Not By Works

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If God pre elected then non should be accountable to sin because God has already chosen the saved so the damned can live it up i suppose. Or better yet how do you know if your elected?

If God predestined everything then God created sin. Sin and evil is the proof of free will.
 
ForthAngel said:
Nothing there about man's choice.

Here is another one from Jesus himself:

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

Notice here that Jesus says you do not believe because you are not among my sheep, not you are not among my sheep because you don't believe. He continues to say that his sheep are given to him by the Father. Nothing about free will here. Choice seems to be God's, no?
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Twisting scripture again i see.

Jesus is saying they dont believe because they constantly reject Gods calling
 
Roughsoul1991 said:
If God pre elected then non should be accountable to sin because God has already chosen the saved so the damned can live it up i suppose. Or better yet how do you know if your elected?

If God predestined everything then God created sin. Sin and evil is the proof of free will.
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You still don't get it. Man is accountable because we chose sin over God. When Adam fell our will became bound. We are literally enslaved to sin and we obey our master. This is why we needed a Savior. If man had autonomous will, we could choose to be perfect. How many people you know that have chosen perfection? Chosen to be sinless? Other than Christ, there is none.
 
Roughsoul1991 said:
Twisting scripture again i see.

Jesus is saying they dont believe because they constantly reject Gods calling
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How did I twist it? It plainly says that. Language has meaning and purpose and should be understood as it was meant to be right?

What about this?

35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

Where is man's will in this passage? Looks like God's will to me.

What about this?

Ephesians 2:8-9English Standard Version (ESV)


8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

These verses reject man's will. It is God that chooses us.
 
The one who rejects Me and doesn't accept My sayings has this as his judge: the word I have spoken will judge him on the last day.

John 12:48
 
im not trying to steer anyone off topic but in context what does Jesus mean by raise him up on the last day?
 
ForthAngel said:
And? This doesn't refute election. All reject him until God saves us.
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Thats just your Interpretation. Where does it say all reject him until god saves them?

Lol this is pointless i have never heard anyone not believe in free choice. Until yesterday.
 
Roughsoul1991 said:
Thats just your Interpretation. Where does it say all reject him until god saves them?

Lol this is pointless i have never heard anyone not believe in free choice. Until yesterday.
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ALL over the bible, are you really serious?

9 What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10 as it is written:


“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14 “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
17 and the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

So if no one seeks after God, who will be saved? Could it be that scripture is telling the truth? That it is only by the power of God one is able to turn to him? What if the Gospel was the means by which he chose to save his elect? Pretty crazy idea huh.
 
ForthAngel said:
ALL over the bible, are you really serious?

9 What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10 as it is written:


“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14 “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
17 and the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

So if no one seeks after God, who will be saved? Could it be that scripture is telling the truth? That it is only by the power of God one is able to turn to him? What if the Gospel was the means by which he chose to save his elect? Pretty crazy idea huh.
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i personally believe i was called to seek him out

i think we have free will but i dont think it was my choice to open my eyes

i feel like he revealed himself to me in a way that instantly made any doubt of Jesus being God turn to nothing
 
JaimeMartinez26 said:
i personally believe i was called to seek him out

i think we have free will but i dont think it was my choice to open my eyes

i feel like he revealed himself to me in a way that instantly made any doubt of Jesus being God turn to nothing
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The thing is, scripture rejects free will as defined by most. We are free in the sense that we can choose, but according to scripture we can only choose according to our nature. Our nature is fallen, therefore we choose sin over God. The calling you felt is backed up by scripture.

Romans 8
28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
 
Ephesians 3:7-18 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord. 12 In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence.
 
ForthAngel said:
ALL over the bible, are you really serious?

9 What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10 as it is written:


“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14 “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
17 and the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

So if no one seeks after God, who will be saved? Could it be that scripture is telling the truth? That it is only by the power of God one is able to turn to him? What if the Gospel was the means by which he chose to save his elect? Pretty crazy idea huh.
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No where does it say God had control of their rejection also unto the point God decided now ill save.
 
Roughsoul1991 said:
Ephesians 3:7-18 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord. 12 In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence.
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Again, this passage doesn't oppose my view. It harmonizes with it. You still can't explain the plethora of predestination passages. I am not denying that faith saves, but the faith itself is a gift from God. The freedom in the passage you just quoted is post-salvation.

Ephesians 2:8-9English Standard Version (ESV)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
 
Gods election is biblical but to what extent? Why did Jesus weep over Jerusalem for not believing him. If God was all controlling Jesus wouldn't of wept over a city that chose not to have faith.
 
Roughsoul1991 said:
Gods election is biblical but to what extent? Why did Jesus weep over Jerusalem for not believing him. If God was all controlling Jesus wouldn't of wept over a city that chose not to have faith.
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To what extent? To its uttermost extent. It means what it says. The bible doesn't teach half-truths.
 
If you where among his sheep he would be your Shepard. Aka the word would be your teacher, because it isn't you don't believe
 
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