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NickT
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You have confused hyper-calvinism with Calvinism. Reformed Theology Vs. Hyper-Calvinism by Michael Horton
Why im not a calvinist (but want to be)
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Hyper-Calvinist or Regular-Calvinist. I would like to hear the views of the Calvinist who are not claiming to be one of the chosen. Every pro-Calvinist article, book or sermon seems to only come from the chosen elect side. I would like to hear the other sides view. It seems they would be the least bias of all the Calvinists since they are honest enough to admit they are not part of the "in" crowd.
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Great post, and i must say this is a great verse, hard to get around that.
But isnt God repenting of his judgment on nineveh kind of pointless if He was the one who granted nineveh that repentance to begin with?
God commands people to do things that they can't do precisely so they will realize they can't do it.
Matthew 5:48 [FONT="]Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
[/FONT]That would take a lot of effort trying to be perfect, right? And in the end, or within seconds depending on how hard you try, you would find out you are unable. Now what? You can't do what God has commanded. Do you just quit? Do you say "Oh well, I guess I'm not one of the elect, I'm just a vessel made for destruction". Or do you come to Christ and start asking for help.
If your 'choice' was the second one then you are of the elect. Do you know why?
John 6:44 [FONT="]No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.[/FONT]
Wouldn't you want to evangelize even more if you knew that you could make an impact for Gods Kingdom? Or would you rather that He just uses someone else?
If the Atonement is for everyone then everyone is saved. No one has anything to worry about. There won't even be any judgement. Because the Atonement has taken care of it for everyone. Even unbelievers and those that deny Christ.
They are totally depraved. Grace is only irresistable for the elect.
John 10:27-29
[FONT="]27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:[/FONT]
[FONT="]28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.[/FONT]
[FONT="]29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.[/FONT]
(PS; Sorry for a long post, i just wanted to make a separate thread instead of bickering in other people's threads)
Good point the be ye perfect, that surely is impossible, unless we are willing to drop the level of perfection pretty low
As for the atonement thing, the atonement was made for everyoen but only becomes effective once people humble themselves and repent. As was in the old testament, they made a sacrifice and people had to humble themselves.
Good point the be ye perfect, that surely is impossible, unless we are willing to drop the level of perfection pretty low
As for the atonement thing, the atonement was made for everyoen but only becomes effective once people humble themselves and repent. As was in the old testament, they made a sacrifice and people had to humble themselves.
i'm so glad you said that. it's an important concept and sometimes we see people (me, times past
) who do lower the bar.i wonder, how can a person humble himself, in and of himself?
see the indictment against us before we're drawn to Christ...
as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
“Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
“Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
“Their feet are swift to shed blood;
in their paths are ruin and misery,
and the way of peace they have not known.”
“There is no fear of God before their eyes.” (Rom 3:10-18)
if no one seeks for God, what hope have we?
I take being perfect to meaning being complete. When we are complete within ourselves we are not running around looking for things to validate us, or fulfill us. That is Satan's game. We have found our rest in Christ.
Strong's Concordance #5046
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: teleios
Phonetic Spelling: (tel'-i-os)
Short Definition: perfect, full-grown
Definition: perfect, (a) complete in all its parts, (b) full grown,
of full age,(c) specially of the completeness of Christian character.
Strong's Concordance #5046
teleios: having reached its end, i.e. complete, by ext. perfect
Original Word: τέλειος, α, ονPart of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: teleios
Phonetic Spelling: (tel'-i-os)
Short Definition: perfect, full-grown
Definition: perfect, (a) complete in all its parts, (b) full grown,
of full age,(c) specially of the completeness of Christian character.
Act 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.
I'm no Greek expert, but when we consider that there was some doubt about the Gentiles being included in the promises to Israel is it not possible that it could be translated in such as manner:
Act 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who believed were appointed for eternal life.
Makes much more sense.
I'm no Greek expert, but when we consider that there was some doubt about the Gentiles being included in the promises to Israel is it not possible that it could be translated in such as manner:
Act 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who believed were appointed for eternal life.
Makes much more sense.
i'm no Greek expert, either. so i checked with a few.
HELPS Word-studies
5021 tássō – properly, arrange (put in order); to place in a particular order, appoint; (figuratively) ordain, set in place; "station" (J. Thayer).
5021 /tássō ("place in position, post") was commonly used in ancient military language for "designating" ("appointing, commissioning") a specific status, i.e. arranging (placing) in a deliberate, fixed order.
[5021 (tássō) was "primarily a military term meaning 'to draw up in order, arrange in place, assign, appoint, order' " (A-S).]
Thayers:
ὅσοι ἦσαν τεταγμένοι εἰς ζωήν αἰώνιον, as many as were appointed (A. V. ordained) (by God) to obtain eternal life, or to whom God bad decreed eternal life, Acts 13:48; τινα ὑπό τινα, to put one under another's control (A. V. set under), passive
what do you think?
I know the various Greek definitions notmyown
Adam Clarke's commentary:
Verse 48
As many as were ordained to eternal life believed - This text has been most pitifully misunderstood. Many suppose that it simply means that those in that assembly who were fore-ordained; or predestinated by God's decree, to eternal life, believed under the influence of that decree. Now, we should be careful to examine what a word means, before we attempt to fix its meaning.
Whatever τεταγμενοι may mean, which is the word we translate ordained, it is neither προτεταγμενοι nor προορισμενοι which the apostle uses, but simply τεταγμενοι, which includes no idea of pre-ordination or pre-destination of any kind. And if it even did, it would be rather hazardous to say that all those who believed at this time were such as actually persevered unto the end, and were saved unto eternal life.
But, leaving all these precarious matters, what does the word τεταγμενος mean? The verb ταττω or τασσω signifies to place, set, order, appoint, dispose; hence it has been considered here as implying the disposition or readiness of mind of several persons in the congregation, such as the religious proselytes mentioned Acts 13:43, who possessed the reverse of the disposition of those Jews who spake against those things, contradicting and blaspheming,Acts 13:45. Though the word in this place has been variously translated, yet, of all the meanings ever put on it, none agrees worse with its nature and known signification than that which represents it as intending those who were predestinated to eternal life: this is no meaning of the term, and should never be applied to it.
Let us, without prejudice, consider the scope of the place: the Jews contradicted and blasphemed; the religious proselytes heard attentively, and received the word of life: the one party were utterly indisposed, through their own stubbornness, to receive the Gospel; the others, destitute of prejudice and prepossession, were glad to hear that, in the order of God, the Gentiles were included in the covenant of salvation through Christ Jesus; they, therefore, in this good state and order of mind, believed.
Those who seek for the plain meaning of the word will find it here: those who wish to make out a sense, not from the Greek word, its use among the best Greek writers, and the obvious sense of the evangelist, but from their own creed, may continue to puzzle themselves and others; kindle their own fire, compass themselves with sparks, and walk in the light of their own fire, and of the sparks which they have kindled; and, in consequence, lie down in sorrow, having bidden adieu to the true meaning of a passage so very simple, taken in its connection, that one must wonder how it ever came to be misunderstood and misapplied. Those who wish to see more on this verse may consult Hammond, Whitby, Schoettgen, Rosenmuller, Pearce, Sir Norton Knatchbull, and Dodd.
Adam Clarke's commentary:
Verse 48
As many as were ordained to eternal life believed - This text has been most pitifully misunderstood. Many suppose that it simply means that those in that assembly who were fore-ordained; or predestinated by God's decree, to eternal life, believed under the influence of that decree. Now, we should be careful to examine what a word means, before we attempt to fix its meaning.
Whatever τεταγμενοι may mean, which is the word we translate ordained, it is neither προτεταγμενοι nor προορισμενοι which the apostle uses, but simply τεταγμενοι, which includes no idea of pre-ordination or pre-destination of any kind. And if it even did, it would be rather hazardous to say that all those who believed at this time were such as actually persevered unto the end, and were saved unto eternal life.
But, leaving all these precarious matters, what does the word τεταγμενος mean? The verb ταττω or τασσω signifies to place, set, order, appoint, dispose; hence it has been considered here as implying the disposition or readiness of mind of several persons in the congregation, such as the religious proselytes mentioned Acts 13:43, who possessed the reverse of the disposition of those Jews who spake against those things, contradicting and blaspheming,Acts 13:45. Though the word in this place has been variously translated, yet, of all the meanings ever put on it, none agrees worse with its nature and known signification than that which represents it as intending those who were predestinated to eternal life: this is no meaning of the term, and should never be applied to it.
Let us, without prejudice, consider the scope of the place: the Jews contradicted and blasphemed; the religious proselytes heard attentively, and received the word of life: the one party were utterly indisposed, through their own stubbornness, to receive the Gospel; the others, destitute of prejudice and prepossession, were glad to hear that, in the order of God, the Gentiles were included in the covenant of salvation through Christ Jesus; they, therefore, in this good state and order of mind, believed.
Those who seek for the plain meaning of the word will find it here: those who wish to make out a sense, not from the Greek word, its use among the best Greek writers, and the obvious sense of the evangelist, but from their own creed, may continue to puzzle themselves and others; kindle their own fire, compass themselves with sparks, and walk in the light of their own fire, and of the sparks which they have kindled; and, in consequence, lie down in sorrow, having bidden adieu to the true meaning of a passage so very simple, taken in its connection, that one must wonder how it ever came to be misunderstood and misapplied. Those who wish to see more on this verse may consult Hammond, Whitby, Schoettgen, Rosenmuller, Pearce, Sir Norton Knatchbull, and Dodd.
"Whatever τεταγμενοι may mean, which is the word we translate ordained, it is neither προτεταγμενοι nor προορισμενοι which the apostle uses, but simply τεταγμενοι, "
Just looking a the Scott-Liddell on the above words that Adam Clarke mentions:
προτεταγμενοι
Just looking a the Scott-Liddell on the above words that Adam Clarke mentions:
προτεταγμενοι
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Good point the be ye perfect, that surely is impossible, unless we are willing to drop the level of perfection pretty low
As for the atonement thing, the atonement was made for everyoen but only becomes effective once people humble themselves and repent. As was in the old testament, they made a sacrifice and people had to humble themselves.
Perfect in this verse means to come to full age in spiritual maturity and in context Jesus was saying your love for enemies, should be as mature as Fathers...
Matt 5.43-48
[SUP]43 [/SUP]“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ [SUP]44 [/SUP]But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, [SUP]45 [/SUP]so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. [SUP]46 [/SUP]For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? [SUP]47 [/SUP]If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? [SUP]48 [/SUP]Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
You are one of the most judgmental persons I have met. Why are you coming out just at me. Trofimus said he not only believes they exist but has ministered to them. I don't see why you would come after me four times in this short thread and not Torfimus. I have been told that these people exist and logically it seems they must. Also, why can a un-chosen person not be able to see the logic of John Calvin, he was a clear and reasonable writer. Anyone, chosen or not should with a open mind see this. Unless you believe that accepting Calvinist theology is the litmus test for election. If this is the case, say it. If not stop mocking those who would like to hear the other side.