Why im not a calvinist (but want to be)

[Locutus]

 

[sparkman]

God elected the patriarchs in a salvific sense. He also had an elect remnant of true believers as Romans 11 indicates in a salvific sense. In a corporate nonsalvific sense, he elected ancient Israel. So we see both individual and corporate election.

Paul refers to both types of election in Romans 9-11. Romans 8 makes it clear though that individual salvific election was the overall context.

Interestingly the Day of Atonement only applied to the elect within Israel; it was not extended to the Gentile nations so in essence we have a prototype of limited atonement. I don't believe this atonement applied to the non-faithful within Israel either. Hebrews seems to indicate it was for "those who draw near" meaning the elect within the elect.

Limited Atonement is an interesting doctrine. Some Calvinists will accept all but this point but I don't see their reasoning. I think what they really find troubling is election in general. I am not concerned with limited atonement as Christs atonement is only effective for those who believe no matter whether you are Reformed or Arminian. I believe the aggression is misplaced and in reality the real concern is election.

The Calvinist believes the atonement is specific AND effective; it accomplishes the salvation for those it is intended for (the elect). Arminians believe it is general (for all) AND potentially ineffective; that it only accomplishes the salvation of some. It's a totally different mindset. In their theology potentially no one could have been saved through the atonement; in Reformed theology it accomplishes the salvation of EVERYONE it's intended for.

A study of the book of Hebrews and Leviticus in the light of the tabernacle and the atonement is enlightening in this regard. Most Christians don't understand the Mosaic Covenant well enough to understand the book of Hebrews. I've been focused on this recently.

James White has an 80 sermon series on Hebrews on SermonAudio that helps in this regard. I had already been studying it due to my Judaizers past.

I can provide vide a link to the sermon series if anyone is interested.

Additionally I think in one sense the Day of Atonement ceremony did atone for Israels sins in a corporate sense and kept it worthy as a place for Gods presence to reside but did nothing salvifically. I base this on Hebrews where it says it is impossible for the blood of animals to remove sin. For the faithful remnant within Israel ("those who draw near") it foreshadowed Jesus and his atoning sacrifice. This is a deep topic and I am sure I don't understand every nuance.

i also respect my Arminian brothers and their concerns. The only ones I have issues with are the ignorant who claim Reformed theology is Satanic. Their view is uninformed and based on a lack of understanding of the underlying issues.

 

[sparkman]

We are Calvinists. Resistance is futile. Prepare for assimilation.

 

[Spokenpassage]

"Why im not a calvinist (but want to be)"

The pun in the title.

 

[Locutus]

We are Calvinists. Resistance is futile. Prepare for assimilation.

Not gonna happen. I tossed out calvin and his bogus "theology" at least 20 years ago after doing a comprehensive study. Last thing I tossed out was futurism in the form of dispensationalism.

You too will become one with the Covenant Eschatol-Org....

 

[Spokenpassage]

How is it that we will believe that the Lord Jesus and his ministry was foreordained, but not our conversion?

 

[DJ2]

How is it that we will believe that the Lord Jesus and his ministry was foreordained, but not our conversion?

Can a person die believing arminianism and still be one of the elect? Is accepting Calvinism the litmus test for knowing you are part of the chosen? Please give yes or no answers then follow with comments.

 

[DJ2]

God elected the patriarchs in a salvific sense. He also had an elect remnant of true believers as Romans 11 indicates in a salvific sense. In a corporate nonsalvific sense, he elected ancient Israel. So we see both individual and corporate election.

Paul refers to both types of election in Romans 9-11. Romans 8 makes it clear though that individual salvific election was the overall context.

Interestingly the Day of Atonement only applied to the elect within Israel; it was not extended to the Gentile nations so in essence we have a prototype of limited atonement. I don't believe this atonement applied to the non-faithful within Israel either. Hebrews seems to indicate it was for "those who draw near" meaning the elect within the elect.

Limited Atonement is an interesting doctrine. Some Calvinists will accept all but this point but I don't see their reasoning. I think what they really find troubling is election in general. I am not concerned with limited atonement as Christs atonement is only effective for those who believe no matter whether you are Reformed or Arminian. I believe the aggression is misplaced and in reality the real concern is election.

The Calvinist believes the atonement is specific AND effective; it accomplishes the salvation for those it is intended for (the elect). Arminians believe it is general (for all) AND potentially ineffective; that it only accomplishes the salvation of some. It's a totally different mindset. In their theology potentially no one could have been saved through the atonement; in Reformed theology it accomplishes the salvation of EVERYONE it's intended for.

A study of the book of Hebrews and Leviticus in the light of the tabernacle and the atonement is enlightening in this regard. Most Christians don't understand the Mosaic Covenant well enough to understand the book of Hebrews. I've been focused on this recently.

James White has an 80 sermon series on Hebrews on SermonAudio that helps in this regard. I had already been studying it due to my Judaizers past.

I do not find Calvinism hard to accept, after all I accept a talking donkey and serpent. If God selects the saved and doomed regardless of the efforts of individuals, so be it. Who am I to object. At least on this issue my hands are clean. I will accept my fate, whether heaven or hell knowing I bear no guilt toward the state of my birth.

 

[sparkman]

Can a person die believing arminianism and still be one of the elect? Is accepting Calvinism the litmus test for knowing you are part of the chosen? Please give yes or no answers then follow with comments.

You're not asking me but knowing details about how the engine works isn't required to drive a car. I'd never claim an Arminian wasn't saved based on a difference of opinion on election.

 

[DJ2]

You're not asking me but knowing details about how the engine works isn't required to drive a car. I'd never claim an Arminian wasn't saved based on a difference of opinion on election.

True, but not knowing how to drive ends you up in a ditch.

 

[sparkman]

True, but not knowing how to drive ends you up in a ditch.

Right...being in error on certain issues won't get you in the car to start with (deity of Christ, etcetera), and being in error on other topics may result in ineffectiveness in some areas of your life. For instance, a strong view of God's sovereignty helps one to weather severe trials. I broke my neck, back, hip and knee in an auto accident seven months ago. I can't imagine going through that without a deep conviction of God's sovereignty in all aspects of my life, including the bad things, and that they serve a purpose. I was told that my calmness after the accident was unreal and bizarre. I attribute it to my confidence in God's sovereignty as well as spiritual provision. I am still not totally healed but I know it's going to work to my good somehow.

 

[Spokenpassage]

Can a person die believing arminianism and still be one of the elect? Is accepting Calvinism the litmus test for knowing you are part of the chosen? Please give yes or no answers then follow with comments.

Of course you can be Arminian and elect. Understanding Calvinism is non-salvific.

It is rather the Arminians, many of them, that accuse us of heresy.

 

[DJ2]

How can anyone know who the elect are? That's why you tell them the gospel, we don't know who God's holy spirit will grant saving faith and regenerate and seal with His holy spirit.

It seems many people know who the elect are. There are churches full of people claiming they are chosen. Have you never been to a SBC church?

 

[sparkman]

I like this meme.

 

[DJ2]

Right...being in error on certain issues won't get you in the car to start with (deity of Christ, etcetera), and being in error on other topics may result in ineffectiveness in some areas of your life. For instance, a strong view of God's sovereignty helps one to weather severe trials. I broke my neck, back, hip and knee in an auto accident seven months ago. I can't imagine going through that without a deep conviction of God's sovereignty in all aspects of my life, including the bad things, and that they serve a purpose. I was told that my calmness after the accident was unreal and bizarre. I attribute it to my confidence in God's sovereignty as well as spiritual provision. I am still not totally healed but I know it's going to work to my good somehow.

But isn't denying the true gospel of Christ a dead engine?

 

[Spokenpassage]

I like this better haha

 

[DJ2]

Of course you can be Arminian and elect. Understanding Calvinism is non-salvific.

It is rather the Arminians, many of them, that accuse us of heresy.

If belief in Arminianism is not a litmus test for being among the non-chosen, what is?

 

[Tinuviel]

Greetings to you dear reader.

I've noticed a lot of calvinists on this forum and while i disagree with EVERY SINGLE POINT of the TULIP I still would like to BE a calvinist, why and how on earth can I say that?
Because I think its a doctrine that breeds security, it doesnt matter even if I dont present the gospel in the most eloquent words, if that person is pre-destined he will believe anyway, Lord will save His own no matter what we do or dont do.
But therein lies the danger, does it stop people from striving and make them just chillax and fallback? It should, but then you look at someone like Spurgeon, didnt stop him from preaching, I JUST DONT UNDERSTAND why would Spurgeon spend a minute of his time preaching, knowing the elect will be saved regardless.

My favorite sister in Christ on this forum is Angela, shes a calvinist if my conclusions on her posts are correct, Id like her or someone else knowledgeble in the topic to explain to me these following HUGE problems i have with calvinism:

1. If men are totally depraved, why does God continue to command us to repent, and change, if we cant do it? isnt that a complete nonsense to ask people to do something they cant do? Look at Nineveh and Jonah, they repented and God repented of the judgment. Surely we can decide to do evil or good? (free will???)

2. If all the elect are saved regardless if we evangelize, why bother doing it as much?

3. Limited atonement now this one i think simply goes to war against scripture, 1 john 2:2 comes to mind, scripture says Christ died for the world many times, and I think it takes a lawyer like John Calvin to twist something this simple. Also when evangelizing how can you say "Jesus died for you" if you dont know he/she is elect?

4. We see people resist the Holy Ghost in the bible, so irresistable grace HOW? Acts 7:51

5. Now this is probably the only point I got no beef with lol (perseverence of the saints)


(PS; Sorry for a long post, i just wanted to make a separate thread instead of bickering in other people's threads )

Sorry; I look at that post and my mind suddenly goes on hyperactivity and freezes . I might be able to come back and answer in little bits if it gets going again.

But good for you for believing perseverance of the saints! In my experience, that's one of the ones people can't agree on and I'm like...WHAT??

 

[Spokenpassage]

If belief in Arminianism is not a litmus test for being among the non-chosen, what is?

Denial of the gospel at death, but even then we aren't completely sure in every case. If you had read my first post on this thread, it would clear most confusion up.

Do I know that I am an elect? Well, it is the same question as do I believe and remain abiding in the person and work of Jesus Christ alone for my salvation to and reconciliation with God? Only the elect come to embrace Christ. But even then, the apostle warns us to "be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election" (2 Peter 1:10), and so it sobers us to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith.

 

[valiant]

Not gonna happen. I tossed out calvin and his bogus "theology" at least 20 years ago after doing a comprehensive study. Last thing I tossed out was futurism in the form of dispensationalism.

You too will become one with the Covenant Eschatol-Org....

well you were right on futurism. 50% marks (assuming by Calvinism you actually mean what Ephe 1 teaches}