We get to heaven because we are Holy
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This was me. For a long time. I have a heart for these people because I was there. I can only thank the Lord that HE brought me to the end of myself, then miraculously brought me back to Him with the revelation of His Grace, and what that meant.
Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. So I believe the same can happen to those who can't yet grasp the simplicity of the Gospel, and remember Jesus hanging on that cross, thrust into the garbage heap that was Golgatha (The Skull), as being synonymous with the cross thrust into our skull, putting to death the garbage heap of our fleshly mind, with the great offense that there is something we can and must do for salvation, because it CAN'T be as simple as merely believing? Surely we must do something? NO! It is offensive to God , who by not taking the cup away from His Son, when Jesus prayed so hard He sweat blood that if there were ANY other way to take it.
So we must continue to stand firm on the one TRUE Gospel.
Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. So I believe the same can happen to those who can't yet grasp the simplicity of the Gospel, and remember Jesus hanging on that cross, thrust into the garbage heap that was Golgatha (The Skull), as being synonymous with the cross thrust into our skull, putting to death the garbage heap of our fleshly mind, with the great offense that there is something we can and must do for salvation, because it CAN'T be as simple as merely believing? Surely we must do something? NO! It is offensive to God , who by not taking the cup away from His Son, when Jesus prayed so hard He sweat blood that if there were ANY other way to take it.
So we must continue to stand firm on the one TRUE Gospel.
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Sin changes us. To sin is to accept something deeply set, a betrayal we are blind to
and some will never recover from. Judas was tempted and totally fell away.
Peter was tempted, but his faith stayed strong.
It is often not the one action that we think is the issue but the reason why we give
in which is often an underlying rebellion and doubt.
Many pastors, full time workers, start with great ambition and yet they find themselves
lost and without faith, many years later wondering where it all went wrong.
Nothing is ever obvious or our hearts not deceptive. We justify so much and yet fail
so terribly, and love to appear so together and right, me included.
An alcoholic always says they have no problem, everyone does this, just one drink
every day, not much, they can control it, but they still die from alcohol addiction denying
it was an issue. Sin works the same way, because facing the truth is the hardest day
of our lives, because it means everything is at stake.
and some will never recover from. Judas was tempted and totally fell away.
Peter was tempted, but his faith stayed strong.
It is often not the one action that we think is the issue but the reason why we give
in which is often an underlying rebellion and doubt.
Many pastors, full time workers, start with great ambition and yet they find themselves
lost and without faith, many years later wondering where it all went wrong.
Nothing is ever obvious or our hearts not deceptive. We justify so much and yet fail
so terribly, and love to appear so together and right, me included.
An alcoholic always says they have no problem, everyone does this, just one drink
every day, not much, they can control it, but they still die from alcohol addiction denying
it was an issue. Sin works the same way, because facing the truth is the hardest day
of our lives, because it means everything is at stake.
I haven't imposed or assumed what I think people believe. I *read* what people have posted on this very thread. I can take the four rows from each column and post a quote of what one or more members have said, verbatim, just on this thread alone.
But what's also interesting is not once have I associated any specific person with either group but asked a basic question from a simple understanding, so it's interesting that there are those of you who have place yourselves in one group or the other. Interesting still that you EG needed to rewrite my list to remove the issue of sin, and yet still avoided the basic question I posed with regard to this topic of holiness.
So in order to not put words in your mouth or think for you I'll ask you plainly (a yes or no will suffice):
1. Do you sin? Yes or no.
2. Do you believe you can never stop sinning in this life? Yes or no.
3. Do you believe God alone gives us the power to stop sinning? Yes or no.
4. Do you believe all future sins are already covered? yes or no.
5. Do you agree that bondage is when one is not set free from a person or thing, but is still a slave to continue to obey and do what that person or thing wants? Yes or No.
6. Did Christ free us from the bondage of sin? Yes or no.
This isn't an exam. You or anyone can answer so that I'm not thinking for you or putting words in your mouth. And here, I'll give you my answers just so you see where I stand..
1. Yes
2. No
3. Yes
4. No
5. Yes
6. Yes
But what's also interesting is not once have I associated any specific person with either group but asked a basic question from a simple understanding, so it's interesting that there are those of you who have place yourselves in one group or the other. Interesting still that you EG needed to rewrite my list to remove the issue of sin, and yet still avoided the basic question I posed with regard to this topic of holiness.
So in order to not put words in your mouth or think for you I'll ask you plainly (a yes or no will suffice):
1. Do you sin? Yes or no.
2. Do you believe you can never stop sinning in this life? Yes or no.
3. Do you believe God alone gives us the power to stop sinning? Yes or no.
4. Do you believe all future sins are already covered? yes or no.
5. Do you agree that bondage is when one is not set free from a person or thing, but is still a slave to continue to obey and do what that person or thing wants? Yes or No.
6. Did Christ free us from the bondage of sin? Yes or no.
This isn't an exam. You or anyone can answer so that I'm not thinking for you or putting words in your mouth. And here, I'll give you my answers just so you see where I stand..
1. Yes
2. No
3. Yes
4. No
5. Yes
6. Yes
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What I did was download your picture into my computer. Then I brought it up using Paint. Then I used the Save As function and saved it using the PNG format. Then I inserted the PNG image into my post.
I would think you could go to your settings, edit avatar, and put in a PNG version of your current avatar.
I would think you could go to your settings, edit avatar, and put in a PNG version of your current avatar.
lol then if it didn't apply to you or anyone, was there any reason for you to comment on the chart, to change the chart or associate yourself to the second part thereof? And yet you did all three. Also, even when I plainly ask you questions to see where you stand so that I don't think for you you avoid answering them. So you accuse me of imposing my thoughts on what folks believe but won't share what you specifically believe. Gotcha..
My experience of the second group is no matter what scripture says or the spirit
prompts them they believe it is satan talking to them and they will do anything
to not go there.
Their whole testimony is the first column is a lie and the second column is the
reality they now accept as the truth. This is something they believe with everything
and to compromise this in their eyes is emotional and spiritual suicide.
Now I have seen them lie, distort, slander, defame, abuse, bully, call people anti-christ,
the most evil people in the church to hold to column 1, so I am convinced about their
convictions and how there is zero chance of a change of heart, because they are life long
believers and know all the arguments and theology, or so they claim, so they will have
to lie in the bed they have made into eternity.
Now there are some on the fringes who are more open, who are prepared to look at
scripture and review what they have experienced against what the apostles experienced
and there is still hope. The Lord is the one who truly knows, but the most dedicated have
little emotional response to the basic emotional issues of life and are seriously wounded
and defended against everything possible. And I speak as someone who knows what
and why they believe as they do, and empathise with their dilemma, but know it is lost
completely, though Gods grace will still bless and minister to many despite all the
confusion, and the Lord always does and has done since He created man.
prompts them they believe it is satan talking to them and they will do anything
to not go there.
Their whole testimony is the first column is a lie and the second column is the
reality they now accept as the truth. This is something they believe with everything
and to compromise this in their eyes is emotional and spiritual suicide.
Now I have seen them lie, distort, slander, defame, abuse, bully, call people anti-christ,
the most evil people in the church to hold to column 1, so I am convinced about their
convictions and how there is zero chance of a change of heart, because they are life long
believers and know all the arguments and theology, or so they claim, so they will have
to lie in the bed they have made into eternity.
Now there are some on the fringes who are more open, who are prepared to look at
scripture and review what they have experienced against what the apostles experienced
and there is still hope. The Lord is the one who truly knows, but the most dedicated have
little emotional response to the basic emotional issues of life and are seriously wounded
and defended against everything possible. And I speak as someone who knows what
and why they believe as they do, and empathise with their dilemma, but know it is lost
completely, though Gods grace will still bless and minister to many despite all the
confusion, and the Lord always does and has done since He created man.
Magenta, people lie very easily. If I say, it does not matter if I am tempted and sin
I have nothing to loose, that says it all.
Or holiness and walking after Christ is a take it or leave it choice. One sin and its all
useless.
This is the fruit of such teaching and the spiritual reality of failure.
Now the divide is a spiritual one and comes from a foundational belief
about what sin is and what salvation is and how it works.
In reality these are two different faiths, but with a common language,
and a lot of people in between the two groups.
So though the accusations fly, they are just reflections of different
belief out looks and interpretations.
The funny thing is propogandists care about these ideas, because it
makes their group look bad or good, but in reality it will always come
out and cannot be denied. That is why I laugh at these complaints.
There are spoken because they are true observations.
I have nothing to loose, that says it all.
Or holiness and walking after Christ is a take it or leave it choice. One sin and its all
useless.
This is the fruit of such teaching and the spiritual reality of failure.
Now the divide is a spiritual one and comes from a foundational belief
about what sin is and what salvation is and how it works.
In reality these are two different faiths, but with a common language,
and a lot of people in between the two groups.
So though the accusations fly, they are just reflections of different
belief out looks and interpretations.
The funny thing is propogandists care about these ideas, because it
makes their group look bad or good, but in reality it will always come
out and cannot be denied. That is why I laugh at these complaints.
There are spoken because they are true observations.