The Rapture
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mid-trib is that straight middle of the tribulation or pre-wrath? Yes it is that way. There are lots of views on the rapture, ever this that say no rapture. I know we are coming with Him when He returns.
Colossians 3:3-4 "For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.4 When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.
Colossians 3:3-4 "For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.4 When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.
M
Hey, that's "close enough for government work". I would argue believers only see the seals...and both the trumpets and the bowls are part of God's wrath. But...there's plenty of common ground there.
So apparently you would then agree...the first event we believers should be looking for is what Jesus said? The Abomination of Desolation? Which is, I believe, the explosive emergence of this evil world leader.
And if so...might we not be seeing signs of the world coming increasingly under the shadow of this satanic world regime?
So apparently you would then agree...the first event we believers should be looking for is what Jesus said? The Abomination of Desolation? Which is, I believe, the explosive emergence of this evil world leader.
And if so...might we not be seeing signs of the world coming increasingly under the shadow of this satanic world regime?
I suppose I lean more towards the prewrath rapture which also may be mid trib i'm entirely sure but I also may be wrong and perhaps we will be taken before all this happens. I have to say though i very much doubt the post trib rapture is true.
There is a difference between the tribulation and God's wrath and the bowls of judgement are not meant for his children as the scriptures say
1 Thessalonians 5:9King James Version (KJV)
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
However he never promised us we would not face tribulation in fact Jesus himself said John16:33 I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world
However it happens and whatever view point others have on the happenings and timing of the rapture even if it contrasts my own it is not for me to judge or to look down upon them for it. We may have vastly different understanding and may have beliefs that completely contradict each other but in Christ we are one. You will find that many will argue and attack each other and mock and name call simply because of their difference in understanding of the rapture but as for me love has taught me that it is not for me to judge anyone for their understanding of the subject sadly this is a lesson many have yet to learn.
So 2nice in your studies of the rapture you will find that what you learn and may see as the truth will contradict that of others and in time your view point may change as well and you will also see the power that this subject alone has over people making them attack each other and use scripture as a weapon simply because their understanding of the subject differs. But you must not be like this because such people are blind and lack the understanding that only love can give, had such people seen through loves eyes they would be at peace in debating the subject and their understanding would vastly increase instead of being limited with their fire to attack and mock others.
So in essence as you study the rapture remember always to have the love of God in your heart for only then will you be given the eyes to truly see the truth hidden within the truth. many see the truth and argue and attack each other but there is a truth hidden within the truth that will only be seen and understood with the heart and eyes of love.
There is a difference between the tribulation and God's wrath and the bowls of judgement are not meant for his children as the scriptures say
1 Thessalonians 5:9King James Version (KJV)
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
However he never promised us we would not face tribulation in fact Jesus himself said John16:33 I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world
However it happens and whatever view point others have on the happenings and timing of the rapture even if it contrasts my own it is not for me to judge or to look down upon them for it. We may have vastly different understanding and may have beliefs that completely contradict each other but in Christ we are one. You will find that many will argue and attack each other and mock and name call simply because of their difference in understanding of the rapture but as for me love has taught me that it is not for me to judge anyone for their understanding of the subject sadly this is a lesson many have yet to learn.
So 2nice in your studies of the rapture you will find that what you learn and may see as the truth will contradict that of others and in time your view point may change as well and you will also see the power that this subject alone has over people making them attack each other and use scripture as a weapon simply because their understanding of the subject differs. But you must not be like this because such people are blind and lack the understanding that only love can give, had such people seen through loves eyes they would be at peace in debating the subject and their understanding would vastly increase instead of being limited with their fire to attack and mock others.
So in essence as you study the rapture remember always to have the love of God in your heart for only then will you be given the eyes to truly see the truth hidden within the truth. many see the truth and argue and attack each other but there is a truth hidden within the truth that will only be seen and understood with the heart and eyes of love.
Y
Eschatology makes zero sense to me, but as I go through my readings, I suppose I am more apt to believe in the mid-tribulation rapture than the other choices. It seems like the only choice that doesn't require a bunch of hoop jumping and weaving scripture together out of context to make the case for. Whether I am correct or not, I really am not concerned. I feel like I have a lot more important things to think about on a daily basis that to worry about what could happen at some indeterminate time in the future. I figure I'll find out when it's time.
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M
When I saw Russia move her military into Syria I started looking back into end time prophecy. I have studied pre and post tribulation rapture, but have not spent much time with the mid tribulation rapture. Probably by the time I tap the reply button to this post, you will have been attacked for your mid-trib belief. Read how a Christian should respond to those with differing theology in 2Tim 2:24-25 kjv ";be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves;" this would allow the Holy Spirit to do His job, something the attackers know nothing about.
I would like to hear why you believe in mid-trib. When the attacks start, I'll send you a private message so that we can continue to discuss scripture without having to dodge 40mm grenades. lol.
If it is pre-trib: I'm ready to go.
If it is mid-trib: I will see certain things unfold in prophecy to know it was not pre-trib and I will repent and be prepared.
If it is post-trib: I will not see it because I will not take the mark, so I will either starve to death or have my head chopped off for not denying Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. I will run the streets declaring Jesus so that my head will be removed and I will not have to see all of the tribulation. I doubt the post trib scenario, because His word says 1Thess 5:9 kjv For God hath not appointed us to wrath. With that said I'll close with this question:
When reading God's Word, do you read what you believe or do you believe what you read?
Here's something we can all believe whenever the rapture is, it's our blessed hope, our resurrection bodies and we will ever be with the Lord. I was hard core pre-trib. Which wit Jesus mentioning Noah and Lot in end of days teachings. They both did not suffer God's wrath, one was preserved through it, the other was taken out completely. Is that a picture of the Church being taken out and the Jews being preserved? I don't know, I'd rather study soteriology, then eschatology, just because it easier to understand and it's not given in part like prophecy.
Hi RickyZ,
Regarding your post, can you explain the following:
"I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed."
"Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, “Go, pour out the seven bowls of God’s wrath on the earth"
Of all the information regarding the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, the bowl judgments are directly referred to as the wrath of God. In light of the scriptures above, how are you maintaining that the bowl judgments are not apart of God's wrath?
Regarding your post, can you explain the following:
"I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed."
"Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, “Go, pour out the seven bowls of God’s wrath on the earth"
Of all the information regarding the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, the bowl judgments are directly referred to as the wrath of God. In light of the scriptures above, how are you maintaining that the bowl judgments are not apart of God's wrath?
Hello ModernDayBerean,
In order to come to a right exegetical conclusion regarding the gathering of the church, all of the information surrounding this subject must be taken into consideration, which are as follows:
1). The status of all believers in relation to God
When a believer comes to Christ, they are credited with righteousness and have been reconciled to God (Rom.4:23, 2 Cor.5:18). To be reconciled means to go from enmity to friendship i.e. the believer is brought back into a right relationship with God. The wrath of God no longer rests upon the believer.
2). The severity and magnitude of God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments
2). It is important to study the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments in order to understand the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath. To give you an idea, with just the 4th seal and the 6th trumpet, the resulting fatalities will be approximately 50% of the earths population killed within the time of God's wrath and that is not including the fatalities that will result from trumpets 1,2 and 3 nor from the bowl judgments. It is also important to understand who God's wrath will be directed at.
3). Understanding the Lord's promises to the church in regards to His coming wrath
Since every believer in Christ has been reconciled to God and has been credited with righteousness, the wrath of God no longer rests upon us. Scripture states that believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, whether the coming wrath upon this earth nor the wrath as a result of condemning judgment in the lake of fire. Believer are not appointed to suffer any of it. - (Rom.5:9, 1 Thes.1:10, 5:9)
4). Understanding that the wrath that we deserve was poured out on the Lord
Some of the things that the Lord accomplished on our behalf was one, he met the righteous requirements of the law on our behalf, he paid the penalty for every believers sins and in doing so, he also took upon himself the wrath that we deserve as a result of our sins. Therefore, the wrath that we deserve has been satisfied by Christ and therefore believers will not and cannot experience God's wrath.
5). Understanding that the gathering of the church and the Lord's return to the earth are separate events
One of the major errors made regarding end-time events, is not recognizing that the Lord's appearing to gather the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, that they are two separate events. They interpret the gathering of the church in 1 Thes.4:13-17 as being the same event of Matt.24:30-31, which they are not, but are two completely different events, with different purposes.
6). Understanding that the Lord's return for the church as being imminent
Scripture repeatedly makes clear that the Lord's return for the church as being imminent i.e. about to happen, on the horizon, looming, like a thief in the night, etc. He has made it known that we would not know the time of his appearing, which makes it always imminent up until the point that it takes place. That said, for those who are of the mid and post tribulation persuasion, many signs would have to take place before Christ could return to the earth, namely, all that is written in Matt.24 and the events of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Those two interpretations remove the immanency of the Lord's return to gather his church and more so for the post-trib group. As an example, if I was here on the earth during the time of God's wrath, once I saw the seals beginning to take place in chronological order, I could follow it like a road map. I would know everything that was going to take place leading up to the Lord's return. I would also know that the Lord could not return until after the 7th bowl judgment was poured out.
7). Understanding the decree of seventy 'sevens' upon Israel in relation to end-time events
A seventy seven year decree was pronounced upon Israel and Jerusalem, which is divided up into three parts:
* 7 seven year periods = the restoring and rebuilding of Jerusalem
* 62 seven year periods = The Messiah cut off at the end of the 62
* 1 seven year period = Establishing that last seven year covenant with Israel and the setting up of the abomination in the middle of the seven years.
The 7 sevens and the 62 sevens have been fulfilled with the Messiah being cut off/crucified at the end of 62 sevens. At that time God paused the last seven year period to be fulfilled in relation to the end of the age and began to build His church. Once the church has been completed, the Lord will appear in the atmosphere and the dead in Christ will be raised and the living will be changed and caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air. Then according to John 14:1-3, the Lord will take the whole group back to the Father's house to those mansions/dwelling places that Jesus told his disciples he was going to prepare for us. Once the gathering of the church takes place, then that ruler, the antichrist, will establish his seven year covenant with Israel initiating that last seven years in fulfillment of the seventy sevens. At the completion of that seven years, after the 7th bowl has been poured out, the Lord will return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom.
I hope that the above will help you come to a right conclusion based on all of the information listed.
In order to come to a right exegetical conclusion regarding the gathering of the church, all of the information surrounding this subject must be taken into consideration, which are as follows:
1). The status of all believers in relation to God
When a believer comes to Christ, they are credited with righteousness and have been reconciled to God (Rom.4:23, 2 Cor.5:18). To be reconciled means to go from enmity to friendship i.e. the believer is brought back into a right relationship with God. The wrath of God no longer rests upon the believer.
2). The severity and magnitude of God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments
2). It is important to study the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments in order to understand the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath. To give you an idea, with just the 4th seal and the 6th trumpet, the resulting fatalities will be approximately 50% of the earths population killed within the time of God's wrath and that is not including the fatalities that will result from trumpets 1,2 and 3 nor from the bowl judgments. It is also important to understand who God's wrath will be directed at.
3). Understanding the Lord's promises to the church in regards to His coming wrath
Since every believer in Christ has been reconciled to God and has been credited with righteousness, the wrath of God no longer rests upon us. Scripture states that believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, whether the coming wrath upon this earth nor the wrath as a result of condemning judgment in the lake of fire. Believer are not appointed to suffer any of it. - (Rom.5:9, 1 Thes.1:10, 5:9)
4). Understanding that the wrath that we deserve was poured out on the Lord
Some of the things that the Lord accomplished on our behalf was one, he met the righteous requirements of the law on our behalf, he paid the penalty for every believers sins and in doing so, he also took upon himself the wrath that we deserve as a result of our sins. Therefore, the wrath that we deserve has been satisfied by Christ and therefore believers will not and cannot experience God's wrath.
5). Understanding that the gathering of the church and the Lord's return to the earth are separate events
One of the major errors made regarding end-time events, is not recognizing that the Lord's appearing to gather the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, that they are two separate events. They interpret the gathering of the church in 1 Thes.4:13-17 as being the same event of Matt.24:30-31, which they are not, but are two completely different events, with different purposes.
6). Understanding that the Lord's return for the church as being imminent
Scripture repeatedly makes clear that the Lord's return for the church as being imminent i.e. about to happen, on the horizon, looming, like a thief in the night, etc. He has made it known that we would not know the time of his appearing, which makes it always imminent up until the point that it takes place. That said, for those who are of the mid and post tribulation persuasion, many signs would have to take place before Christ could return to the earth, namely, all that is written in Matt.24 and the events of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Those two interpretations remove the immanency of the Lord's return to gather his church and more so for the post-trib group. As an example, if I was here on the earth during the time of God's wrath, once I saw the seals beginning to take place in chronological order, I could follow it like a road map. I would know everything that was going to take place leading up to the Lord's return. I would also know that the Lord could not return until after the 7th bowl judgment was poured out.
7). Understanding the decree of seventy 'sevens' upon Israel in relation to end-time events
A seventy seven year decree was pronounced upon Israel and Jerusalem, which is divided up into three parts:
* 7 seven year periods = the restoring and rebuilding of Jerusalem
* 62 seven year periods = The Messiah cut off at the end of the 62
* 1 seven year period = Establishing that last seven year covenant with Israel and the setting up of the abomination in the middle of the seven years.
The 7 sevens and the 62 sevens have been fulfilled with the Messiah being cut off/crucified at the end of 62 sevens. At that time God paused the last seven year period to be fulfilled in relation to the end of the age and began to build His church. Once the church has been completed, the Lord will appear in the atmosphere and the dead in Christ will be raised and the living will be changed and caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air. Then according to John 14:1-3, the Lord will take the whole group back to the Father's house to those mansions/dwelling places that Jesus told his disciples he was going to prepare for us. Once the gathering of the church takes place, then that ruler, the antichrist, will establish his seven year covenant with Israel initiating that last seven years in fulfillment of the seventy sevens. At the completion of that seven years, after the 7th bowl has been poured out, the Lord will return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom.
I hope that the above will help you come to a right conclusion based on all of the information listed.
Hello again Rickyz,
Regarding the seals and the trumpets, how would you interpret the following:
Announced at the 6th seal:
"The great day of their wrath has come and who can endure it?"
Announced at the 7th trumpet:
"The nations were angry and your wrath has come."
I would not use the word attack, but rather contending for the truth of Scripture. People's attempt to separate the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments as not all belonging to God's wrath is another one of the errors that leads to misinterpreting end-time events. They are three sets of seven judgments which will complete God's wrath. Jesus is the One who is opening the seals, which leads to the trumpet judgments, followed by the bowl judgments, which complete God's wrath.
Since all three sets are all God's judgments of wrath and the church is not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath, how then can the church go through the seals and the trumpets?
Regarding the seals and the trumpets, how would you interpret the following:
Announced at the 6th seal:
"The great day of their wrath has come and who can endure it?"
Announced at the 7th trumpet:
"The nations were angry and your wrath has come."
I would not use the word attack, but rather contending for the truth of Scripture. People's attempt to separate the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments as not all belonging to God's wrath is another one of the errors that leads to misinterpreting end-time events. They are three sets of seven judgments which will complete God's wrath. Jesus is the One who is opening the seals, which leads to the trumpet judgments, followed by the bowl judgments, which complete God's wrath.
Since all three sets are all God's judgments of wrath and the church is not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath, how then can the church go through the seals and the trumpets?
Hello D,
No, the Bible does not teach that the 7th trumpet as being the last trumpet. It is implied as being the last trumpet only because the 7th trumpet is the last one of that set. The trumpet judgments are part of the God's wrath and there is no mention of the gathering of the church in the context of the 7th trumpet, nor prior to or after. The only reason that people have come up with this interpretation is because of the word "trumpet" and that's all that they have in common.
Another problem of the 7th trumpet being the last trumpet, is that if the church were to be gathered at the 7th trumpet, it would mean that the church would have to go through the seals and the trumpet judgments, which are all apart of God's wrath. Since the church is not appointed to suffer wrath, then we cannot go through them.
This is no fallacy, for Jesus makes known many times that no one would know the time of his appearing. That's immanency!
No, the Bible does not teach that the 7th trumpet as being the last trumpet. It is implied as being the last trumpet only because the 7th trumpet is the last one of that set. The trumpet judgments are part of the God's wrath and there is no mention of the gathering of the church in the context of the 7th trumpet, nor prior to or after. The only reason that people have come up with this interpretation is because of the word "trumpet" and that's all that they have in common.
Another problem of the 7th trumpet being the last trumpet, is that if the church were to be gathered at the 7th trumpet, it would mean that the church would have to go through the seals and the trumpet judgments, which are all apart of God's wrath. Since the church is not appointed to suffer wrath, then we cannot go through them.
This is no fallacy, for Jesus makes known many times that no one would know the time of his appearing. That's immanency!