We get to heaven because we are Holy

[PennEd]

I think we have a serious problem here. And not just here, but in many Churches.

There is a very disturbing trend to water down, add, alter, and not understand what THE Gospel unto Salvation is.

We've had people saying things like repenting of sins and or achieving holiness is what is necessary to get to heaven.
BELIEF IN WHO JESUS IS, AND WHAT HE HAS DONE, IS THE GOSPEL UNTO SALVATION! Period.

You want to talk about how we should act as saved Christians, fine. But make no mistake that it is JESUS who saves. WE are not co-saviors!
We CANNOT compromise on this Gospel.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I think we have a serious problem here. And not just here, but in many Churches.

There is a very disturbing trend to water down, add, alter, and not understand what THE Gospel unto Salvation is.

We've had people saying things like repenting of sins and or achieving holiness is what is necessary to get to heaven.
BELIEF IN WHO JESUS IS, AND WHAT HE HAS DONE, IS THE GOSPEL UNTO SALVATION! Period.

You want to talk about how we should act as saved Christians, fine. But make no mistake that it is JESUS who saves. WE are not co-saviors!
We CANNOT compromise on this Gospel.

Satan has been doing this since day one, You would think after 1000's of years, mankind would stop falling for his trick, But nope. we still fall for them.

Just goes to show how utterly weak and helpless mankind is..

 

[Magenta]

I think we have a serious problem here. And not just here, but in many Churches.

There is a very disturbing trend to water down, add, alter, and not understand what THE Gospel unto Salvation is.

We've had people saying things like repenting of sins and or achieving holiness is what is necessary to get to heaven.
BELIEF IN WHO JESUS IS, AND WHAT HE HAS DONE, IS THE GOSPEL UNTO SALVATION! Period.

You want to talk about how we should act as saved Christians, fine. But make no mistake that it is JESUS who saves. WE are not co-saviors!
We CANNOT compromise on this Gospel.

It is the natural man that cannot accept the spiritual things of God and so tries to be good enough to win salvation out of fear. Those who truly know God no longer fear Him because fear has to do with punishment... His perfect love casts out fear.

 

[Yahshua]

Um no, this is in error. James asked people if they CLAIM to have faith, yet have no works. Can their "claimed" faith save them. (ie, all I have to do is believe and I am in) In fact james was speaking to a select group of people who had no faith at all (their faith was dead)

Paul spoke to people who claimed we had to work to earn salvation.. he was fighting legalism.

if we can not get this right. we are doomed to misinterpret them, and cause them to contradict each other.

I agree if we don't get this right we're doomed to misinterpret. James didn't send his letter to random people. Or to Jewish Pharisees. Or pretenders. He sent his letter to believers regarding perfecting their faith. Look below...

James 1:1-4
1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;

3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

Um no, Both paul and James are just as applicable today as it was back then, We have licentious people who think they just have to believe, that need to heare james, and we have legalists who try to impose a works based salvation that need to hear paul

With respect, you're seeking to argue by splitting hairs; creating a disagreement where there isn't one. Paul is speaking about salvation correct? Paul is telling the reading what to do "to be saved" right?

With regard to James; he uses obeying adultery law & not obeying the murder law as an EXAMPLE of being partial with God's law, warning them of falling into MANY temptations (not just sexual ones). The focus of his point is "being a respecter of persons" because that's not "loving *every* neighbor as oneself". That's being partial with God's royal law, so James uses the example of following one commandment and not another to prove his point.

He also said one who claimed to have faith but had no works, faith was dead. And he stated a fact. that faith can not save them.

Paul said we are saved by grace through faith apart from works. But whoever is saved, will work (eph 2: 8-10)

James is stating a fact, If you CLAIM you have faith, but do not have the work Paul said whoever is saved WILL HAVE,, your faith is dead.

Ok. Thanks for the additional truth.

You need to discuss Abraham also.

It's tricky in that when I explain a passage line for line you and other accuse me of changing and twisting. Then when I ask you to read the passage plainly I'm accused of not discussing. But I'll discuss...

James says Abraham was justified by his works in James 2:21. James says in James 2:23 that this fulfilled the scripture which said Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness.

Abraham had to do more than just believe, HE had to have faith..

Thats why James said if we just believe we do well. even demons believe.

No one was ever saved because they mentally agreed (belief) in God.


No, James is stating a fact. If one says he has faith, but has zero zip nada works, his faith is dead. Can that faith (a dead one ) save him?

If you keep my thought complete, yours and my point are the same aren't they? So I'm not sure why you replied to a partial sentence? It was a rhetorical question which I answered.

...but If you're replying against the part where I wrote "perfecting one's faith", then what about the 4th verses of the entire letter that I posted above? Doesn't that establish what James' entire letter is about?

We are holy because God made us holy, Not that we did good works.. We are holy the moment we trust in God..

Can you share the scripture that you're referring to please? I know we are reckoned as righteous the moment we have faith in God, but you say we're holy too, so can you reference what you're talking about?

 

[MadebyHim]

Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. Romans 3:31

Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. James 1:15

And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. James 5:15


Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. James 5:20


If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I agree if we don't get this right we're doomed to misinterpret. James didn't send his letter to random people. Or to Jewish Pharisees. Or pretenders. He sent his letter to believers regarding perfecting their faith. Look below...

James 1:1-4
1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfectand entire, wanting nothing.

He also talked about some of them being hearers of the word and not doers. And showed why he said that.

James is a book I believe written to people to have them test their faith or not.. One of the aspects of testing ones faith is to test if it is real or not..

I can say I have faith a million times, If I do not have even one work to show my faith was real. All I have done is deceived myself into thinking I have real faith.

With respect, you're seeking to argue by splitting hairs; creating a disagreement where there isn't one. Paul is speaking about salvation correct? Paul is telling the reading what to do "to be saved" right?

All do respect. the same could be said of you.

Paul is telling us how not to be saved (by saying we have to work for it) The audience paul wrote to was being over run by legalistic jews, Who claimed it was their forfathers great works that made them righteous, paul is debunking that lie. By showing the gtruth, If Abraham was found (righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the scripture say, Abraham believed (literally had faith in ) God. and it was credited to his account righteousness..

It did nto say Abraham was righteous, It says he was made righteous by that one act of faith.

and again, Look in the OT. This was a stated fact long before Abraham even had one child.. He had not even done a work yet..

He was not seen righteous by his works, but by his faith. HIS work was a BYPRODUCUCT of his faith

With regard to James; he uses obeying adultery law & not obeying the murder law as an EXAMPLE of being partial with God's law, warning them of falling into MANY temptations (not just sexual ones). The focus of his point is "being a respecter of persons" because that's not "loving *every* neighbor as oneself". That's being partial with God's royal law, so James uses the example of following one commandment and not another to prove his point.

It does not explain James 2 and the passage in question.

"[SUP]14 [/SUP]What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?"

It is really simple.

What will it gain anyone if they say they have faith. But has no works. CAN that CLAIMED faith save them?

well of course not, as he later explains, His faith was dead..

This proves james has salvation in mind.. Because he asks, can that faith save them.

Again, He is telling you to examine yourself.. If you say you have faith, But are a hearer of the word only and not a doer of the word. so that you can not even find one good deed, You probably have mere belief, and you need to reconsider and repent. because you have not trusted God,,

Ok. Thanks for the additional truth.

Your welcome, I think..lol

It's tricky in that when I explain a passage line for line you and other accuse me of changing and twisting. Then when I ask you to read the passage plainly I'm accused of not discussing. But I'll discuss...

Maybe because your picking certain parts out. and not the whole passage? That's what I see happen a lot. Not that I am innocent of this myself. I am sure I am guilty at times also.

James says Abraham was justified by his works in James 2:21. James says in James 2:23 that this fulfilled the scripture which said Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness.

And the context of what James said is in the beginning.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

Abraham was saved the moment he had faith, His works accompanied his faith, his faith was not alone.. That is james point..

If you keep my thought complete, yours and my point are the same aren't they? So I'm not sure why you replied to a partial sentence? It was a rhetorical question which I answered.

...but If you're replying against the part where I wrote "perfecting one's faith", then what about the 4th verses of the entire letter that I posted above? Doesn't that establish what James' entire letter is about?

The passage in question is based on the context of the first sentence James uttered. If we take the part about Abraham and works separate from that context. we risk distorting what is said.

Again, I believe James wrote to have people test their faith.. This is one aspect of it. Is your faith even real. or is it in word only.

Can you share the scripture that you're referring to please? I know we are reckoned as righteous the moment we have faith in God, but you say we're holy too, so can you reference what you're talking about?

If we are righteous, we are also holy.

Righteous means innocent, Perfect. in good moral standing.. Holy means set apart. We are holy, because we are declared righteous.

David was considered a man after Gods heart. No one would deny his holiness, Yet david had some majore sin issues..

 

[followjesus]

We get to heaven because we are Holy.

Think about this. We are sinners lost in sin, doomed to destruction.
We hear the gospel, we come to faith, we repent of our sins, confess and put our
faith in Christ and the cross for the forgiveness of our sins.

We are washed clean, made Holy, pure, a dwelling place for the Holy Spirit to dwell in.

We have passed from death to life, a new creation, a member of the Kingdom of Heaven.

Some would say, no we are not clean or purified or Holy, we are still sinners but God
looks at us through Christs righteousness alone, so he sees us as Christ though we are
not.

So which is true? Does God do a real work in our hearts or is it just a fake surface
with an imagined salvation, and that is good enough for God?

Now my experience is Christ washed me clean, though I do stumble along the way
I am counted righteous through my faith and not my walk. And each stumble, I repent
confess and get myself right and carry on along the path.

Now this is theology and the walk put together. But the hub or power is the love we
share in Christ at work in our hearts overflowing to others.

And I would hope, though I am sure I fail in many areas to show this love and desire
for Christ and attract others to our glorious Lord and saviour.

And it is curious, if I said I was a terrible sinner still steeped in sin, would this make the
sharing better, or I rejoice in Christ and His love each day, Amen.

God is merciful indeed, to those who walk after Jesus. to confess there has been no change is revealing proving there is no change. to walk believing you cant possibly do what is right, is such folly and feeds into the enemies hands. Gods mercy is there for what we cant yet acchieve, it isnt there to excuse us to go on living unchanged. the Love of God is to obey Him, in doing this we will Love others because thats what He has always commanded mankind.

1 john 5:2-4 "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 4For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith."

when we stumble theres forgiveness through repentance thats always available, but we press on toward the goal always good post peter i just popped in for a moment hoping to find something worthwhile thanks for taking the time

 

[psalm6819]

Abraham's works were ummmmm not so good. Passing Sarah off as his sister not once but twice, when told to leave his family and home he didn't took his earthly father and moved up river . Then took Lot with him. His belief and faith were counted ad righteousness. Unless you count tnbe above actions as "righteousness"

 

[Yahshua]

He also talked about some of them being hearers of the word and not doers. And showed why he said that.

James is a book I believe written to people to have them test their faith or not.. One of the aspects of testing ones faith is to test if it is real or not..

I can say I have faith a million times, If I do not have even one work to show my faith was real. All I have done is deceived myself into thinking I have real faith.


All do respect. the same could be said of you.

Paul is telling us how not to be saved (by saying we have to work for it) The audience paul wrote to was being over run by legalistic jews, Who claimed it was their forfathers great works that made them righteous, paul is debunking that lie. By showing the gtruth, If Abraham was found (righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the scripture say, Abraham believed (literally had faith in ) God. and it was credited to his account righteousness..

It did nto say Abraham was righteous, It says he was made righteous by that one act of faith.

and again, Look in the OT. This was a stated fact long before Abraham even had one child.. He had not even done a work yet..

He was not seen righteous by his works, but by his faith. HIS work was a BYPRODUCUCT of his faith



It does not explain James 2 and the passage in question.

"[SUP]14 [/SUP]What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?"

It is really simple.

What will it gain anyone if they say they have faith. But has no works. CAN that CLAIMED faith save them?

well of course not, as he later explains, His faith was dead..

This proves james has salvation in mind.. Because he asks, can that faith save them.

Again, He is telling you to examine yourself.. If you say you have faith, But are a hearer of the word only and not a doer of the word. so that you can not even find one good deed, You probably have mere belief, and you need to reconsider and repent. because you have not trusted God,,



Your welcome, I think..lol




Maybe because your picking certain parts out. and not the whole passage? That's what I see happen a lot. Not that I am innocent of this myself. I am sure I am guilty at times also.



And the context of what James said is in the beginning.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

Abraham was saved the moment he had faith, His works accompanied his faith, his faith was not alone.. That is james point..



The passage in question is based on the context of the first sentence James uttered. If we take the part about Abraham and works separate from that context. we risk distorting what is said.

Again, I believe James wrote to have people test their faith.. This is one aspect of it. Is your faith even real. or is it in word only.






If we are righteous, we are also holy.

Righteous means innocent, Perfect. in good moral standing.. Holy means set apart. We are holy, because we are declared righteous.

David was considered a man after Gods heart. No one would deny his holiness, Yet david had some majore sin issues..

Ok thanks EG for your replies. I'm gonna stop here with the line for line replies because I feel that we're simply going to go in circles without getting anywhere.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Ok thanks EG for your replies. I'm gonna stop here with the line for line replies because I feel that we're simply going to go in circles without getting anywhere.

sadly. I would have to agree

 

[resurrection33]

Do you know you can break all those commands without physically doing them?

not so simple is it?

Yes, you have to resist the urge to think about breaking them, also.

 

[resurrection33]

........ditto.

I'll take that as an "Amen."

 

[Yahshua]

The way I see it, there are two camps here that are broken down as follows:

Both groups are for believers living now, *prior* to Christ's coming...​

[TABLE="class: grid, width: 500, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD]I am not Holy but work to become Holy.[/TD]
[TD]I am already Holy because God sees Christ's holiness, and I can never work to become Holy myself.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]I do sin, but I am working to eventually stop sinning through the grace/power of God because through that power I can stop.[/TD]
[TD]I am a sinner who can never stop sinning. To even try is to deny the grace/power of God which covers them, placing me back into judgment.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]There is work for me to do after I am saved by God. Good works[/TD]
[TD]There is no work for me to do else I risk undoing my salvation.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]God expects us to eventually become perfect like Christ; the captain of our salvation & head of the body. Wherever the head goes the body follows.[/TD]
[TD]God doesn't expect us to be perfect because we can never be. Only Christ is perfect. It's why all sins (past, present, future) are covered by his life's blood.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


Hopefully the items in both columns are fairly described for both groups...Of course there are more that can be added to both groups but I think for this thread on holiness what's listed is sufficient.


Now setting aside all arguments for a moment and just looking at both columns from a blank slate (not having to add any further explanation or apologetics to either group), if Christ freed us from bondage to sin, which column sounds like continued bondage to sin...and which column sounds like actual freedom from sin...simply from a basic reading of both lists?

["Bondage" means one is not set free from a person or thing, but is still a slave to continue to obey and do what that person or thing wants.]

 

[Sully]

We get to heaven because we are SAVED. It's a pretty simple concept, really.

It's painfully obvious that some people will need to be dragged into heaven. Maybe salvation has been made too simple for them, they cannot seem to understand that sins have been removed vs. covered annually aka OT.

 

[samuel23]

We go to Heaven because God says that we can, and God says that we can because we have faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[PennEd]

The way I see it, there are two camps here that are broken down as follows:

Both groups are for believers living now, *prior* to Christ's coming...​

[TABLE="class: grid, width: 500, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD]I am not Holy but work to become Holy.[/TD]
[TD]I am already Holy because God sees Christ's holiness, and I can never work to become Holy myself.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]I do sin, but I am working to eventually stop sinning through the grace/power of God because through that power I can stop.[/TD]
[TD]I am a sinner who can never stop sinning. To even try is to deny the grace/power of God which covers them, placing me back into judgment.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]There is work for me to do after I am saved by God. Good works[/TD]
[TD]There is no work for me to do else I risk undoing my salvation.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]God expects us to eventually become perfect like Christ; the captain of our salvation & head of the body. Wherever the head goes the body follows.[/TD]
[TD]God doesn't expect us to be perfect because we can never be. Only Christ is perfect. It's why all sins (past, present, future) are covered by his life's blood.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


Hopefully the items in both columns are fairly described for both groups...Of course there are more that can be added to both groups but I think for this thread on holiness what's listed is sufficient.


Now setting aside all arguments for a moment and just looking at both columns from a blank slate (not having to add any further explanation or apologetics to either group), if Christ freed us from bondage to sin, which column sounds like continued bondage to sin...and which column sounds like actual freedom from sin...simply from a basic reading of both lists?

["Bondage" means one is not set free from a person or thing, but is still a slave to continue to obey and do what that person or thing wants.]

That may be the way YOU see it, but I utterly reject being forced into one of your groupings.

 

[resurrection33]

That may be the way YOU see it, but I utterly reject being forced into one of your groupings.

I am willing to join group 1.

 

[Yahshua]

That may be the way YOU see it, but I utterly reject being forced into one of your groupings.

Ok I thought I was being fair about it but that's all fine by me. I hope you know that Christ has only two groupings too, one of which we both will be forced into at the end of days: The Sheep and The Goats. I hope we both find ourselves in the right group when that time comes. We surely won't be able to utterly reject where we're put.

 

[MessageOfTheCross]

I think we have a serious problem here. And not just here, but in many Churches.

There is a very disturbing trend to water down, add, alter, and not understand what THE Gospel unto Salvation is.

We've had people saying things like repenting of sins and or achieving holiness is what is necessary to get to heaven.
BELIEF IN WHO JESUS IS, AND WHAT HE HAS DONE, IS THE GOSPEL UNTO SALVATION! Period.

You want to talk about how we should act as saved Christians, fine. But make no mistake that it is JESUS who saves. WE are not co-saviors!
We CANNOT compromise on this Gospel.

Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. Rev. 2:5

I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. Rev. 3:18-19

 

[PennEd]

Yup. There will be no "shoats" in the Kingdom.
I completely and with my whole heart trust in JESUS to save me. His blood alone atones for my sin. And it is a great offense to Him to think ANYTHING I do can ever change who He is and what He has done for me.

He saves completely. I AM NOT A CO-SAVIOR!
Now that I am saved, we can discuss what to do as a child of God. That's really what James is all about. You can almost hear James saying " you're a Christian? Fantastic!! Now what?"

But the Salvation part is 100% Jesus! I play NO part in atoning for my sin.
Thank you sweet Holy Lord!! I love you!