Acts /1cor 12, 13, 14 baptsim in the HG and gifts of the Spirit

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wolfwint

wolfwint

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#161
Feb 15, 2014
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#161
CS1 said:
the reason why is we are adopted into the family of God. and a adopted son has all rights as a nature born son correct? So if salvation came to the Jews which it did and the Spirit came on them as HE did . the same salvation saved the gentile. The Same Holy Spirit empowered the gentiles as HE did the Jews . yes Peter did explain this wonderful event in Acts 2. But he also said this was for all that the Lord should call.
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Well, at first I agree as I wrote before that we are adopter in His family, according Romans 9-11. But that what Peter quotet from Joel was only a partly fullfillment. In the context from Joel 2, 27-32 you will find that before GOD is pouring out the Spirit Israel is accepting The Lord Jesus as
Messiah. That has not happens while Pentecost! And also the Spirit was not given to all Israelites during Pentecost. Only to the believers in Jesus Christ. Jews and Gentiles.
But I don't see Joel 2 compleate fullfilled and I see also not that Christianity is instead of Israel Gods folk. And how you explaine that only one part of Christianity has the sign gifts and the other part not. But all claim to have the Holy Spirit?
This makes no sence because Joel 2 describes an act which is going out from God without influence of the people who will get the Spirit. This was not happend at Pentecost and not till today!
 
CS1

CS1

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#162
May 23, 2012
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#162
wolfwint said:
Well, at first I agree as I wrote before that we are adopter in His family, according Romans 9-11. But that what Peter quotet from Joel was only a partly fullfillment. In the context from Joel 2, 27-32 you will find that before GOD is pouring out the Spirit Israel is accepting The Lord Jesus as
Messiah. That has not happens while Pentecost! And also the Spirit was not given to all Israelites during Pentecost. Only to the believers in Jesus Christ. Jews and Gentiles.
But I don't see Joel 2 compleate fullfilled and I see also not that Christianity is instead of Israel Gods folk. And how you explaine that only one part of Christianity has the sign gifts and the other part not. But all claim to have the Holy Spirit?
This makes no sence because Joel 2 describes an act which is going out from God without influence of the people who will get the Spirit. This was not happend at Pentecost and not till today!
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ok if you don't see at as that ( Joel 2) but you have to deal with what Peter said about the event and it was Peter who said it was in Acts 2. Peter very clear said this was that which was spoken by the Prophet Joel. Fulfilled in context means then event happened not that it has stopped.
 
notuptome

notuptome

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#163
May 17, 2013
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#163
CS1 said:
ok if you don't see at as that ( Joel 2) but you have to deal with what Peter said about the event and it was Peter who said it was in Acts 2. Peter very clear said this was that which was spoken by the Prophet Joel. Fulfilled in context means then event happened not that it has stopped.
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You are correct that Peter said this is that which the prophet Joel spoke of in Joel 2. You are also correct that Peter is speaking of the pouring out of the Holy Spirit on all flesh which we know to be the baptism that regenerates the soul unto eternal life. It is also true that the pouring out of the Holy Spirit has not ended as men are getting saved every day and Christ is adding to His church as He said He would.

There has never been a prophet like Jesus and there has not been a prophet since Jesus. Men and women may prophecy today but prophecy today is the proclaiming of Gods word and giving knowledge through the proclamation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
CS1

CS1

Well-known member
#164
May 23, 2012
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#164
notuptome said:
You are correct that Peter said this is that which the prophet Joel spoke of in Joel 2. You are also correct that Peter is speaking of the pouring out of the Holy Spirit on all flesh which we know to be the baptism that regenerates the soul unto eternal life. It is also true that the pouring out of the Holy Spirit has not ended as men are getting saved every day and Christ is adding to His church as He said He would.

There has never been a prophet like Jesus and there has not been a prophet since Jesus. Men and women may prophecy today but prophecy today is the proclaiming of Gods word and giving knowledge through the proclamation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
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amen I agree there has not been a prophet like Jesus nor will ever be But as you know Jesus was much more than a Prophet . and Prophecy or one who does so in context to 1 cor 12, 13, 14 is not the Office of a prophet . Prophesying is proclaiming the Word of God under the Inspiration of the Holy Spirit doing so doesn't make one a Prophet.
 
notuptome

notuptome

Senior Member
#165
May 17, 2013
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#165
CS1 said:
amen I agree there has not been a prophet like Jesus nor will ever be But as you know Jesus was much more than a Prophet . and Prophecy or one who does so in context to 1 cor 12, 13, 14 is not the Office of a prophet . Prophesying is proclaiming the Word of God under the Inspiration of the Holy Spirit doing so doesn't make one a Prophet.
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Ephesians 4:11 and Romans 12:1 ¶ I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;
8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
P

popeye

Guest
#166
#166
wolfwint said:
Because their are no references in the bible of that what you called second work of the Holy Spirit
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What bible do you have?

Paul,after his encounter with Jesus,recieved the Holy Spirit through the laying on of hands,as did others AFTER SALVATION.

Jesus Himself told them "..to tarry in Jerusalem for power",and even explained they would receive a different baptism that was not with water.

More than one place,the Holy Spirit was given through the laying on of hands.

So,under your false non biblical assumptions,you erroneously believe that salvation comes through the laying on of hands,and that the disciples were not saved until the day of Pentecost,since you combine all into a single work of salvation.
 
CS1

CS1

Well-known member
#167
May 23, 2012
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#167
popeye said:
What bible do you have?

Paul,after his encounter with Jesus,recieved the Holy Spirit through the laying on of hands,as did others AFTER SALVATION.

Jesus Himself told them "..to tarry in Jerusalem for power",and even explained they would receive a different baptism that was not with water.

More than one place,the Holy Spirit was given through the laying on of hands.

So,under your false non biblical assumptions,you erroneously believe that salvation comes through the laying on of hands,and that the disciples were not saved until the day of Pentecost,since you combine all into a single work of salvation.
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I'm sure who Wolfwint was talking to I think he was speaking to Popeye. But I did not say anything about the second work of the Holy Spirit because no where in the bible is that used. And the suggestion is or could be "if there is a second why not a third of fourth ?.
 
wolfwint

wolfwint

Senior Member
#168
Feb 15, 2014
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#168
popeye said:
What bible do you have?

Paul,after his encounter with Jesus,recieved the Holy Spirit through the laying on of hands,as did others AFTER SALVATION.

Jesus Himself told them "..to tarry in Jerusalem for power",and even explained they would receive a different baptism that was not with water.

More than one place,the Holy Spirit was given through the laying on of hands.

So,under your false non biblical assumptions,you erroneously believe that salvation comes through the laying on of hands,and that the disciples were not saved until the day of Pentecost,since you combine all into a single work of salvation.
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Hi Popeye, I use Elberfelder, Luther and ürich Bible most. In English I use KJ 2000 (its on my bible program)
Yes Paul received the filling with the Holy Spirit from Hananias.
You can create from this the doctrine, that everybody who has recived the Holy Spirit and then is born again, need another baptising for to recieve the empowerment of the Holy Spirit.
But, you can see all this events (Acts 2,8,9,10, 19) also as an one time sign for the Jews that the way from Jesus is the right way and that gentiles, samarians, Saul, disciples of John the baptist are equal in the plan of God to get salvation through the faith to Jesus.
If you were rigth with your doctrine, we we cant find this in the letters as a doctrine for the church? (Because it seems really important for every christian) Why we cant find this teaching in the whole churchhistory? So far I know Parham and the bretheren around him taught this doctrine first! That means all christians before had to struggle, because they dont had the empowerment from the Holy Spirit for their ministry! And the gift of speaking in tongues as sign for that empowerment.
specific this doctrine I cant find in the bible!
We need to let the Holy Spirit work through us, but this is another topic.
 
wolfwint

wolfwint

Senior Member
#169
Feb 15, 2014
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#169
Sorry, i mean Zürich Bible; and I mean: "why we cant find this.......
I should read again first before send
 
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samuel23

Banned
#170
Dec 2, 2016
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#170
I was saved in a Baptist Church, went into the Pentecostal movement and came out the other side. There are many Christians in the Pentecostal movement, however I have come to believe through personal experience and much honest study that the present day Pentecostal movement is not of God. 95% of your really screwed up Christians who make the news came out of Pentecostalism, why? Because the movement is full of false spirits that people are calling the Holy Spirit and are worshipping. The most clear example of how we are saved and receive the Holy Spirit was the 3000 that got saved on the day of pentecost, they were saved and baptized in the Holy Spirit at the same experience and never had to seek another baptism of the Spirit as Pentecostals teach today. Pentecostals ignore the 3000 and concentrate on the apostles who had a unique experience with Jesus...our example are the 3000 and the household of Cornelius. The bible simply does not teach two baptisms of the Holy Spirit, one at salvation and another where one speaks in tongues. Peter, John, James, Paul, could never be Pentecostals as the title is used today because they never taught in their letters of instruction to Christians that any Christian should seek to be baptized in the Spirit, that would have been absurd to them since they were baptized at conversion in the Spirit.
 
CS1

CS1

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#171
May 23, 2012
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#171
samuel23 said:
I was saved in a Baptist Church, went into the Pentecostal movement and came out the other side. There are many Christians in the Pentecostal movement, however I have come to believe through personal experience and much honest study that the present day Pentecostal movement is not of God. 95% of your really screwed up Christians who make the news came out of Pentecostalism, why? Because the movement is full of false spirits that people are calling the Holy Spirit and are worshipping. The most clear example of how we are saved and receive the Holy Spirit was the 3000 that got saved on the day of pentecost, they were saved and baptized in the Holy Spirit at the same experience and never had to seek another baptism of the Spirit as Pentecostals teach today. Pentecostals ignore the 3000 and concentrate on the apostles who had a unique experience with Jesus...our example are the 3000 and the household of Cornelius. The bible simply does not teach two baptisms of the Holy Spirit, one at salvation and another where one speaks in tongues. Peter, John, James, Paul, could never be Pentecostals as the title is used today because they never taught in their letters of instruction to Christians that any Christian should seek to be baptized in the Spirit, that would have been absurd to them since they were baptized at conversion in the Spirit.
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that is your opinion but far from the truth. you paint with a very board brush 95% of what you see on TV maybe that way but it is really a small fraction of Pentecostal churches . many of the ones you are speaking of are Independent and not from main line Pentecostal churches but left and went on their own. You clearly do not know what you are speaking about . I understand you have issues with certain people who name themselves Pentecostal or charismatics but as you said "there are many Christians in the Pentecostal movement". I do not call it a movement . The Holy Spirit was given to the disciples when Jesus breathed on them found in the gospel of John. They were told to wait until they received Power on High. The term Baptism of the Holy Spirit came from the gospels where John the Baptist said " HE(Jesus) will Baptize you with the Holy Ghost and fire. This event did not happen after Jesus is recorded in John Gospel " receive the Holy Ghost" then HE told them to go and wait the Book of Acts very clearly shows what they were waiting for The Disciples were already saved and had the Holy Spirit . what happen in Acts 2 came after their salvation. you can find this in John 20:22 what happen when Jesus breathed on them? I think Luke explains what happened to them [TABLE="class: bibleTable, width: 614"]
[TR]
[TD] Luk 24:45
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[TD]Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
[/TD]
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They had to have the Holy Spirit for that to happen.
Then after this
Jesus told them in Luke
And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high."
 they had the Holy Spirit they were saved, what were they waiting for? why did they need power the had the Holy Spirit.

"
 
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samuel23

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#172
Dec 2, 2016
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#172
Hi CSI: I write the things I have found by experience and study so it is NOT MY OPINION. I would appreciate it if you dropped the condescending attitude. Everything I said according to you was "far from the truth"...that sounds very far from the truth to me. I knew what you are explaining to me close to 40 years ago, I have even said those things to other people. I have went through all the Pentecostal stuff and came out the other side. I did not give up on Pentecostalism easily...I WANTED to believe that it was true. It took the Lord a long time to get me to really look at Pentecostalism because like you I wanted to believe it to be true. The things I wrote in my post are true.
 
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DavidA7

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#173
#173
Hello I'm new, I just wanted to share my experience. I grew up Christian all my life, I never swore nor acted bad. I never listened to worldly music. But, I had mostly non Christian friends, I went to church once a week, I hardly ever read the Bible and prayed, and I thought I was saved and "different" than everyone else. It wasn't until about a year and a half ago that I was transformed by a powerful experience. I set out to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit, it took two weeks of intense seeking and prayer and all of the sudden, tongues broke out and I felt the spirit of God and living water rushing out of my spirit. The result: a completely new creation. "You shall receive power..." was a true statement. I was able to overcome sin, temptation, with the power of the Holy Spirit, something I wasn't able to do before. Not only that, during a prayer meeting with several others I felt fire around my hands and my hands were burning hot and I prayed over someone with a gash in their foot and they were healed instantly. I distinctly remember the cob webs, if you will, of my mind be dusted away and my eyes were opened to so much more in a split second. I can now hear Gods voice when he speaks to me and discern things spiritually that otherwise I wouldn't have been aware of. And most importantly, I can see that my salvation isn't a plan, it's a path. I wasn't saved because I said one prayer when I was 8. I'm saved by the imputation and impartation of righteousness as I grow in the light given to me by the Holy Spirit, and I'm so grateful Jesus came to me and changed me!
 
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samuel23

Banned
#174
Dec 2, 2016
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#174
I don't want to rain on your parade, I do not know if what you say is true but for the sake of the discussion I will assume that it is true. Just a few questions. You can grow up in a Christian home and Christian atmosphere but no one grows up a Christian, at some point in our life we commit to God and accept Christ as Savior and THEN we become a Christian. You never described when you were actually saved yet you spent 2 weeks seeking the baptism of the Spirit. An unsaved person should never seek the baptism of the spirit for two weeks, an unsaved person should make a commitment to God and call upon Jesus to save you, THEN you will receive the Holy Spirit. This happens in a moment of time, not two weeks. Your story does not really line up with the bible. Maybe you left out some parts. Were you really saved when you were seeking the baptism of the spirit?
 
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DavidA7

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#175
#175
That's a good question, well I meant to say I grew up in a Christian home and since a young person I dedicated my life to Christ. So yes I could say I was saved in the sense that I was walking in all the light that I had. But later on I don't see how I could have been until I truly came to the recognition of my needs that I had stopped loving God with all my heart, which is one of the greatest commandments. If you love someone you want to always be with them, and I didn't truly love God before that. Even though I was a "good" person morally, I can't say I would do anything for him. Until now.
 
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DavidA7

Guest
#176
#176
Salvation isn't punctual, it's an ongoing walk. You can be saved and stay saved as long as you walk in righteousness but is not a one and done thing. And I never said I got the Holy Spirit in the course of two weeks, it did come instantly but after two weeks of searching.
 
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samuel23

Banned
#177
Dec 2, 2016
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#177
So until this experience you never had the indwelling Holy Spirit? The reason I ask is because if you never had the Holy Spirit until your experience then you were not saved until the experience. Salvation is something that happens in a moment of time, you are lost and on your way to hell, you commit to God and accept Christ as Savior and you are saved and on your way to Heaven, it is a gift from God. Now after you are saved you must walk in your faith in order to maintain your position.
 
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DavidA7

Guest
#178
#178
Amen Samuel! But you see, if we read in Romans 8 I believe it talks about imputation vs impartation, the promise of the spirit had to be imputed to Abraham because of his faith before they had even had the Holy Spirit back then, honestly I wouldn't doubt if I wasn't saved before, even though I had prayed the sinners prayer and I was a so called good Christian, because I didn't have the Holy Spirit of true love for God. Even though I thought I loved him I never really did until he opened my eyes.
 
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samuel23

Banned
#179
Dec 2, 2016
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#179
OK, but I don't quite understand why it took two weeks.
 
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DavidA7

Guest
#180
#180
Well Jesus said himself, to those who believe, [as the scriptures have said], out of their hearts shall flow rivers of living water. He was talking about the promise of the Holy Spirit. It took me two weeks because my heart wasn't totally surrendered to him, i had a lot of fears that I wouldn't surrender to him but as soon as I did I received it.
 
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