We get to heaven because we are Holy

[eternally-gratefull]

lol then if it didn't apply to you or anyone, was there any reason for you to comment on the chart, to change the chart or associate yourself to the second part thereof? And yet you did all three. Also, even when I plainly ask you questions to see where you stand so that I don't think for you you avoid answering them. So you accuse me of imposing my thoughts on what folks believe but won't share what you specifically believe. Gotcha..

1. You said there were two views. You did not leave room for a third.
2. I did share what I believed, You have the chart with my views there. So now you are being dishonest.
3. why is it people are showing you that NO ONE believes the second part of the chart, Yet you continue to insist they do.

That speaks loudly of your intent.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Amen. I was of the same group too. I also still have family in the same boat. You've convinced me to step back and let God handle it because you're right, it's like it's seen as an attack from Satan against what's believed is the truth.

yeah?

the same could be said of you and peter..

 

[Magenta]

Magenta, people lie very easily. If I say, it does not matter if I am tempted and sin
I have nothing to loose, that says it all.

Or holiness and walking after Christ is a take it or leave it choice. One sin and its all
useless.

This is the fruit of such teaching and the spiritual reality of failure.
Now the divide is a spiritual one and comes from a foundational belief
about what sin is and what salvation is and how it works.

In reality these are two different faiths, but with a common language,
and a lot of people in between the two groups.

So though the accusations fly, they are just reflections of different
belief out looks and interpretations.

The funny thing is propogandists care about these ideas, because it
makes their group look bad or good, but in reality it will always come
out and cannot be denied. That is why I laugh at these complaints.

There are spoken because they are true observations.

They are spoken as lies and are recognized as lies by those who know the Truth.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Magenta, people lie very easily.

Yes they do.. Just like you do

 

[PeterJens]

Am I lying? This is a heavy thing to say about someone who walks with integrity.

What I am surprised about is how easily this strategy is resorted to, over simple
binary issues.

1. Is there a moral law to which we are answerable?
2. If we reject all moral law or laws in themselves are we lawless?
3. Is God ever lawless?
4. Teaching sin does not affect our relationship with God, is this biblical?
5. Teaching sin is not an issue in the world, is this sensible or sane?

1. Is there a moral law to which we are answerable? Yes
2. If we reject all moral law or laws in themselves are we lawless? Yes
3. Is God ever lawless? No
4. Teaching sin does not affect our relationship with God, is this biblical? No
5. Teaching sin is not an issue in the world, is this sensible or sane? No

Now each one of these 5 statements I can only see one answer.
And anyone who teaches against these principles is a heretic.

One could spend some time expanding this principles, but everyone is true.
Morality is not an option or walking in love. If we do not walk in love we do not
know God or Christ. If we do not confront sin as evil, death and destruction we
are not following the Most High.

Put simply this is not a judgement against any movement or theological position,
these are foundational principles of the Lord.

 

[PeterJens]

Chart original with reworded column:-
[TABLE="class: cms_table_grid, width: 500, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD]I am already Holy because God sees Christ's holiness, and I can never work to become Holy myself.[/TD]
[TD]I am already Holy because God sees Christ's holiness, because I will never live up to Gods standard, which is perfection[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]II am a sinner who can never stop sinning. To even try is to deny the grace/power of God which covers them, placing me back into judgment.[/TD]
[TD]I am a sinner who is under Gods grace, This I continue to run the race, and not be bogged down when I do sin, I get back on the horse of life and keep pushing forward. [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]There is no work for me to do else I risk undoing my salvation.[/TD]
[TD]God saved me for good works. And since I have TRUE SAVING FAITH IN GOD, My life desire is to do as many of the works God wants me to do as possible [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]God doesn't expect us to be perfect because we can never be. Only Christ is perfect. It's why all sins (past, present, future) are covered by his life's blood.[/TD]
[TD]God knows we will never be perfect. Thats why his love, grace and mercy is never-ending. and is the reason for my joy, my hope and my continued desire to make my abbah father happy. [/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

They are very similar except on the desire to do good works.

What the table highlights is a very different relationship with God and
a very different agenda.

I would call this lawlessness without reference points or victory.

If one overthrows all the law because one cannot complete it in one minor
degree you undermine the whole purpose of the law, which is we are meant
to fulfill it be following love from the heart.

 

[PeterJens]

Integrity of discussion

In every discussion if one is not prepared to leave changed why claim to engage
and not just admit you will state your position and leave. That is fine.

Each statement needs to be something one can hold to and declare.
One also needs to accept all the concepts can be reworded and the truth remain
the same, this is not adulterating the truth, but presenting it in different contexts.

The objective is to come to a conclusion.

I see the real problem is if ones position is clearly defined, the light shone on it and
it does not look good, you will feel bad. That is the reality. Calling people names,
attacking them, claiming it is some spiritual set up does not change reality.
God never changes or His realities. Either come to terms with them today or meet
Him when you die, the Lord is still the same.

He is Holy, Righteous, the judger of all and redeemer of those who love Him and
walk in His ways.

 

[Grace777x70]

Lawlessness is trying to live by our own will-power and flesh thinking we can make ourselves holy or righteous by what we do or don't do.

We live by the life of Christ inside of us now and He has made us holy and righteous because of His work by grace through faith alone. Not acknowledging this is lawlessness and is in fact denying the Lord of us all.

The works-based D.I.Y self-righteousness/holiness humanistic mindset that all of us can have in some form causes us to stumble at Christ's work alone for righteousness, holiness, redemption, wisdom and true life.

There will be fruits of His life in us manifested as we rely on Him alone by grace through faith in what He has already done. These fruits do not produce salvation as in being with the Lord for eternity - they are a result of being one with the Lord and His life manifesting in and through us to a world that needs to know Him in His love and grace for them.

The humanistic works-based self-righteousness mindset thinks that if they can mimic these fruit - then we are ok. It's the very epitome of lawlessness. Trying to be like God without God. The very same thing that Adam and Eve fell for in the garden.

There are Christians today eating from the very same tree of the knowledge of good and evil instead of the tree of life which is Christ Himself.

 

[gb9]

Integrity of discussion

In every discussion if one is not prepared to leave changed why claim to engage
and not just admit you will state your position and leave. That is fine.

Each statement needs to be something one can hold to and declare.
One also needs to accept all the concepts can be reworded and the truth remain
the same, this is not adulterating the truth, but presenting it in different contexts.

The objective is to come to a conclusion.

I see the real problem is if ones position is clearly defined, the light shone on it and
it does not look good, you will feel bad. That is the reality. Calling people names,
attacking them, claiming it is some spiritual set up does not change reality.
God never changes or His realities. Either come to terms with them today or meet
Him when you die, the Lord is still the same.

He is Holy, Righteous, the judger of all and redeemer of those who love Him and
walk in His ways.

1st paragraph. you wrote this.

then yesterday, you told me that unless I see through a different lens, there can be no bridge between us. you said this. you did.

since you said both things, do you care to try to reconcile them??

 

[PeterJens]

Lawlessness is trying to live by our own will-power and flesh thinking we can make ourselves holy or righteous by what we do or don't do.

This is an absurd redefinition of english.
Lawlessness is living without law. It has always meant this and always will.

The whole reason people want to redefine the words is because scripture calls the
son of lawlessness the enemy of Christ.

People who define a different moral code or law outside the law of Moses or Jesus,
are not lawless, without law.

Now following mans laws, or traditions is condemned when it excludes Gods commands.
Traditions are neutral unless they harm people or contradict Gods commands.

And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions!"
Mark 7:9

The focus in scripture is always singular, Gods commands.

Paul says this about ceremonial law.

Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
Col 2:16-17

We are slaves to righteousness, to the law of love.

 

[Grace777x70]

Not believing in the gospel of the grace of God in Christ's finished work and relying on our own D.I.Y. self-righteousness/holiness is lawlessness.

The word "law" means "principle or rule". Living by what we do or don't do is living by the "law" of ourselves and not subjecting ourselves to the righteousness of Christ. This is called works-righteousness and it is anti-Christ in it's belief system.

It's a by-product of eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. There is a tree of Life which is living by Christ Himself and all that He has done. I encourage us to choose the right tree to eat from.

Romans 10:2-3 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge.

[SUP]3 [/SUP] For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

This truth is a stumbling block to all those of us with a humanistic legalistic self-righteousness/holiness mindset.

It's time to repent and believe the gospel just like Jesus told us to do.

Mark 1:14-15 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God,

[SUP]15 [/SUP] and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel."

 

[FreeNChrist]

1. You said there were two views. You did not leave room for a third.
2. I did share what I believed, You have the chart with my views there. So now you are being dishonest.
3. why is it people are showing you that NO ONE believes the second part of the chart, Yet you continue to insist they do.

That speaks loudly of your intent.

The mischaracterization of what we believe is pretty much par for the course from these folks. What I find interesting is that first column, as it is his own description of what he and others here believe....and it is unknowingly very revealing and troublesome.

 

[PeterJens]

1st paragraph. you wrote this.

then yesterday, you told me that unless I see through a different lens, there can be no bridge between us. you said this. you did.

since you said both things, do you care to try to reconcile them??

gb9 - I am always prepared to change. I can see how it looks from your perspective.

It looks like from your perspective I need to accept your reality, because it is the only
reality there is.

So from your perspective I am saying something contradictatory.

Imagine your world is just one alternative of your position, yours being an emotionally
closed down and cutoff version. In this place compromises is all that works and everything
is tossed around by forces outside ones control or understanding.
Emotions are powerful and feared, are reacted to rather than used as messages.

I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.
Rom 7:15 applies

But this is not where we need to stay in Christ, nor was Paul held captive to this.
I know this place because once that was my life also.

But in Christ love brings us victory and freedom, resolves issues we did not know
existed and stops things that used to dominate everything we did. It takes time,
dedication, patience, obedience, perseverance.

I am not sure this is what you expected me to say.
I am not your enemy or a deeply conflicted individual, or someone hiding horrendous
wickedness which I have not resolved. I am the result of grace and love working in
the heart of a believer.

And thankyou for challenging me about something you have seen, because I cannot
see what you see, until you point it out, and the Lord opens my mind to your perspective.

God bless you, for in Him we alone are counted worthy.

 

[PeterJens]

Not believing in the gospel of the grace of God in Christ's finished work and relying on our own D.I.Y. self-righteousness/holiness is lawlessness.

God bless you. You have convinced yourself of this perspective.
The maelstrom of your arguments is your own problem not mine.

 

[FreeNChrist]

God bless you. You have convinced yourself of this perspective.
The maelstrom of your arguments is your own problem not mine.

"Thou shalt not take the Lord God's name in vain"

 

[PeterJens]

Are we Holy?

To one group we are Holy because Christ is seen as Holy in our stead.
To the other group we are Holy because we are washed clean and purified by the
blood of Christ.

I was thinking about this. It hit me like a bolt from the blue.

The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.
James 5:16

For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous and his ears are attentive to their prayer, but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil.
1 Peter 3:12

Here truly is an Israelite in whom there is no deceit.
John 1:47

God listens to us because of what He has made us, Holy, righteous, pure, blameless
in reality and in His sight.

 

[PeterJens]

Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. From the house of the Lord we bless you.
Psalm 118:26

“Hosanna to the Son of David!” “Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!” “Hosanna in the highest heaven!”
Matt 21:9

I will sing the Lord’s praise, for he has been good to me.
Psalm 13:6

 

[PeterJens]

When we are cursed, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure it.
1 Cor 4:12

Amen. In Pauls and the Apostles example may we humble ourselves and know
what it is to walk in the Way.

It is obvious to those who walk in the ways I follow, we have an enemy who declares
themselves as such and wishes to cause division and strif among us.

It is a good example of training, how to walk in the way of humbleness and truth, to
not define ourselves in their eyes but in the eyes of the Lord as ambassadors of the
King.

Who is able to enter in, other than those who are counted worthy, who deny self,
their honour and pride, their reputation and standing, their feelings and their desire
for recognition. And it is good training, for these folk have no limits as to what they
are prepared to say and do, but God has sent them to prepare us for much harsher
challenges to bring glory to His name. Amen.

 

[gb9]

gb9 - I am always prepared to change. I can see how it looks from your perspective.

It looks like from your perspective I need to accept your reality, because it is the only
reality there is.

So from your perspective I am saying something contradictatory.

Imagine your world is just one alternative of your position, yours being an emotionally
closed down and cutoff version. In this place compromises is all that works and everything
is tossed around by forces outside ones control or understanding.
Emotions are powerful and feared, are reacted to rather than used as messages.

I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.
Rom 7:15 applies

But this is not where we need to stay in Christ, nor was Paul held captive to this.
I know this place because once that was my life also.

But in Christ love brings us victory and freedom, resolves issues we did not know
existed and stops things that used to dominate everything we did. It takes time,
dedication, patience, obedience, perseverance.

I am not sure this is what you expected me to say.
I am not your enemy or a deeply conflicted individual, or someone hiding horrendous
wickedness which I have not resolved. I am the result of grace and love working in
the heart of a believer.

And thankyou for challenging me about something you have seen, because I cannot
see what you see, until you point it out, and the Lord opens my mind to your perspective.

God bless you, for in Him we alone are counted worthy.

I am not your enemy either. as far as the other things you said about yourself, well that is not for me to say.

I will, however, say this- as usual did not address my question about the two statements you made. the statements YOU made, not me. as usual, you gave me a lecture. it seems you have this attitude that you are superior and anyone who questions you is inferior, and you need to correct and educate with double-talk randomness about feelings and emotions, which have nothing to do with the original question.

this is arrogant and rude behavior, and it should stop. nothing personal, just bad behavior.

 

[PeterJens]

gb9 - "double-talk randomness about feelings and emotions"

Sounds like speaking in tongues without an interpretation. Unless God
gives it, I cannot help.

God bless you.