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
...and to believe in Christ means that you will be a part of His body(the Church) who will do His works here on earth.
John 14:12 I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.
1 Corinthians 12:28 And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues.
Ephesians 4:12-16 to prepare God’s people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.
...to be rich in good works,
1 Timothy 6:18 Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share.
…otherwise
Matthew 25:45-46 “He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
...and to make the long story short, SALVATION IS NOT BY WORKS(of ourselves) NEITHER BY FAITH ALONE...
Galatians 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, BUT FAITH WHICH WORKETH BY LOVE..
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Ariel82
Guest
Romans 6:18:
New International Version
You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
That's just one very of many!...Will that suffice? So, you don't believe your spirit has gone from being mordantly dead, to being revived thru rebirth in nothing short of our New Creation??
What you call predetermination I would call free will. What you call inevitability I would call simply omniscience and knowledge.I believe God foreknew us before we were even in the womb and counted each hair - that doesn't sound like a God of power alone, but of love in Character. He knew the plans He had for us: to prosper us, and not to harm us, to give us hope and a future.
You are so busy about the business of your doctrine you have lost sight of the relationship with God and who He is. I, wouldn't dream of wiggling out of showing God's glory in His power, nor would I take away the fact that God is a Holy God; as much as He desires us to be apart of Him He cannot have sin be in His presence in His Kingdom. We have made the choice to not follow Him, if we do not enter His gates. You can't wiggle out of that fact - if led by His Spirit. For, it is plain that He has afforded us all a place in Heaven if we so choose in Scripture.
God does owe us His love - for He Himself has made it so. Why do you execute judgement on His judgements? God owes us nothing outside of the fact He has chosen to love us; but to that end, He has done so. Faithfully He loves the Saint and the sinner alike, for He came not to save His saints but to save sinners. If we have freedom in Christ, as you claim, what shall you do with it, that becomes who we are? And which spirit shall we conclude your character resembles? If I do not choice, I am but a trophy in God's showcase. But, I am not that, and God testifies to me in my spirit from His in my intuition, based on His Word, that this is not in error.
I am still trying to gather the.."God wished to show His wrath"....section of your post.
God wants a relationship with us?
Imagine in a nursery an adult coming in and saying to a 3 year old, I want a relationship
with you. It would be absurd. Until that individual is actually an adult the relationship
is always adult to child, where the child is looking to the adult to direction and guidance
like a parent.
When that child is an adult, only then will the relationship be on equal terms.
So equally to say we chose God is like the 3 year old saying they choose the adult.
All they actually do is trust, put out a hand, and accept guidance. There is choice
involved, but it is not on how we determine choice.
Could the 3 year old be asked about their future with or without the adult? No.
All they could choose is they like them or not. This does matter and it the first
step, but it is not what people envisage choice to be.
Imagine in a nursery an adult coming in and saying to a 3 year old, I want a relationship
with you. It would be absurd. Until that individual is actually an adult the relationship
is always adult to child, where the child is looking to the adult to direction and guidance
like a parent.
When that child is an adult, only then will the relationship be on equal terms.
So equally to say we chose God is like the 3 year old saying they choose the adult.
All they actually do is trust, put out a hand, and accept guidance. There is choice
involved, but it is not on how we determine choice.
Could the 3 year old be asked about their future with or without the adult? No.
All they could choose is they like them or not. This does matter and it the first
step, but it is not what people envisage choice to be.
Today, I see SO MANY false teachers and people who promote sin for the reason that they don't understand the Truth, and use satan's lies to justify sinning. All over facebook, in college, people around my age and younger. They believe in this false teaching... they don't believe you when you tell them the truth.
Gave you a rep for this. This was a brilliant answer and people need to understand this. People are following false teachings left right and centre these days. There needs to be order and for them to follow the Truth, and not satan.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
I do not know which is worse. The religious person who hides sin by denying, thus excusing it. Or the modern day people who claim this or that sin is not a sin, and we should not judge.
In reality they both scream at us as judgment,entail and attacking them, And refuse to look at the truth issue, whcih is their pride.
You say "use satan's lies to justify sinning."
I am unaware of what sins you are talking about and what justication.
Without this clarification people might be agreeing with the wrong things in the wrong
way.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
Or he breaks our leg and carries us
I think he frees our leg from the prison it got into. Then carries us to the flock.
and does not this fully equate to a lie...meaning....to mix a lie with the truth makes it a lie........?
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
Just basing on the analogy of a shepherd of old....if a particular sheep was prone to wander the shepherd would break it's leg and carry it until it healed.....from that day forward the sheep would stay close to the shepherd and no longer would wander off
obviously ...."not" <-----just like the word not in the garden eastward in Eden.......
Obviously I agree....added NOT like the snake did and completely changes context and what was said.
We would throw people in jail for doing that sort of a thing. Can you imagine doing that to your own son? Breaking his legs so that he will stay close to you?..I know..I can't imagine it either.
Actually the breaking of the sheep's leg is a fallacy and I know I heard it in some of my early church teachings and it just didn't sit right with me.
https://greenegem.wordpress.com/2011/12/03/myth-busting-8-breaking-a-lambs-leg/
There is no "The Lord is my Shepherd He breaketh my legs."
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The scripture you posted is in regards to freedom in Christ. It has nothing to do with free-will pre-salvation.
10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
Why can't we just let God be God and accept the simple truth that he is sovereign and we are not.
Or he breaks our leg and carries us
Or maybe he takes your cake off you but still says "come on I'm taking you back to the flock"
yeah I have heard both, googled it and found both yay and nay....and I should have clarified....GOD chastens his children who are wayward (which breaks us sometimes) and the end result is we are likely to not wander next time and it yields the peaceable fruits of righteousness.....
