Not By Works

[Roughsoul1991]

This was my view. But I think a proper understanding of God's foreknowledge helps add to this. His foreknowledge is an active knowledge based on his own predetermination, not some passive knowledge or something he learned based on what we would choose. This distinction has to be made when discussing predestination.

Idk about that life would be pointless then. God creates human, God predetermined human, God chose humans to go to hell or heaven, and so he foreknows who is chosen? Kinda pointless life. My friend right now doesn't believe in jesus even though he has heard the word. But i guess since he hasnt responded then he is predestined to hell and i should give up.

 

[dcontroversal]

Idk about that life would be pointless then. God creates human, God predetermined human, God chose humans to go to hell or heaven, and so he foreknows who is chosen? Kinda pointless life. My friend right now doesn't believe in jesus even though he has heard the word. But i guess since he hasnt responded then he is predestined to hell and i should give up.

Men love darkness rather than the light.....many are called, but few chosen.....and like Paul said....one plants, one waters, but the increase is of God.....sow and water....the rest is up to the Lord.

 

[mailmandan]

You forget remaining in faith. Oh wait i forgot you dont believe that lol. Wrong thread.

Genuine faith remains and is not some shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away.

 

[ForthAngel]

Idk about that life would be pointless then. God creates human, God predetermined human, God chose humans to go to hell or heaven, and so he foreknows who is chosen? Kinda pointless life. My friend right now doesn't believe in jesus even though he has heard the word. But i guess since he hasnt responded then he is predestined to hell and i should give up.

Life wouldn't be pointless. It's how God designed it.

Think about it like this. Either God knew from eternity that his creation would fall and made it anyway, or God is not all knowing and had to learn who would choose him after creation. If you agree that God had exhaustive foreknowledge from eternity (before creation) and created it anyway, you have to concede that those he knew are not going to be saved were by his own decree. There is no way around it without diminishing the all knowing nature of God.

God chose the gospel as his means of saving the elect. There is nothing pointless about that as it is for his own glory and purposes. Not ours.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

OK, but there is no way one could read Scripture and not conclude God elects, not man. You're a young fellow though and hopefully in time you'll embrace the truth instead of following men like Pelagius, Sozzini, Sandeman, Finney et al. They've highly influenced you unawares.



It's right there in Scripture, therefore it's not my view, it is the view of Scripture.

God chose all of His unto salvation, He is Sovereign like that. The problem is you cannot rest in the fact that God chose, many feel more secure about choosing themselves than they do about what God has done. Therefore many trust in personal decision more than in God's revelation of Sovereign election.

But salvation is not via mans choice; John 1:13, Romans 9:11ff; James 1:18. Yet you say to the contrary, and you've offered not one passage to support your error.

None.

You cannot refute the mentioned passages I've given and must resort in attempt to pit a verse or two against them. Yes, you pit Scripture against Scripture because you cannot accept that God is God and that He chose, not you. You also embrace the false notion of free will, and I've shown you that none are free outside of Christ, John 8:35. You've not addressed even one Scripture offered.

Therefore I must ask, since you offer no Scripture, nor do you refer to any offered you. When is it that you will become a student of Scripture instead of going ad lib with your tradition influenced by the aforementioned heretics?



Purely subjective is the above. "To me" means nothing. Try employing Scripture, maybe? You've offered not one Scripture, et you make unfounded claims of "forcing" the Bible to fit "those verses" and your false accusation remains unsubstantiated. Pretty sad track record for a self-proclaimed student of Scripture.

No i see the same scriptures as you but understand them differently as i have explained.

But you can go on and think your view is superior, no big deal but im not the only one who believes this way and scholars also disagree on this subject. So hey you see what you see and i see what i see.

 

[Ariel82]

God gave everyone a chance to keep the Law.

People sinned and failed to keep the Law.

God gave all another chance by the preaching of the Gospel (Salvation through faith in Christ redeeming work on the cross)...we get the parables of the 4 kinds of soil.

Sometimes God will send someone to plant the seed again.

Sometimes God will till the soil and remove rocks and thorns.

However the mistake many make is that they feel entitled to special treatment, instead of thankful for God's blessings.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Life wouldn't be pointless. It's how God designed it.

Think about it like this. Either God knew from eternity that his creation would fall and made it anyway, or God is not all knowing and had to learn who would choose him after creation. If you agree that God had exhaustive foreknowledge from eternity (before creation) and created it anyway, you have to concede that those he knew are not going to be saved were by his own decree. There is no way around it without diminishing the all knowing nature of God.

God chose the gospel as his means of saving the elect. There is nothing pointless about that as it is for his own glory and purposes. Not ours.

Not really its how your interpretation designed it. My God chose all who believes to be saved. Otherwise all scripture saying to believe or have faith is redundant and yall calling God illogical to have that in scripture if really we have no choice to believe.

God is a logical God so him saying to believe and have faith is asking people to choose truth over world.

 

[preacher4truth]

Idk about that life would be pointless then. God creates human, God predetermined human, God chose humans to go to hell or heaven, and so he foreknows who is chosen?

Of course God foreknows who is chosen. You struggle with that truth.

Kinda pointless life.

Not at all. Neither you nor I would be here except for God. Neither you nor I would know Him except for God. Neither you nor I would experience life outside of Him. We would not know Him or salvation except for him. Life is not pointless. He has granted life, He is life, be very reverend and cautious in your word choice. Every breath you breathe is granted.

My friend right now doesn't believe in jesus even though he has heard the word. But i guess since he hasnt responded then he is predestined to hell and i should give up.

His salvation isn't up to you, it is up to God. God hasn't predestined anyone to hell, but that is another topic. He cannot believe unless God grants him faith, so of course he doesn't believe, so you need to be praying with that knowledge.

Instead of trusting in you, and in what you can do, you as well as he need to trust in God. And you need to pray for him and yourself in that sense.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Life wouldn't be pointless. It's how God designed it.

Think about it like this. Either God knew from eternity that his creation would fall and made it anyway, or God is not all knowing and had to learn who would choose him after creation. If you agree that God had exhaustive foreknowledge from eternity (before creation) and created it anyway, you have to concede that those he knew are not going to be saved were by his own decree. There is no way around it without diminishing the all knowing nature of God.

God chose the gospel as his means of saving the elect. There is nothing pointless about that as it is for his own glory and purposes. Not ours.

Also god didnt force adam and eve to eat from the tree. He saw the end process but the end process is constantly changing as God sees humans make choices. As we saw with Noah God wanted to destroy all humans because of mans choices. We saw with the Israelites Gods constant demand to repent and choose him again. And God gave them 2 choices to repent or face judgment. Meaning God was allowing free will to change mans future.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Of course God foreknows who is chosen. You struggle with that truth.



Not at all. Neither you nor I would be here except for God. Neither you nor I would know Him except for God. Neither you nor I would experience life outside of Him. We would not know Him or salvation except for him. Life is not pointless. He has granted life, He is life, be very reverend and cautious in your word choice. Every breath you breathe is granted.



His salvation isn't up to you, it is up to God. God hasn't predestined anyone to hell, but that is another topic. He cannot believe unless God grants him faith, so of course he doesn't believe, so you need to be praying with that knowledge.

Instead of trusting in you, and in what you can do, you as well as he need to trust in God. And you need to pray for him and yourself in that sense.

Dang man you would be a terrible evangelist lol. God tells us to preach his word. So i will continue telling my friend of God thanks.

 

[Ariel82]

Different spiritual gifts?

 

[ForthAngel]

Also god didnt force adam and eve to eat from the tree.

Never said he did. God didn't predestine anyone to hell as p4t has stated. He has predestined some to life.

He saw the end process but the end process is constantly changing as God sees humans make choices.

This implies that God learns. That means he doesn't have exhaustive foreknowledge. It also makes him subject to our will. He is not in heaven frantically trying to work his plans around us. It was setup and predetermined what would happen.

As we saw with Noah God wanted to destroy all humans because of mans choices. We saw with the Israelites Gods constant demand to repent and choose him again. And God gave them 2 choices to repent or face judgment. Meaning God was allowing free will to change mans future.

No, this doesn't imply free will. All things have been preordained by God. You can take Joseph and his brothers as an example. The Assyrian king as well.

Josephs brothers sold him into slavery. They had INTENT that made them guilty. Their own will was present, although their will was in bondage. Same as anyone who isn't saved. Now we get an example of man with will and intent, but what did Joseph tell them? He told them what you INTENDED for evil, God INTENDED for good.

You can see here that God's good will was not in conflict with their own evil will. This was by design. He didn't force them to do what they did, but his sovereignty was still shown through their actions. In fact, if it wasn't for God restraining the evil of man, we'd be much worse off than we are.

 

[preacher4truth]

Dang man you would be a terrible evangelist lol.

LOL!!!!

God tells us to preach his word. So i will continue telling my friend of God thanks.

Good, as I've not told you otherwise. But you're young and come to knee jerk conclusions because you know what a few verses say but not what they mean in any case.

Trust Him, that is God, and not you, nor your friends choice.

You've been given enough Scripture to show salvation isn't via man's choice, yet, you still argue to make salvation all about man choosing in spite of that and cannot refute God's revelation.

God saves. Man's choice doesn't. Take some time and read the passages given you. Read commentary on them. Type less, be quiet a lot more often, and study. It is apparent you do little study, and type way too much, or you'd be more solid in your understanding otherwise.

You're so highly influenced by Socinian Pelagianism, you will not see it. The tradition of men has blinded you, and yet you cannot refute one Scripture offered. Slow down. Type less, study more. Perhaps then you'll see you come to false conclusions and arrive at false assertions like the one where you believe I've told you not to preach the Word.

 

[limey410]

Time series -- this arrangement of past, present and future -- isn't simply the way life comes to us but is the way all things really exist. We tend to assume that the whole universe and God Himself are always moving on from a past to a future just as we are. But many learned men don't agree with that. I think it was the Theologians who first started the idea that some things are not in Time at all. Later, the Philosophers took it over. And now some of the scientists are doing the same.

Almost certainly God is not in Time. His life doesn't consist of moments following one another. If a million people are praying to Him at ten-thirty tonight, He hasn't got to listen to them all in that one little snippet which we call "ten-thirty." Ten-thirty, and every other moment from the beginning to the end of the world, is always the Present for Him. If you like to put it that way, He has infinity in which to listen to the split second of prayer put up by a pilot as his plane crashes in flames.

That's difficult, I know. Can I try to give something, not the same, but a bit like it. Suppose I'm writing a novel. I write "Mary laid down her book; next moment came a knock at the door." For Mary, who's got to live in the imaginary time of the story, there's no interval between putting down the book and hearing the knock. But I, her creator, between writing the first part of that sentence and the second, may have gone out for an hour's walk and spent the whole hour thinking about Mary. I know that's not a perfect example, but it may just give a glimpse of what I mean. The point I want to drive home is that God has infinite attention, infinite leisure to spare for each one of us. He doesn't have to take us in the line. You're as much alone with Him as if you were the only thing He'd ever created.

C.S. Lewis


To me this explanation deeply pictures God as the reader of your life story. God isnt all controlling but limits his power to respect our free will. God can see your life birth to death. Not saying God doesnt ever intervene in our lives because he does. God wont stop you from drinking but your liver will. God may persuade you to stop with all his controlled capabilities but ultimately wont force you.

And so God can see if your death was from drinking but God also can see you make a decision today to stop. Therfore changing your story as he reads it. But ultimately God can see all.

To me this is how if all are called to be saved he predestinedly knows who will be written in the book of life. Not choosing a select group but he can already see the deaths of everyone.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

Yes, we are not all little chess pieces in Gods game, he participates in our lives as He dwells within us, but He absolutely respects (or at least allows) us to choose and make mistakes, He can use our suffering and short falls/mistakes for His gain or purpose and for our growth and maturity, but He is not the "great manipulator".

Well said Roughsoul1991, I think I have agreed with you 3 times now. See we can surely find common ground.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

LOL!!!!




Good, as I've not told you otherwise. But you're young and come to knee jerk conclusions because you know what a few verses say but not what they mean in any case.

Trust Him, that is God, and not you, nor your friends choice.

You've been given enough Scripture to show salvation isn't via man's choice, yet, you still argue to make salvation all about man choosing in spite of that and cannot refute God's revelation.

God saves. Man's choice doesn't. Take some time and read the passages given you. Read commentary on them. Type less, be quiet a lot more often, and study. It is apparent you do little study, and type way too much, or you'd be more solid in your understanding otherwise.

You're so highly influenced by Socinian Pelagianism, you will not see it. The tradition of men has blinded you, and yet you cannot refute one Scripture offered. Slow down. Type less, study more. Perhaps then you'll see you come to false conclusions and arrive at false assertions like the one where you believe I've told you not to preach the Word.

Everything you have said to me on so and so scripture was just your interpretation while some commentary can say differently so im not really worried about debating. I see the same scriptures but my beliefs of the meaning of those scriptures are based off my time thread. After all we also have scripture telling us God is patient in his judgment so that all may have a chance to come to repentance.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Yes, we are not all little chess pieces in Gods game, he participates in our lives as He dwells within us, but He absolutely respects (or at least allows) us to choose and make mistakes, He can use our suffering and short falls/mistakes for His gain or purpose and for our growth and maturity, but He is not the "great manipulator".

Well said Roughsoul1991, I think I have agreed with you 3 times now. See we can surely find common ground.

Man if your not careful we may be debating folks together lol.

I believe we Christians can agree on the core concepts but after that people interpret scripture all different ways and then proclaim im right your wrong.

So really everyone's belief is great and i am in no seat to judge it. What only matters is what i believe has scripture, evidence, research, elders, and Spirit to back what i believe. Thats all that matters to anyone. Its just funny we all think we have evidence but the matter of complications is we have evidence but some things are hard to understand so we explain thing's into utter nonsense. When scripture is obvious in itself.

Teachings of evil also has corrupted the message in many ways throughout history by human doctrines we dont even know how bad it is. We all claim to know truth but we only know what our current level of awareness allows us to know.

Some are more spiritual, some are more depending on God, some are smarter and struggle with human intelligence vs Godly wisdom. Some are more slower and see scripture more as a child would see scripture.

We are all different reading the same book but get 100s of different beliefs. Each person here im sure can find one area they disagree on with someone else.

So i dont worry about this too much because God has led me to my belief, God has been active in my life so why would i not trust what God has told me.

Thats the only one i can trust. Thats why i had read the bible before believing anything and let God speak to me in scripture. It just so happens after i did this my beliefs matched others who believe the same. Not that i chose their belief but God led me to my initial belief that has remained true.

So its hard for me to take people who see their view as superior to others seriously. God led me to my belief that differs from theirs so i would rather trust God especially if my beliefs are logical, reasonable and explainable. Has others who saw the same belief and my spirit agrees with my inner feelings of right and wrong.

 

[JohnTalmid]

I've never said you must work to save yourself I've said other words you misunderstood. I haven't even jumped the gun. I don't need to assume that you are under a curse because you believe that the law is done away with. I have not come to do away with the law. He filled it with himself. If you think I'm being rude just wait until you meet Him.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Never said he did. God didn't predestine anyone to hell as p4t has stated. He has predestined some to life.



This implies that God learns. That means he doesn't have exhaustive foreknowledge. It also makes him subject to our will. He is not in heaven frantically trying to work his plans around us. It was setup and predetermined what would happen.



No, this doesn't imply free will. All things have been preordained by God. You can take Joseph and his brothers as an example. The Assyrian king as well.

Josephs brothers sold him into slavery. They had INTENT that made them guilty. Their own will was present, although their will was in bondage. Same as anyone who isn't saved. Now we get an example of man with will and intent, but what did Joseph tell them? He told them what you INTENDED for evil, God INTENDED for good.

You can see here that God's good will was not in conflict with their own evil will. This was by design. He didn't force them to do what they did, but his sovereignty was still shown through their actions. In fact, if it wasn't for God restraining the evil of man, we'd be much worse off than we are.

God didn't predestine anyone to hell as p4t has stated. He has predestined some to life.

And what happens to those who are not predestined to life?

 

[ForthAngel]

And what happens to those who are not predestined to life?

Is this a serious question? They are judged and sentenced to hell. It's what we all deserve, but God in his mercy and wishing to be glorified and worshiped, wishing to show his love and grace has chosen a people out of the world and called them to him through Christ. It's not by merit, not for anything they have done. It's only by God and his mercy and for his purposes.

You may decide this is unfair. What's unfair about it? The fair thing to do would be for God to let us rot in our sins and sentence us all to hell. He owes us nothing.

Do you believe the bible when it says God chose a people (Israel)? What happened to the rest of the nations? Why was it okay for him to single out an entire people group in the Old Testament, but somehow it's wrong in the new? What about people who never hear the Gospel? What do you think happens to them? Why didn't God give them a chance to make a choice?

You have to understand that we are fallen creatures, are accountable for our sinful nature, and God owes us nothing. Our will, according to scripture, is in bondage to sin. The lost man is a slave to his sin and will not, because he can not, choose God. He will always choose sin unless God intervenes. The lost man is dead in his sins. A dead man cannot bring himself back to life. This is expressed over and over in scripture.

Salvation by grace through faith which is the gift of God is one of the greatest displays of God's power in the bible and is a bonafide miracle as it quite literally defies nature.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Is this a serious question? They are judged and sentenced to hell. It's what we all deserve, but God in his mercy and wishing to be glorified and worshiped, wishing to show his love and grace has chosen a people out of the world and called them to him through Christ. It's not by merit, not for anything they have done. It's only by God and his mercy and for his purposes.

You may decide this is unfair. What's unfair about it? The fair thing to do would be for God to let us rot in our sins and sentence us all to hell. He owes us nothing.

Do you believe the bible when it says God chose a people (Israel)? What happened to the rest of the nations? Why was it okay for him to single out an entire people group in the Old Testament, but somehow it's wrong in the new? What about people who never hear the Gospel? What do you think happens to them? Why didn't God give them a chance to make a choice?

You have to understand that we are fallen creatures, are accountable for our sinful nature, and God owes us nothing. Our will, according to scripture, is in bondage to sin. The lost man is a slave to his sin and will not, because he can not, choose God. He will always choose sin unless God intervenes. The lost man is dead in his sins. A dead man cannot bring himself back to life. This is expressed over and over in scripture.

Salvation by grace through faith which is the gift of God is one of the greatest displays of God's power in the bible and is a bonafide miracle as it quite literally defies nature.

You say this

God didn't predestine anyone to hell as p4t has stated. He has predestined some to life.

But then by implying that God predestined some to life, then how can you not say he didnt predestined some for hell?

Just sounds contradicting.