Not By Works

[eternally-gratefull]

I agree. He seems like a very sweet person. I think he means well. I like metaphors and I kind of look at it like this.

I am a guitar player, and have been for 30 plus years. And a pretty good one....I could entertain myself for hours. Lol. About 10 years ago a guy told me that while I was a good player my tone SUCKED. It wasn't pleasing to other peoples ears....it didn't sit well in a band mix. It really hurt but it was the truth.

It was then that I "turned my ears on" and started searching for the tone ALL the pros have. It literally took me ten years to get there....and I am STILL refining and bettering my "tone". Peter needs to "turn on his ears".

as a wanna be guitar player, having been kicked out of a good bad for the same reason. I know what you mean..

just because we can talk the talk and walk the walk does not mean we are actual speakers of the word.. In music, we need to let the music do the talking. In the word. we need to let God do the talking.

In either case. we have to listen to what the music and or God is tryign to say,, otherwise, we walk around as decieved musicians christians thinking we know it, and practice it,, But blinded to the fact no one can hear, (not even ourselves) because we have tainted the words/tone)

hope this makes sense..lol..

 

[FreeNChrist]

This is an odd attack. Here is gb9 slandering me, raising all kinds of accusations,
when I am being encouraging to another brother.

So I am not supposed to encourage people or see someone in need and respond to that need.
And I always apologise for things I know about, but cannot apologise for things I either do not
know or do not agree with.

And there are heretical beliefs, one of which is future sin forgiven.
Now I have come to understand more clearly why I take this view and can
explain it. I have good reason to call it a heresy, because logically it leads
to lawlessness and corruption of the faith. But ofcourse those who think
this is perfectly fine, hate me saying this or declaring it openly, like gb9.

But thankyou gb9 for bringing this up again.

Future sin forgiven is unbelief that in the cross we do not have forgiveness
and grace to deal with sin once we are made clean pure and holy.

But then these believers never accept they were ever clean, pure or holy.
And that is a fundamental denial of the work of the cross or a spiritual reality
of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in a Holy temple. How on earth or in heaven
would the Holy Spirit dwell in a impure temple. Pauls whole argument is we
are a pure temple.

But then from this group often teachers say they can be possessed by evil
spirits at the same time as being baptised in the Holy Spirit. It is a theology
at war with itself, saying the Holy Spirit does not cast out all before it.

This kind of belief system is more superstition than victory through the cross,
as typified emotions and the heart are not involved in knowing Christ and being
saved. Talk about the blind leading the blind. At this rate you get married because
you fancy a bit of sex, but love has nothing to do with it.

I suggest you learn what genuine heresy is. As this forum is overrun with real true heresy. And it ain't just anything you disagree with.

 

[PeterJens]

It ain't gonna happen. Not until the day Peter realizes his mouth is writing checks his will can't cash. All he's got is religious rhetoric. He is fluent in Christianese. Bless you my son. Lol

You are all a cynical bunch. It speaks to me of unbelief.
I am not into "church" or the traditions of men, or even their favour.

You cannot accept someone who just loves from their heart.
It is like you have walked a path of trying to please God all your lives, and got burnt out.
The words no longer have meaning and you have chosen to bail out.

Now I know hard hearts when I hear them. And nothing I say makes any difference, because
nothing can reach you. All the language has been filtered and bounced off.

My test for you is simple, when did you last grieve for another human being, just weep over
some great loss or trauma? If you are so shut down this is impossible, you need to start
to learn how to feel and empathise again or even for the first time.

Walking in Christ is all about the ability to do this. God has sympathy with us because He
empathises with us, knows us and deeply cares.

Now based on what you guys have written and how everything I have shared is as nothing,
God bless you, I pray and Hope you come to know what love really is, and are not trapped
in this world of grace without obligation or hurt. Praise and glory to Christ and the Father
forever, Amen.

 

[PeterJens]

I suggest you learn what genuine heresy is. As this forum is overrun with real true heresy. And it ain't just anything you disagree with.

There is a discussion to be had.
And this discussion is about technology, medicine and sexual desire.

When to be human was to survive, to have faithful relationships, to honour those you
loved things were pretty clear cut.

One wrong sexual contact, and you could be condemned to a slow, agonising death, which
your wife or husband would also suffer. Morality was really brutal.

Now much of these things have been tamed, sexual freedoms reign, and almost any orientation
is being deemed as something you need to identify and live with.

Any judgmental or survival moral code of the past is now looked on as evil, lies, oppression, while
in reality it kept the world alive and gave it real direction.

I have seen what unbridled legalism does to a society and the abandonment of conscience, love
and real morality. Unfortunately you are condemning the very foundations of christian morality
and strength and replacing it with lawlessness. Calling this truth, and the heresy is obeying
Christ and His word, is not the work of the Holy Spirit.

Our society wants to blame bad feelings as evil, so stop any negative thoughts or reality,
but this is just evil speaking and justifying itself by attacking any proper acknowledgment of
the consequences of our actions.

Take pornography which now is accessible to children. This is destroying so many lives, distorting
how we relate and interact, yet so much silence and lack of grasping sexual desire, sharing, being
open and honest. But for you guys, say nothing about sin, just praise the Lord and believe we are
all saved, guaranteed a place in heaven. Insane. This is the great apostacy.

 

[FreeNChrist]

There is a discussion to be had.
And this discussion is about technology, medicine and sexual desire.

When to be human was to survive, to have faithful relationships, to honour those you
loved things were pretty clear cut.

One wrong sexual contact, and you could be condemned to a slow, agonising death, which
your wife or husband would also suffer. Morality was really brutal.

Now much of these things have been tamed, sexual freedoms reign, and almost any orientation
is being deemed as something you need to identify and live with.

Any judgmental or survival moral code of the past is now looked on as evil, lies, oppression, while
in reality it kept the world alive and gave it real direction.

I have seen what unbridled legalism does to a society and the abandonment of conscience, love
and real morality. Unfortunately you are condemning the very foundations of christian morality
and strength and replacing it with lawlessness. Calling this truth, and the heresy is obeying
Christ and His word, is not the work of the Holy Spirit.

Our society wants to blame bad feelings as evil, so stop any negative thoughts or reality,
but this is just evil speaking and justifying itself by attacking any proper acknowledgment of
the consequences of our actions.

Take pornography which now is accessible to children. This is destroying so many lives, distorting
how we relate and interact, yet so much silence and lack of grasping sexual desire, sharing, being
open and honest. But for you guys, say nothing about sin, just praise the Lord and believe we are
all saved, guaranteed a place in heaven. Insane. This is the great apostacy.

And all of that relates to your lack of knowing what is genuine heresy and what is not, how??

 

[PeterJens]

And all of that relates to your lack of knowing what is genuine heresy and what is not, how??

FNC ???? I just share. I do not expect you to understand or follow.

God bless you my friend, May Christ grant you wisdom into His wonders of grace and love,
In Jesus's Name, Amen

 

[FreeNChrist]

FNC ???? I just share. I do not expect you to understand or follow.

God bless you my friend, May Christ grant you wisdom into His wonders of grace and love,
In Jesus's Name, Amen

LOL. Oh, okay...........

 

[garee]

But then these believers never accept they were ever clean, pure or holy.And that is a fundamental denial of the work of the cross or a spiritual reality of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in a Holy temple.

As new creatures (passing from eternal death, to eternal spirit life ) We have that cleansing authority, the water of the word in us ...but it never to be assumed it is of us, if it is of Christ. Our treasure is heavenward .Because He does purify us with the water of His word our hearts will follow .

2Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us

How on earth or in heaven would the Holy Spirit dwell in a impure temple. Pauls whole argument is we
are a pure temple.

And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Act 15:8

Christ according to his work of faith does all the purifying needed .If he has begun that good work in us he will finish it to the end.This is knowing those who he does draw will come they could never be cast out . If we would think the purifying is a wonderful work we perform as the man in Mathew 7, we would I believe expect the same reply .”I never knew you hat works iniquity. Christ did not say he did not perform the works which we are required to do .Just that we do not know Christ by something we can do. He gives us His faith to make the work possible. We accredit it all to Him . Not like the man in Mathew 7 who blasphemed the holy name we are called by.

Even Christ lived in a corruptible body of death. Just as His flesh likened as sinful did not profit neither would ours .

Our goal I believe is that we work with Him, He makes the work easier. Knowing we have been forgiven we can be purified . .

 

[Seohce]

OT/ the law of Moses prohibits (Deut 5:7-21)

NT/ the law of Christ encourages to do good works thru “FAITH THAT WORKETH IN LOVE”(gal 5:6)

Galatians 6:2-10 Carry each other’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. IF ANYONE THINKS HE IS SOMETHING WHEN HE IS NOTHING, HE DECEIVES HIMSELF. Each one should test his own actions. Then he can take pride in himself, WITHOUT COMPARING himself to somebody else, for each one should carry his own load. Anyone who receives instruction in the word must share all good things with his instructor. Do not be deceived: GOD CANNOT BE MOCKED. A man REAPS WHAT HE SOWS. The one who SOWS TO PLEASE HIS SINFUL NATURE , from that nature will REAP DESTRUCTION; the one who SOWS to please the SPIRIT, from the Spirit will REAP ETERNAL LIFE. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. Therefore, as we have opportunity, LET US DO GOOD to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

IF WE DON’T CONSIDER GOOD WORKS- (GOD’S WORKS IN US, FOR WE CANNOT DO ANYTHING GOOD WITHOUT GOD IN US) -RELEVANT TO OUR SALVATION, THEN WE ARE NOT TO BE CONSIDERED A PART OF THE BODY OF CHRIST WHO DOES HIS (GOOD) WORKS BEING LED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT.(Ref.John 14:12)

1 Corinthians 3:9 For we are GOD’S FELLOW WORKERS; you are God’s field, God’s building.

Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, HIS BODY OF WHICH HE IS THE SAVIOR.


Matthew 18:6-9,32-35 But if anyone causes one of these little ones WHO BELIEVE IN ME to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. “Woe to the world because of the things that CAUSE PEOPLE TO SIN! Such things must come, but WOE TO THE MAN through whom they come! If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to ENTER LIFE maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be THROWN INTO ETERNAL FIRE . And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to ENTER LIFE with one eye than to have two eyes and be THROWN INTO the fire of HELL. “Then the master called the SERVANT in. ‘You WICKED servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. Shouldn’t you have had MERCY on your FELLOW servant just as I had on you?’ In anger his master turned him over to the jailers TO BE TORTURED, until he should pay back all he owed.

“THIS IS HOW MY HEAVENLY FATHER WILL TREAT EACH OF YOU unless you FORGIVE your brother FROM YOUR HEART.”

Luke 6:46-49 “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and DO NOT DO what I say? I will show you what he is like who comes to me and hears my words and PUTS THEM INTO PRACTICE. He is like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built. But the one who hears my words and DOES NOT put them into PRACTICE is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its DESTRUCTION was complete.”


1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: NEITHER the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor THE GREEDY nor drunkards NOR SLANDERERS nor swindlers WILL INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

lEphesians 5:5-6 For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one DECEIVE you with EMPTY WORDS, for because of such things GOD’S WRATH comes on those who are DISOBEDIENT.

Romans 1:32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things DESERVE DEATH, they not only CONTINUE TO DO these very things but also APPROVE of those who PRACTICE them.


In 2 Peter 2:1-3,18-22 (False Teachers and Their Destruction)” But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. MANY WILL FOLLOW their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their GREED these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by APPEALING to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they ENTICE people who are just escaping from those who live in error. THEY PROMISE THEM FREEDOM, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him. If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and OVERCOME, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud." (Ref. Heb 6:4-8)
.

2 Corinthians 11:13-15 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve. "


Psalm 49:13 This is the fate of those who trust in themselves, and of THEIR FOLLOWERS WHO APPROVE THEIR SAYINGS. Selah

Titus 1:15-16 To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their MINDS and CONSCIENCES are CORRUPTED. They claim to know God,(*EVEN DEVILS BELIEVE THAT & SHUDDER*) but by THEIR ACTIONS they DENY HIM. They are DETESTABLE, DISOBEDIENT and UNFIT FOR DOING anything GOOD.

Jude 1:16,19 These men are GRUMBLERS and FAULTFINDERS; they follow their own evil desires; they BOAST ABOUT THEMSELVES and FLATTER OTHERS for their own advantage. These are the MEN WHO DIVIDE YOU, who follow mere natural instincts and DO NOT HAVE THE SPIRIT.

1 Corinthians 12:3,6 Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.

AMEN!

 

[bingbing]

There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.

 

[dcontroversal]

There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.

AMEN....and at the end of the day the works are the result of one who has already been born of the spirit A.K.A. saved.....

The word of God is SPIRITUAL in origin and understanding...one cannot understand the word of God and do the works that thee word points to unless they are saved.....

See, the "seemingly" contradiction comes because people TOTALLY miss the context of Romans and James when it comes to the faith and the application of said faith....

In Romans, Paul is speaking to our faith justifying us BEFORE GOD without the works attached....<--ABRAHAM believed GOD and it was put to his account as RIGHTEOUSNESS<--THE JUST shall live by faith

In JAMES, JAMES is speaking to our invisible, inward faith that justifies as being seen by men and how it is seen by men...the key is found in the two words.....SHOW ME<-----HOW can I SEE the faith that saves and justifies before GOD as described above...the same faith that justified Abraham before GOD....

I can see it in the fruit or works that comes from said faith......

Abraham believed God and was justified....the fact that Abraham had faith is evidenced in his actions....HE left for the promised land not knowing where he was even going, he was circumcised, he offered Isaac.......ALL WERE RESULTS of the FAITH HE ALREADY HAD before he did the works...

THE WORKS did not save him, justify him, keep him saved and or facilitate his salvation....that was a current possession BEFORE the works..........

Those who teach faith plus works for salvation or justification before GOD<---GALATIANS calls this a false gospel with no power and one that is double cursed.......

 

[valiant]

Interesting statement.

Paul regarded salvation as something like a prize.

Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him.

Salvation results all from God's grace and is the gift of God. By definition it cannot therefore be a 'prize' to be won, The crown of life is not a prize to be won but a gift to be received. Paul ls saying here that the one who is God's WILL persevere because of God's enabling.

Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.
2 Tim 4:8

true of all believers.

And a prize is a gift from one party to another, because the giving party
decides to offer it. There are no rules or conditions except that which
the giver decides

.

A prize is earned, it Is not a gift. There are certain requirements which have to be achieved to receive a prize. This is not so with a gift.

This is exactly what salvation is. A gift, a prize, a present given to those
God loves and have found favour with Him.

Salvation is a gift given not a prize obtainable. It is GIVEN to those who are undeserving, who have done NOTHING to 'find favour'. God treats with favour those who have NOT found favour by anything they have done. Grace is UNDESERVED favour.

God does not give this to people He hates or who hate Him.

That is precisely what God DOES do, otherwise none of us would receive His favour (Rom 5.9-ll).

And God can hate because He is love, and without grace or forgiveness sinners
will find just judgement and their final destination.

That is true. It is through His undeserved favour that we have life and salvation.

 

[JIMBO43]

…13Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have laid hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize of God’s heavenly calling in Christ Jesus. 1...


Verse1 Corinthians 9:24

New International Version
Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize.



and let us run with endurance the race set out for us. 2Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of our faith,

 

[JIMBO43]

3 Proven Ways to Run the Race That is Set before Us - Topical Studies

 

[JIMBO43]

[h=1]Hebrews 12:1[/h]
1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us,

 

[JIMBO43]

3Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have laid hold of it. (the inspired word of God claiming i do not declare i have laid hold of my Jewel yet..) But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize of God’s heavenly calling in Christ Jesus. 1...

 

[dcontroversal]

3Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have laid hold of it. (the inspired word of God claiming i do not declare i have laid hold of my Jewel yet..) But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize of God’s heavenly calling in Christ Jesus. 1...

Salvation is not a prize to be won....it is a GIFT at the moment of belief..........

 

[dcontroversal]

You are all a cynical bunch. It speaks to me of unbelief.
I am not into "church" or the traditions of men, or even their favour.

.

This speaks volumes....

Those who are NOT INTO CHURCH count the blood of JESUS a COMMON ordinary BASE thing and trample under foot the SON of GOD.....

NOT forsaking the assembling of ourselves together as the manner of SOME is, <--(PEOPLE NOT INTO CHURCH) but exhorting one another so much the more as you see the day approaching.....!

Your colors are showing.......

 

[Roughsoul1991]

[h=1]James 2:22-24Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][FONT=&quot]22 You see that faith was active together with his works, and by works, faith was perfected. 23 So the Scripture was fulfilled that says, Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness,[a] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[/FONT]
[h=1]James 2:17New International Version (NIV)[/h][FONT=&quot]17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

[/FONT]
[h=1]Ephesians 2:8-9New International Version (NIV)[/h][FONT=&quot]8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

[/FONT]
[h=1]Ephesians 2:10New International Version (NIV)[/h][FONT=&quot]10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

[/FONT]
[h=1]John 14:15New International Version (NIV)[/h][FONT=&quot]15 “If you love me, keep my commands.

[/FONT]
[h=1]John 8:31-32New International Version (NIV)[/h][FONT=&quot]31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

[/FONT]
[h=1]Matthew 26:41New International Version (NIV)[/h][FONT=&quot]41 “Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.”

The Spirit is willing but our fallen human nature is weak. We must carry our cross daily and allow the spirit to work in us as we become the hands and feet of Jesus doing the good works he has planned for his people to do. Faith without action is dead. Your just a fan of Jesus but not really a follower of Jesus. You like what Jesus has to offer but not willing to give your whole life to Jesus. Grace is a gift that is freely given but a gift is something not forced on anyone. They can take the gift in love or deny the gift. Whoever believe they are saved by saying a few words to invite Jesus in and goes to church most Sundays may be very surprised once death occurs and Jesus says I never knew you. The bible tells us if we love and truly want to follow Jesus then this includes giving to the poor, visiting with inmates, helping the widows and children with no parents just to name a tiny few. We are called to meet people where they are and except who they are. And so faith and action works hand in hand you cant have one without the other. The fruit of the tree will either have good fruit or bad fruit and this is the signs of a true follower by what kind of fruit is produced.

[/FONT]
[h=1]Hebrews 10:26-27Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][h=3]Warning against Deliberate Sin[/h][FONT=&quot]26 For if we deliberately sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire about to consume the adversaries.

How many us deliberately sin everyday? Do you repent? Do you try to truly correct it? Repentance is key and acknowledgement we need Jesus to help us everyday in life. Do we truly listen to the Holy Spirit when it speaks to us?

[/FONT]
[h=1]Hebrews 10:36Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][FONT=&quot]36 For you need endurance, so that after you have done God’s will, you may receive what was promised.

Our fallen nature is weak and without God working in us endurance would fail. Everyday we must wake up and choose to follow God and his word. After all, God does not like puppets but for his people to freely choose to follow him everyday. [/FONT]

 

[PeterJens]

This speaks volumes....

Those who are NOT INTO CHURCH count the blood of JESUS a COMMON ordinary BASE thing and trample under foot the SON of GOD.....

NOT forsaking the assembling of ourselves together as the manner of SOME is, <--(PEOPLE NOT INTO CHURCH) but exhorting one another so much the more as you see the day approaching.....!

Your colors are showing.......

Let me put my words into context.
I go to church, I participate in house groups, I do various groups and outreach
within the fellowship.

So I am a churchman, and have been most of my life, but I am not "into church"
as if it defines who I am, part of a group, because I follow my Lord with my brothers
and sisters.

So it is easy to miss-understand my comments. My unfortunate disposition is to see
what the Lord says rather than merely rely on the preacher.

It is always easier to let the preacher dictate ones spiritual focus, which is partly their
role. A lot of church attenders are good sunday christians, because the rest of the
week swamps their faith and efforts.