The Law of Moses Has Not Been Abolished

[Johnny_B]

Lol at some point I'm sure some will conclude that not even Christ's words really matter that much, and that we can essentially remove the gospels and the book of Revelation from the scriptures along with the "abolished" old testament. Might as well add the book of James to that list of abolished texts too.

None of what any of them, including Christ, has "said" really needs to be followed at all. Because in some way it doesn't apply anymore, whether before the cross or after it, whether from the old testament or new...or they didn't really know how to communicate a concept plainly. Oh and let's remove Hebrews' final instructions to believers while were at it. No, throw out everything that in any way says anything contrary to the following:

"In the beginning God tried something and then failed...

Then he picked a people and tried something else, then it failed...

Then he wasted a lot of time saying a lot of things that didn't really matter...

...making a lot of bold statements that don't really apply...

Then his son came and did the same exact thing...like father like son.

Then his apostles followed him saying a lot of stuff that doesn't really matter either...oh except for Paul. Some of his stuff applies, but not other stuff.

Then God said some more stuff that he sent to his servant John though his son, that he doesn't really know how to say. Most of which doesn't really matter anyway...

All that's required is mental ascent of what God did through his son. Now go live whatever life your heart leads you to live because to even attempt anything else for the love of God, anything at all, rejects what God did and sends you to hell."

----

I mean if we took a person who has never been exposed to any doctrine regarding God or Christ and then gave them a bible to carefully read from the first book to the last, are we really saying that they'd reach the same conclusion as what I wrote above? After carefully reading *everything*?

Come on...lol

I hope not, it would depend, if God enlightened their hearts through circumcision by the Spirit and they come to the knowledge of the truth.

Romans 2:20, 29, 3:20 "having in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth...........circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit......since through the law comes knowledge of sin."

 

[Locutus]

What do you render unto Caesar?

Salad??

 

[NickT]

Someone hasn't read Hebrews.

 

[Rondonmon]

You are mistaken. The spring festivals correspond with the first coming of Jesus Christ, whereas the autumn festivals correspond with his SECOND COMING. Did it not occur to you that there is a correlation between Jesus Christ coming with the sound of trumpet in correlation with the Festival of Trumpets, which then coincide with the seven trumpets of Revelation? And 10 days after the first trumpet is sounded, then is the Day of Atonement when the elect are gathered. As such, these festivals are NOT yet fulfilled, so therefore, the Law is not yet fulfilled. Hence why Jesus Christ said, UNTIL heaven and earth passes away, not one jot or one tittle will fall from the law, UNTIL EVERYTHING IS ACCOMPLISHED.

That is what I stated also what were you reading? The Three Spring Feasts were fulfilled by Jesus, the PENTECOST is the Church age, and The Trumpet ends the CHURCH AGE and Begins Daniels 70th Week.

Jesus Christs voice is said to Sound like a TRUMPET in many places. The SEVEN TRUMPETS in Revelation have NOTHING to do with this, why people make that leap just dumbfounds me. This is THE RAPTURE, when the Time of the Gentiles is over the Church will be taken to Heaven to marry the Lamb, in a Mansion he has built for us in his FATHERS HOUSE. You being Jewish should know the Jewish tradition is the Bride and Groom stay in the Bridal Chamber for Seven Days (7 Years in Heaven) and the Groom only comes when the father tells him to come. So he knows not the day nor the hour.

The Heaven and earth passing away has nothing to do with what Jesus meant. You are misreading it.

 

[Johnny_B]

"He has abolished the Law with its commandments and ordinances, that He might create in Himself one new humanity in place of the two, thus making peace" Ephesians 2:15

Let's look at it in context. Ephesians 2:13-16 "But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility."

He abolished commands expressed in ordinances or the legal demands. Colossians 2:13-15 "And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.15 He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him."

Romans 2:17-20, 29, 3:9, 19-20 "But if you call yourself a Jew and rely on the law and boast in God18 and know his will and approve what is excellent, because you are instructed from the law;19 and if you are sure that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness,20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of children, having in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth.....29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.....9 What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin,....19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God.20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin."

The wall of separation has been broken down, by abolishing the legal demands of the Law, the ceremonial part of the Law was abolished in Christ for us. But not the moral or judicial part of the Law. It's still not okay to murder, commit adultery, steal, to tell lies, disrespect parents, specially for Christians. With us it's the Spirit's leading that helps us from doing those things. If we want to teach others or bring light to those in darkness or help bring sight to the blind, we need to instruct them in the Law so that they can come to a knowledge of sin. Because the world in under sin, having in the Law the embodiment of knowledge and truth, we instruct those so that God may grant them repentance, by the circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit.

So the Law is not abolished, as in done away, only it's legal record or accounting of our sins, to those that are predestined, He calls and is justified by God through faith, and by faith they walk in the works God has prepared for them, those He also glorified or gave to them a glorified body. We do not live under the Law, it guides us in righteousness, but it does not justify us. In Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile, because He has broken down the wall of separation.

 

[Desertsrose]

A Chart Comparing and Contrasting the Teaching of Paul and James​

Paul and James did not contradict each other; but rather they complemented each other. What both men wrote was inspired by God (2 Tim. 3:16) and true. Paul’s focus was on the unsaved man and how he might get right with God. James’ focus was on the saved person and how he might show his faith and demonstrate the reality of his faith.
[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 50%"]

Paul’s Teaching​

[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 50%"]

James’ Teaching​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 50%"]You cannot be saved by works
(Ephesians 2:8-9)[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 50%"]You cannot show that you are saved without works (James 2:14,18)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 50%"]How can a person be saved?


By faith alone (Rom. 3:28)[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 50%"]How can a person show that he is saved? How can he “show his faith”?

Only by works (James 2:18)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 50%"]Faith without works saves
(Romans 3:28)
This is a living faith (saving faith)[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 50%"]Faith without works does not save
(James 2:14)
This is a dead faith (James 2:17,20,26)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 50%"]Faith alone saves[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 50%"]The faith that saves is not alone[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 50%"]A person is not saved by works
(“works” are rejected by Paul as the means of salvation: it is wrong to say that a person must do good works in order to be saved)

These are meritorious works, that is, works done to try to merit or earn salvation[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 50%"]A saved person will perform good works
(“works” are understood by James to be the result of salvation: a person does good works because he is saved)


These are faith works, that is, works that spring from a faith that is real and living.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 50%"]Paul agreed with James

He taught that good works must accompany saving faith (Eph. 2:10; Tit. 3:8; Gal. 5:6; Phil. 2:11-12).[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 50%"]James agreed with Paul

He taught that a person inherits the kingdom only by faith (James 2:5) and that Abraham was justified by faith (2:23)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 50%"]Paul used the example of Abraham when he first believed in God (Rom. 4:3 and compare Genesis 15:6).[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 50%"]James used the example of Abraham when his faith was tested by God, about 40 years later (James 2:21 and compare Genesis 22)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 50%"]The error Paul corrected:
Salvation is by the works of the law (the error of legalism)[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 50%"]The error that James corrected:
Works are unnecessary after a person is saved (the error of antinomianism)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 50%"]Paul wrote about how a guilty sinner may be justified before God.[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 50%"]James wrote about how a believer can show that his faith is genuine (justification or vindication before men)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 100%, colspan: 2"]At the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15 the key issue was that salvation is by grace through faith and not by the works of the law. See the error in Acts 15:1 and Peter’s conclusion in Acts 15:9,11. James, who took a lead role in this discussion never voiced any disagreement with Peter or Paul over this crucial matter.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 50%"]Paul’s perspective: He was viewing the guilty sinner who needed to be right with God. (The sinner is in view)[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 50%"]James’ perspective: He was viewing the believer (or professing believer) who needed to demonstrate that his faith was real. (The believer is in view)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Justification by Faith - Did James Contradict Paul​

Love this, Magenta! Thanks, it's a keeper!!!

 

[Grandpa]

and we let the Most High work in us by teaching others to not follow the example of Jesus?

You can either perpetuate the error of the ancient people before you or you can come to Christ to receive rest.

Its up to you.

Well, supposedly, according to carnal men.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The Law of Moses has not been abolished, because heaven and earth has not yet passed away, hence "unit heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or tittle will pass away from the Law..." and "whoever sets aside the least of the commands, will be called least...". Even Paul says, "we do not nullify the Law by this faith, but we uphold the Law". Let's start a discussion on these matters.

it has not been abolished.

You have two choices.

Christ (the end of the law)

or the law. (which means you better be perfect, or start animal sacrifices and pray God will accept them)

there is no other way Biblically to heaven.

 

[Grandpa]

[SUP]10 [/SUP]And ye shall eat old store, and bring forth the old because of the new.

2 Corinthians 3:6-11
[FONT=&quot]6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.[/FONT]

 

[MadebyHim]

Its the Law of the Almighty that He gave to Moses, God is the one that used His finger, the same finger He used for the writing on the wall. It has not been abolished, Christ is not going to say something to Moses one day then tell others forget about it , i didn't mean that for you, a few thousand years later.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Its the Law of the Almighty that He gave to Moses, God is the one that used His finger, the same finger He used for the writing on the wall. It has not been abolished, Christ is not going to say something to Moses one day then tell others forget about it , i didn't mean that for you, a few thousand years later.

Show me one person who by obeying the law became a righteous person (able to stand on his own)

I read the OT I see a bunch of sinners called saints,, But I do not see one person who by the law became righteous people..

 

[Grandpa]

Its the Law of the Almighty that He gave to Moses, God is the one that used His finger, the same finger He used for the writing on the wall. It has not been abolished, Christ is not going to say something to Moses one day then tell others forget about it , i didn't mean that for you, a few thousand years later.

Why wouldn't HE?

If people are too stupid to realize that they can't do what He has commanded then the only option available is to scrap the Old Way and establish a New One.

 

[MadebyHim]

If someone all alone in the wilderness found a bible and started reading from Genesis, wouldn't it be confusing for them to think the same some are taught. Seems like they would see bible for what it says, and not the common interpretation.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Why wouldn't HE?

If people are too stupid to realize that they can't do what He has commanded then the only option available is to scrap the Old Way and establish a New One.

which, if I read the bible right, Is exactly why God gave us the first one, so we would be ready when the new one arrived.

Sadly, they misunderstood the old one, and were not ready when the new one arrived, because they did not think they needed him, And even today, Long after the new one arrived, people are still trying to establish the old one.. because they misunderstand the purpose it was given, just like the jew in Jesus day

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If someone all alone in the wilderness found a bible and started reading from Genesis, wouldn't it be confusing for them to think the same some are taught. Seems like they would see bible for what it says, and not the common interpretation.

I agree,, they would not see it like so many are taught today. And they would understand like David did, Sacrifice and burnt offering God did not desire.. He understood the law could not save him, All it could do is condemn him, God had to save him..

 

[slave]

I don't think you were called to take away the sin of the world.

Maybe just be grateful and let God work in you instead of thinking you can do a better job by emulation.

So how did you receive the point of Jaybird's comment, that he didn't agree with you about sin? What he said was the message that the gospel gives us; the very essence of what the Scripture's message is.! And he said it accurately to a tee. How did your spirit miss it?

Jesus came to make right our relationship with God by laying payment thru His own blood on a Cross, He now is our bridge to having a pure relationship once again, starting from innocence and equipping us to remain that way, this relationship doesn't start after we die, it starts on day one of Salvation, and isn't that awesome! Smile. So, our position in His family is guaranteed by the Cross, but we still have to experience that victory for ourselves implementing all the power God has given us in Christ, otherwise we would not also realize our death that also happened on that Cross, nor would we be able to conquer our own sins ( plural; or the particulars of sin).

If I just say, "Yeah I died there, and He conquered sin (not plural) there on that Cross..." how is that our reality? But when we are asked to give God our sins ( the result of, and identifier of sin) strongholds and stand against it, being empowered by God thru Jesus Christ ---> And DO it, now it becomes our reality. God wants to show His glory in our changed behaviors, mightily so in our weak bodies. How can His purposes and intentions be served if we never actually change? If we never make all that God did that we could not, not also our reality?

How can we expect God to hear us say "No" to His sinless plan that He set in motion before we were born by-way of Jesus Christ when He sent His Son to die for that very reason? We so can live the life of Jesus Christ!!

You have broadly opened the door to Gods grace, which is true - on the Cross. Are you equally broadly opening up your heart to your death on that same Cross? It does take time to get there, but that will always be God's point in YOUR life. Any other message is not from Him.

So, Yes, you are half right! Only Jesus was pure enough to pay the price for our sins <-----(Plural), and God thru Jesus took care of sin <-------- (not plural). But now in Salvation we have been made pure and innocent, and God has placed us in Christ to do just the opposite of what your second part referred to: We are now empowered by God with Jesus sitting at the right hand of God interceding for us to stand ourselves against sin (in Christ) now. We ourselves are asked by God to be holy as Christ Jesus was holy. We ourselves are asked to sin (meaning the plural version; the particulars of sin) no more. So now the rest is up to us to accomplish. Will we in starting out struggle with this - yes! For we are still babes in Christ. Will we even struggle for a spell- yes! Because adolescence is short-sighted sometimes, will we still suffer into adulthood - we should begin not to! For by now God has been working on you to change from death to life . From the soulish-living to the Spirit-life. Now this is not chronological age, but Spiritual aging. So, God is patient and is always onward and upward in developing His children. But note this: Christ is only interested in us being a participant in the life He lived - otherwise you are at risk, even after regeneration of God's judgement. For we all die once, and are judged. Your spirit, not your soul knows that!

 

[christig]

That is what I stated also what were you reading? The Three Spring Feasts were fulfilled by Jesus, the PENTECOST is the Church age, and The Trumpet ends the CHURCH AGE and Begins Daniels 70th Week.

Jesus Christs voice is said to Sound like a TRUMPET in many places. The SEVEN TRUMPETS in Revelation have NOTHING to do with this, why people make that leap just dumbfounds me. This is THE RAPTURE, when the Time of the Gentiles is over the Church will be taken to Heaven to marry the Lamb, in a Mansion he has built for us in his FATHERS HOUSE. You being Jewish should know the Jewish tradition is the Bride and Groom stay in the Bridal Chamber for Seven Days (7 Years in Heaven) and the Groom only comes when the father tells him to come. So he knows not the day nor the hour.

The Heaven and earth passing away has nothing to do with what Jesus meant. You are misreading it.

Why would you be dumbfounded at a correlation between the sounding of trumpets at the coming of Jesus Christ and the sounding of seven trumpets that happen right after the sixth seal that describes the events of his second coming? The correlation is obvious. The elect do not go to heaven, for it would make no sense for Jesus Christ to descend, and then re-ascend back into heaven where his people would be, as you say. No sir, Jesus Christ comes again to live on this earth, and to reign on the earth, along with the elect.... and Jesus Christ, and the elect, will live in Israel, and rule over all the earth and over whatever nations survived the plagues to come. His coming is very soon, I surely hope you get your doctrine together, before you are taken by surprise and shocked by the events about to unfold. I have a study on this here The Second Coming, the Trumpet Blasts, the Bowls of Wrath, and Inheriting the Earth | Wisdom of God .

 

[slave]

How does a sheep follow a shepherd?

Do they need to walk on 2 legs and carry that curved staff thingy? Emulating their shepherd?

No. It is impossible for them. It is enough for them to be in the presence of the shepherd and look to him for their provision and protection.

* So, in the ways of practical-living; daily-living where do you stand in God's chain of command?

 

[Yahshua]

I hope not, it would depend, if God enlightened their hearts through circumcision by the Spirit and they come to the knowledge of the truth.

Romans 2:20, 29, 3:20 "having in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth...........circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit......since through the law comes knowledge of sin."

Ho, ho, ho-no we better not conclude that Johnny_B because if they reach a different understanding reading the words of scripture; different than firmly held doctrine, then they'll be pegged with "privately interpreting" even if they claim God has enlightened them.

...But at the same time no one really *can* help them with their understanding can they? Because that would be "adding in human effort" to the work of Christ; adding human work that "helps Christ save" them. And as we've been told "no one's work helps Christ save". No reading the law to understand it (even though that was commanded), no studying it (even though commanded), no explaining scripture (commanded), no attempting to show how to live by Christ's words (because "no one can"), no spurring them on to do good works (Heb 10:24). Nothing. No human effort must be given from anyone else to help "save" that person, and that person can't do anything either, because it's all the work of Christ in them. So basically if they have the wrong understanding they're out of luck, no matter how drawn by God they are. They'd have been better off not reading the bible at all.

---

Hopefully you've picked up on my sarcasm...and it's not directed towards you, but I'm just showing where this logic leads. It inadvertently convinces a person not to studying scripture even though scripture says to study it to show oneself approved by God, as well as to use it to test and correct every doctrine. But when we have to toss out or rewrite or explain away entire chapters and books because it doesn't fit doctrine, that means the doctrine is wrong. Scripture comes first.

 

[Yahshua]

So how did you receive the point of Jaybird's comment, that he didn't agree with you about sin? What he said was the message that the gospel gives us; the very essence of what the Scripture's message is.! And he said it accurately to a tee. How did your spirit miss it?

Jesus came to make right our relationship with God by laying payment thru His own blood on a Cross, He now is our bridge to having a pure relationship once again, starting from innocence and equipping us to remain that way, this relationship doesn't start after we die, it starts on day one of Salvation, and isn't that awesome! Smile. So, our position in His family is guaranteed by the Cross, but we still have to experience that victory for ourselves implementing all the power God has given us in Christ, otherwise we would not also realize our death that also happened on that Cross, nor would we be able to conquer our own sins ( plural; or the particulars of sin).

If I just say, "Yeah I died there, and He conquered sin (not plural) there on that Cross..." how is that our reality? But when we are asked to give God our sins ( the result of, and identifier of sin) strongholds and stand against it, being empowered by God thru Jesus Christ ---> And DO it, now it becomes our reality. God wants to show His glory in our changed behaviors, mightily so in our weak bodies. How can His purposes and intentions be served if we never actually change? If we never make all that God did that we could not, not also our reality?

How can we expect God to hear us say "No" to His sinless plan that He set in motion before we were born by-way of Jesus Christ when He sent His Son to die for that very reason? We so can live the life of Jesus Christ!!

You have broadly opened the door to Gods grace, which is true - on the Cross. Are you equally broadly opening up your heart to your death on that same Cross? It does take time to get there, but that will always be God's point in YOUR life. Any other message is not from Him.

So, Yes, you are half right! Only Jesus was pure enough to pay the price for our sins <-----(Plural), and God thru Jesus took care of sin <-------- (not plural). But now in Salvation we have been made pure and innocent, and God has placed us in Christ to do just the opposite of what your second part referred to: We are now empowered by God with Jesus sitting at the right hand of God interceding for us to stand ourselves against sin (in Christ) now. We ourselves are asked by God to be holy as Christ Jesus was holy. We ourselves are asked to sin (meaning the plural version; the particulars of sin) no more. So now the rest is up to us to accomplish. Will we in starting out struggle with this - yes! For we are still babes in Christ. Will we even struggle for a spell- yes! Because adolescence is short-sighted sometimes, will we still suffer into adulthood - we should begin not to! For by now God has been working on you to change from death to life . From the soulish-living to the Spirit-life. Now this is not chronological age, but Spiritual aging. So, God is patient and is always onward and upward in developing His children. But note this: Christ is only interested in us being a participant in the life He lived - otherwise you are at risk, even after regeneration of God's judgement. For we all die once, and are judged. Your spirit, not your soul knows that!

The gospel. The *POWER* of salvation to those who "believe" (in that power). Believe in the awesome divine POWER of Christ in you. He is not weak. He is not impotent. He can change a person from sin-doer to a doer of righteousness.

Praise the almighty, merciful, righteous, living God who loves us enough to set us free from the bondage of sin, saving us through his son so we can finally stand and do and love as he always ordained us to. Halleluyah.