Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
We do works before AND after we're saved. To me, good works is helping people. Whether it's volunteering somewhere,mowing someone's lawn, etc... Those are works. Are they needed FOR salvation? NO. Are they needed to KEEP salvation? NO. However, we are to continue to do good works, because it is a command of God. 
NOT because we are hoping to maintain or receive salvation.
NOT because we are hoping to maintain or receive salvation.
AMEN.....saved UNTO good works.....not SAVED BY good works......
You know gb9, I've read along and agree with what you've been saying.
But the above comment is very demeaning.
First of all, the WE and the THEY would not be very appreciated by Jesus who said that we should all be of like mind.
Need verses?
1 Corinthians 1:1-13
Ephesians 4:3-6
John 17:20.21
and more.
I'd say the same for "the works crowd". How would you like to b called the "no works crowd". It's silly to say the least.
And why would you think that you've read through the bible and not the Others. This assumes that you are correct and the "Others" are not. When I could list many, many verses to support my position that works are necessary.
And anyway, if you all seem to agree that works ARE necessary, why even discuss this?
We are one Group, Christian, who might disagree as to wording or a small nuance or a big doctrine. But we could respect each other, I think.
But the above comment is very demeaning.
First of all, the WE and the THEY would not be very appreciated by Jesus who said that we should all be of like mind.
Need verses?
1 Corinthians 1:1-13
Ephesians 4:3-6
John 17:20.21
and more.
I'd say the same for "the works crowd". How would you like to b called the "no works crowd". It's silly to say the least.
And why would you think that you've read through the bible and not the Others. This assumes that you are correct and the "Others" are not. When I could list many, many verses to support my position that works are necessary.
And anyway, if you all seem to agree that works ARE necessary, why even discuss this?
We are one Group, Christian, who might disagree as to wording or a small nuance or a big doctrine. But we could respect each other, I think.
You really have know idea what you are talking about.
If what you are saying why is only a remnant of Israel saved
9:27–29 Isa 10:22–23 and 1:9 (see NIV text notes here) indicate that only a small remnant will survive from the great multitude of Israelites. God’s calling includes both Jews and Gentiles (see v. 24), but the vast majority are Gentiles, as v. 30 suggests.
So Zacchaeus is not saved because he us the seed of Abraham and therefore Abrahams faith is credited to all of Israel.
Abraham was a main of faith and so was Zacchaeus therefore saved by faith.
Jesus said he had to back the Father so the Holy Spirit must come to convict the world of its sin.
That sin was unbelief in him.
Note he did not say "So that Holy Spirit must come to convict those that are not Abraham'a seed cause their works save them (remember Israel was under the law)
So its the world and all its inhabitants that need to repent of sin of unbelief and turn to Jesus. That's Jew's and Gentiles.
Secondly you are comment "Keel arguing in favour of sin"
Please show me any quote I have made arguing in favour of sin.
I don't think you will find one.
That being the case you are calling me a heretic by definition.
Accustory and lying.
Therefore please stop accusing me and others like me that you say are arguing in favour of sin when we are not.
Maybe you need to change your glasses.
If what you are saying why is only a remnant of Israel saved
9:27–29 Isa 10:22–23 and 1:9 (see NIV text notes here) indicate that only a small remnant will survive from the great multitude of Israelites. God’s calling includes both Jews and Gentiles (see v. 24), but the vast majority are Gentiles, as v. 30 suggests.
So Zacchaeus is not saved because he us the seed of Abraham and therefore Abrahams faith is credited to all of Israel.
Abraham was a main of faith and so was Zacchaeus therefore saved by faith.
Jesus said he had to back the Father so the Holy Spirit must come to convict the world of its sin.
That sin was unbelief in him.
Note he did not say "So that Holy Spirit must come to convict those that are not Abraham'a seed cause their works save them (remember Israel was under the law)
So its the world and all its inhabitants that need to repent of sin of unbelief and turn to Jesus. That's Jew's and Gentiles.
Secondly you are comment "Keel arguing in favour of sin"
Please show me any quote I have made arguing in favour of sin.
I don't think you will find one.
That being the case you are calling me a heretic by definition.
Accustory and lying.
Therefore please stop accusing me and others like me that you say are arguing in favour of sin when we are not.
Maybe you need to change your glasses.
Well, you don't lose salvation by not working. There could be a reason why you don't do any works. If you're not doing them because you've abandoned God that's a Whole different matter.
However, I'd like to ask you what Holy or Holiness means. You've used the word a few times.
What does it mean to you to be holy?
However, I'd like to ask you what Holy or Holiness means. You've used the word a few times.
What does it mean to you to be holy?
W
Philippians 2-12,13
It’s the influencing power of grace combined with man’s faith, for we are workers together with God.
The principles of man working together with God are plastered all over the text from Genesis to Revelation.
Here is an excellent example given by Paul in the letter to the Philippians.
2-12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, workout you own salvation with fear and trembling (fear of God; in that it’s a fearful thing to fall in the judgement hands of the living God, for the wrath of God remains on the children of disobedience)
13 “for it is Him that worketh (energeo) in you both to will and to do His good pleasure”
These two verses are in harmony with the working dynamics of grace and faith found in Eph. 2-8..Man strives to enter working out his part by a faithfulness to God that works by love and does no ill to His neighbor. And God energizes that faith with the working dynamic of grace. The conduit is faith and the energizing power (“energeo” in the Greek) that is delivered through the conduit is the power of God’s grace, the Spirit of grace. (empowerment of the Spirit to live godly) Titus 2-12,13,14. It’s always saved by His grace coupled with our faith. And remember no one can save themselves for only God can forgive past sins through the blood atonement of Christ. Likewise God can’t just save anyone without their consent. Man must repent and come clean with Him first in that they might be saved by His mercy. It’s called conditional covenant of redemption theology, not Penal Substitution theology, the two are as different as night and day. Again man is a worker together with God to bring about a fellowship of love that cannot be achieved by any other means…. It’s the very essence of COVENANT, for man MUST enter into a covenant relationship with God in order to be saved..Who are those that are being saved? Those that obey God and hold fast to His conditional requirements of salvation...
The false pundits would have you believe its an unconditional covenant. Yes, their version is the reformatted Penal Substitution. What they really mean is that Jesus did it all for you and you do nothing concerning ones salvation. This is why they fail to understand what Jesus meant when He said “it is finished”..Jesus meant the way of salvation through the New Covenant had now been established, and not that He did everything/obeyed for you.
It’s the influencing power of grace combined with man’s faith, for we are workers together with God.
The principles of man working together with God are plastered all over the text from Genesis to Revelation.
Here is an excellent example given by Paul in the letter to the Philippians.
2-12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, workout you own salvation with fear and trembling (fear of God; in that it’s a fearful thing to fall in the judgement hands of the living God, for the wrath of God remains on the children of disobedience)
13 “for it is Him that worketh (energeo) in you both to will and to do His good pleasure”
These two verses are in harmony with the working dynamics of grace and faith found in Eph. 2-8..Man strives to enter working out his part by a faithfulness to God that works by love and does no ill to His neighbor. And God energizes that faith with the working dynamic of grace. The conduit is faith and the energizing power (“energeo” in the Greek) that is delivered through the conduit is the power of God’s grace, the Spirit of grace. (empowerment of the Spirit to live godly) Titus 2-12,13,14. It’s always saved by His grace coupled with our faith. And remember no one can save themselves for only God can forgive past sins through the blood atonement of Christ. Likewise God can’t just save anyone without their consent. Man must repent and come clean with Him first in that they might be saved by His mercy. It’s called conditional covenant of redemption theology, not Penal Substitution theology, the two are as different as night and day. Again man is a worker together with God to bring about a fellowship of love that cannot be achieved by any other means…. It’s the very essence of COVENANT, for man MUST enter into a covenant relationship with God in order to be saved..Who are those that are being saved? Those that obey God and hold fast to His conditional requirements of salvation...
The false pundits would have you believe its an unconditional covenant. Yes, their version is the reformatted Penal Substitution. What they really mean is that Jesus did it all for you and you do nothing concerning ones salvation. This is why they fail to understand what Jesus meant when He said “it is finished”..Jesus meant the way of salvation through the New Covenant had now been established, and not that He did everything/obeyed for you.
Let's see, what good works have I done lately? I put money outside for someone to find, I held open a door at the bank for a wheelchair person, and I left a dollar at the bus stop. I took out my neighbor's trash. I gave up my seat on the bus to an older person with groceries. Will any of these nice things I did get me into heaven? Nope, nope, and nope.. LOL
So someday when I see Jesus and say, "but Lord, I did this, this, that, this and this", Jesus will look at me and say, "while good works were nice to do for others, they were NOT necessary to get into heaven".
Those who boast of their works, will NOT impress Jesus.
Many atheists do good works but are not going to heaven. I would say that maybe they're doing more than I am.
But once we're saved, and Jesus Himself said to DO, and He's God on earth, are we not to listen to Him?
You said that it's sin that would keep us out of heave, not the absence of good works.
I agree.
But what is sin? Is sin not missing the mark? Is sin not doing God's will?
So if Jesus clearly tells us to do certain things, like feed the hungry, Mathew 25:35 for instance, isn't it a sin if we don't do it?
There are sins of commission - stealing - and there are sins of omission - not feeding the poor,
Is not feeding the poor a sin?
Aren't we supposed to be doing what Jesus said?
2:12 Therefore: Paul desires the Philippians to respond positively to his admonition to have the mind of Christ (vv. 5–8). The command is to the entire group since the word you is plural. The subject is their mutual, corporate salvation (see 1:19, 28; Luke 22:24–30). work out: The Greek term speaks of the present deliverance of the Philippians. The word translated work out is used by the first-century author Strabo to speak of digging silver out of silver mines. Thus salvation can be compared to a huge gift that needs to be unwrapped for one’s thorough enjoyment. Note that Paul is encouraging the Philippians to develop and work out their salvation, but not to work for their salvation.
That's a bit different from your synopsis of v12.
Listen I am not saying that works/fruit should not accompany our salvation. They should and if they are not we should pulling people aside and asking why and seeking reasons why.
I am saying works on their own will not save a person.
Interesting post.
Zeccheus was not saved because he did good works. He was a tax collector. And his neighbors believed him to be a sinner.
Luke 19:7
This day salvation comes to your house means that JESUS was going to his house that day and Jesus IS salvation.
Luke 19:10 Jesus says that He came to seek and to save that which was LOST.
Which Zaccaias are you speaking of??
I'd like to add that persons who do good works, even though they are not saved, will be more prone to come to believe than those who do not. This is a very general statement and there are any exceptions.
Zeccheus was not saved because he did good works. He was a tax collector. And his neighbors believed him to be a sinner.
Luke 19:7
This day salvation comes to your house means that JESUS was going to his house that day and Jesus IS salvation.
Luke 19:10 Jesus says that He came to seek and to save that which was LOST.
Which Zaccaias are you speaking of??
I'd like to add that persons who do good works, even though they are not saved, will be more prone to come to believe than those who do not. This is a very general statement and there are any exceptions.
You didn't answer to 1 Corinthians 9:27 but instead gave me a new verse.
If we're just going to throw verses back and forth, I dismiss myself because we get nowhere.
How about giving me the verse in Galatians? I know it, but it would be nice if we posted scripture and spoke about it instead of just giving our opinions back and forth...
If we're just going to throw verses back and forth, I dismiss myself because we get nowhere.
How about giving me the verse in Galatians? I know it, but it would be nice if we posted scripture and spoke about it instead of just giving our opinions back and forth...
Some had works of wood, hay and stubble ---- unfaithful
If you need FAITH to be saved
And they were UNFAITHFUL
HOW could they still be saved, as you state?
You have faith ---------- You're saved.
You don't have faith ---- You're not saved.
BTW, the scripture is 1 Corinthians 3:11-15
And how would you explain 2 Corinthians 5:10-11?
If you need FAITH to be saved
And they were UNFAITHFUL
HOW could they still be saved, as you state?
You have faith ---------- You're saved.
You don't have faith ---- You're not saved.
BTW, the scripture is 1 Corinthians 3:11-15
And how would you explain 2 Corinthians 5:10-11?
Here is what the NKV study notes say
9:27 I myself should become disqualified: The Greek word for disqualified means “disapproved after testing.” Although some have cited this verse as evidence that Christians can lose their salvation, this clause most likely does not refer to salvation. A careful distinction should be made between the prize and the gift
The free gift of justification cannot be the result of good works (see Rom. 4:1–8). However the prize or crown is the reward for endurance and suffering for the cause of Christ (see Phil. 1:29; 2 Tim. 2:12).
I think a lot believe that Paul was also talking about losing his calling to preach to the Gentiles, his calling.
He is misinterpreting the scripture of wood and gold.
If you read it in context its plain as day he isnt talking about salvation. But simply rewards in heaven. To make this fit into a salvation debate is taking it out of context.
Every commentary i have read about this verse is speaking to Pastors and their work in the church successful or not. If they laid the true foundation and then tried to lead their church in truth their work will one day be tested.
If you read it in context its plain as day he isnt talking about salvation. But simply rewards in heaven. To make this fit into a salvation debate is taking it out of context.
Every commentary i have read about this verse is speaking to Pastors and their work in the church successful or not. If they laid the true foundation and then tried to lead their church in truth their work will one day be tested.
Fran, we ALL sin. We all fall short of God's glory. Do we sin because we WANT to? No, we sin because we live in an evil, fallen world, and we are human. True, we are commanded to do good works throughout our time here on earth, but we are not to do them for the sole purpose of trying to "earn" our way to heaven via good works.. Whatever we do to others, be it cooking them a meal, shoveling their walk, etc, those are the things we do for Jesus. In essence, we are showing Jesus' love for others through doing for others..
Now, let's say that after you get saved, then you don't do good works for anyone. Does that mean that you aren't still saved? No, it doesn't. Does it mean that you'll lose your salvation? No. Does it mean that you won't go to heaven? NO. It just means that by not doing for others, you are serving yourself instead of Jesus. Will Jesus ask you why you didn't do good works for others? Most likely, yes He will.
To answer your question about whether we're supposed to do what Jesus says. Yes, of course. But do we always? Nope, because we get selfish, or lazy or proud and we do only for ourselves.. God knows we will stumble in what He asks of us, but all He asks is that we merely TRY.
Now, let's say that after you get saved, then you don't do good works for anyone. Does that mean that you aren't still saved? No, it doesn't. Does it mean that you'll lose your salvation? No. Does it mean that you won't go to heaven? NO.
It just means that by not doing for others, you are serving yourself instead of Jesus. Will Jesus ask you why you didn't do good works for others? Most likely, yes He will. To answer your question about whether we're supposed to do what Jesus says. Yes, of course. But do we always? Nope, because we get selfish, or lazy or proud and we do only for ourselves.. God knows we will stumble in what He asks of us, but all He asks is that we merely TRY.
1 Corinthians 9:27 has absolutely nothing to do with losing one's salvation. Paul in context is talking about his ministry and keeping his body under his subjection lest he be disqualified or rejected from doing his ministry of preaching the gospel.
1 Corinthians 9:16-27 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For if I preach the gospel, I have nothing to boast of, for I am under compulsion; for woe is me if I do not preach the gospel.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For if I do this voluntarily, I have a reward; but if against my will, I have a stewardship entrusted to me.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] What then is my reward? That, when I preach the gospel, I may offer the gospel without charge, so as not to make full use of my right in the gospel.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;
[SUP]21 [/SUP] to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some.
[SUP]23 [/SUP] I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.
[SUP]25 [/SUP] Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
[SUP]26 [/SUP] Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
[SUP]27[/SUP] but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.
The greek word for "disqualified" means to be "rejected" or "disqualified". It is also used for those who have a "rejected" mind in Romans 1:28 as well as those that have been rejected or disqualified because Christ is not in them to begin with. 2 Cor. 13:5,6,7
The word is used for being "rejected " from doing good works in Titus 1:16
We do not "qualify" ourselves for eternal life. Christ Himself is our life from what He has done for us.
The Father is the One who qualifies us.
Colossians 1:12 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.
1 Corinthians 9:16-27 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For if I preach the gospel, I have nothing to boast of, for I am under compulsion; for woe is me if I do not preach the gospel.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For if I do this voluntarily, I have a reward; but if against my will, I have a stewardship entrusted to me.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] What then is my reward? That, when I preach the gospel, I may offer the gospel without charge, so as not to make full use of my right in the gospel.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;
[SUP]21 [/SUP] to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some.
[SUP]23 [/SUP] I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.
[SUP]25 [/SUP] Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
[SUP]26 [/SUP] Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
[SUP]27[/SUP] but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.
The greek word for "disqualified" means to be "rejected" or "disqualified". It is also used for those who have a "rejected" mind in Romans 1:28 as well as those that have been rejected or disqualified because Christ is not in them to begin with. 2 Cor. 13:5,6,7
The word is used for being "rejected " from doing good works in Titus 1:16
We do not "qualify" ourselves for eternal life. Christ Himself is our life from what He has done for us.
The Father is the One who qualifies us.
Colossians 1:12 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.
Fran, we ALL sin. We all fall short of God's glory. Do we sin because we WANT to? No, we sin because we live in an evil, fallen world, and we are human. True, we are commanded to do good works throughout our time here on earth, but we are not to do them for the sole purpose of trying to "earn" our way to heaven via good works.. Whatever we do to others, be it cooking them a meal, shoveling their walk, etc, those are the things we do for Jesus. In essence, we are showing Jesus' love for others through doing for others..
Now, let's say that after you get saved, then you don't do good works for anyone. Does that mean that you aren't still saved? No, it doesn't. Does it mean that you'll lose your salvation? No. Does it mean that you won't go to heaven? NO. It just means that by not doing for others, you are serving yourself instead of Jesus. Will Jesus ask you why you didn't do good works for others? Most likely, yes He will.
To answer your question about whether we're supposed to do what Jesus says. Yes, of course. But do we always? Nope, because we get selfish, or lazy or proud and we do only for ourselves.. God knows we will stumble in what He asks of us, but all He asks is that we merely TRY.
Now, let's say that after you get saved, then you don't do good works for anyone. Does that mean that you aren't still saved? No, it doesn't. Does it mean that you'll lose your salvation? No. Does it mean that you won't go to heaven? NO.
It just means that by not doing for others, you are serving yourself instead of Jesus. Will Jesus ask you why you didn't do good works for others? Most likely, yes He will. To answer your question about whether we're supposed to do what Jesus says. Yes, of course. But do we always? Nope, because we get selfish, or lazy or proud and we do only for ourselves.. God knows we will stumble in what He asks of us, but all He asks is that we merely TRY.