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We get to heaven because we are Holy
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Perhaps someone can respond to the questions in post #74:
Are you saying Abraham was righteous because he obeyed God's commands by faith?
If we remove the obedience is there still the righteousness? What if there was no faith?
Why does Paul say not by works in Romans? What are those works?
Are you saying Abraham was righteous because he obeyed God's commands by faith?
If we remove the obedience is there still the righteousness? What if there was no faith?
Why does Paul say not by works in Romans? What are those works?
I've been ready to discuss. I won't say anything else to him because it's clear to me what spirit is causing this. Our war isn't with flesh and blood but with principalities.
However One things is for certain: the truth affects a real change in the character of a person. So no matter which side a person falls on in a discussion the fruits of that person's spirit will shine through for what's there, good or bad. Those with the Spirit of God show it in their replies which are *always* in love, even when voicing disagreement. And it's at those moments when you know that the law of God is fulfilled in them, because they love me and others like they love themselves.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
Abraham was found righteous because he had trust in God (faith) before he did one work.
His work proceeded out from his faith.. He was not found righteous BECAUSE of his work.. If he got what he deserved, he would have gotten death, We all would.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
James' lesson presupposes the reader is already "of the faith", while Paul in the Romans passage is speaking about what's necessary to be saved. So for us today (i.e. we believers) James' guidance in his writings apply to us more right now than what Paul says in Romans. We are already of the faith, but there is a process of growing to perfect our faith that we must walk out.
Notice in James that he say in James 2:12
"So speak, and do, as they that shall be judged BY the LAW of liberty."
Speak and do as someone who will be judged...James doesn't say speak and do BECAUSE you will be judged. In other words, james is saying it's time to walk one's talk.
Now regarding Abraham; I'm not saying anything I just want to post again what James says to see how you interpret it
The question I ask is, if all Abraham had to do was believe why does James say this about Abraham as an example that "faith without works is dead"? It's because James is speaking about "perfecting" one's faith. Sanctification. Walking in Holiness.
Genesis 22:18
"And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice."
Faith = Salvation
Obedience (i.e. faith with works) = Holiness
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
Um no, this is in error. James asked people if they CLAIM to have faith, yet have no works. Can their "claimed" faith save them. (ie, all I have to do is believe and I am in) In fact james was speaking to a select group of people who had no faith at all (their faith was dead)
Paul spoke to people who claimed we had to work to earn salvation.. he was fighting legalism.
if we can not get this right. we are doomed to misinterpret them, and cause them to contradict each other.
Um no, Both paul and James are just as applicable today as it was back then, We have licentious people who think they just have to believe, that need to heare james, and we have legalists who try to impose a works based salvation that need to hear paul
He also said one who claimed to have faith but had no works, faith was dead. And he stated a fact. that faith can not save them.
Paul said we are saved by grace through faith apart from works. But whoever is saved, will work (eph 2: 8-10)
James is stating a fact, If you CLAIM you have faith, but do not have the work Paul said whoever is saved WILL HAVE,, your faith is dead.
You need to discuss Abraham also.
Abraham had to do more than just believe, HE had to have faith..
Thats why James said if we just believe we do well. even demons believe.
No one was ever saved because they mentally agreed (belief) in God.
No, James is stating a fact. If one says he has faith, but has zero zip nada works, his faith is dead. Can that faith (a dead one ) save him?
We are holy because God made us holy, Not that we did good works.. We are holy the moment we trust in God..
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
oh they are? Jesus would disagree with you..(sermon on the mount)
and the commands do not show every type of sin a person can commit..
Abraham was counted as righteous. not because of works, but because of pure faith (Rom 4.4-5). His faith was 'counted as righteousness'.
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We get to heaven because of our faith in Jesus Christ and that alone. We could NEVER be "good" enough, nor "holy" enough on our own merit. We are sanctified, made holy, because of what Christ accomplished and our faith IN him. That is what sets our position IN Christ, IN the family of God as sons and daughters of the most High . . . . that and that alone is what secures our destination of everlasting life.
They’re pretty simple:
“You know the commandments: `Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother.'" Luke 18:20 RSV
because he responded by faith,
The obedience proves the faith, but it was not the obedience that was counted as righteous.
all his acts of obedience. He was saved through the faith by which he listened to God not by his obedience. Obedience followed the faith
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FreeNChrist
Guest
I think we are all aware that for you, your response to every thread is going to be to just repent. You might as well just say "ditto" and save yourself the typing....we will know what you mean.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
Do you know you can break all those commands without physically doing them?
not so simple is it?
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FreeNChrist
Guest
When you know your heart you ARE a terrible sinner, as well as a redeemed holy saint. So are we all.
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true.
Because God as made them holy. But they are still 'terrible sinners'.