Trump’s Order Blocks Immigrants at Airports

[maxwel]

Actually, I posted that I have a law degree (not a lawyer) and that I have published a few law articles, mostly on taxation. Those are facts whether tommy chooses to believe it or not. Thus, the flattering term "jurist" is accurate.

Thank you for clearing this us.

On my scale of "trustworthiness", people with law degrees generally land at the bottom.



There are reasons most people feel this way.
In law school, professors don't actually discuss the moral issues of RIGHT & WRONG, or FAIRNESS, or even DECENCY...
it's merely about how to WIN.

In law school, even LYING is just considered another "tool in your toolbox" which helps you to win.

I think these principles undergird most of your posts.

 

[Tommy379]

Thank you for clearing this us.

On my scale of "trustworthiness", people with law degrees generally land at the bottom.



There are reasons most people feel this way.
In law school, professors don't actually discuss the moral issues of RIGHT & WRONG, or FAIRNESS, or even DECENCY...
it's merely about how to WIN.

In law school, even LYING is just considered another "tool in your toolbox" which helps you to win.

I think these principles undergird most of your posts.

I don't think this is true. I don't think most lawyers lie. I think most clients lie to their lawyer. I think TV and movies have given lawyers a bad reputation.

I had a judge, years ago, tell me a joke. I didn't know it was a joke when he first started this question he asked: "why aren't the lawyers sworn in at court?" I thought for a second and said "they aren't giving testimony." He said "No.......... it's because they'd all go to prison for perjury."

He also told me other lawyer jokes that can't be repeated here.

 

[maxwel]

I don't think this is true. I don't think most lawyers lie. I think most clients lie to their lawyer. I think TV and movies have given lawyers a bad reputation.

I had a judge, years ago, tell me a joke. I didn't know it was a joke when he first started this question he asked: "why aren't the lawyers sworn in at court?" I thought for a second and said "they aren't giving testimony." He said "No.......... it's because they'd all go to prison for perjury."

He also told me other lawyer jokes that can't be repeated here.

Sorry, but lawyers ARE taught to lie in law school.

That is just verifiable fact.





That does not mean all lawyers lie.
But it DOES mean they are taught that lying is ok.
This is the thinking which permeates the training of the profession.
But each man, of course, must choose how to conduct himself.

 

[Tommy379]

Sorry, but lawyers ARE taught to lie in law school.

That is just verifiable fact.





That does not mean all lawyers lie.
But it DOES mean they are taught that lying is ok.

My sister graduated law school and I've talked to her about it before, she says it's not true. I've read all her textbooks, notes, and lectures. I haven't seen anything to encourage deception.

 

[maxwel]

My sister graduated law school and I've talked to her about it before, she says it's not true. I've read all her textbooks, notes, and lectures. I haven't seen anything to encourage deception.

Many of my friends have experienced the exact opposite.

 

[renewed_hope]

On my scale of "trustworthiness", people with law degrees generally land at the bottom..

No, the ones that should land on the bottom of that list are salesmen, I should know

 

[maxwel]

Lawyers Taught to Lie?


Here is an article from a very famous attorney, John W. Cooley, who is also an adjunct professor at Northwestern University School of Law.

DECEPTION IS ACCEPTABLE ... it's all just a matter of degree.



The following article is a deep discussion of the ACCEPTABLE LIMITS OF DECEPTION!

Let's say that again.
This is an entire article discussing the ACCEPTABLE LIMITS OF DECEPTION... because DECEPTION IS ACCEPTABLE... it's just a matter of degree.


This article is a SEQUEL to an article John Cooley wrote for LOYOLA UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO LAW REVIEW.
(This is a an official, sanctioned, scholarly publication of Loyola University regarding matters of law.)


"Defining The Ethical Limits Of Acceptable Deception In Mediation"
Defining The Ethical Limits Of Acceptable Deception In Mediation

John W. Cooley:
John W. Cooley is a former United States Magistrate, Assistant United States Attorney, Senior Staff Attorney for the United States Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit, and a litigation partner in a Chicago law firm. He is a past Chair of the Mediation Committee of the ABA Section of Dispute Resolution. He is a Fellow of the American Bar Foundation, the International Academy of Mediators, and the Chartered Institute of Arbitrators, London, England. In private practice in the Chicago area, he is a mediator and arbitrator on the ADR panel of JAMS (The Resolution Experts®). He has served as a Special Master for federal judges and as an arbitrator and mediator in a wide variety of complex, multi-million dollar commercial disputes, both domestic and international. He is an Adjunct Professor at Northwestern University School of Law where he teaches a course on negotiation and mediation.


I'm sure I could find dozens of similar articles, along with first hand accounts, of deception being taught as a useful practice by law schools and law professors.

Is this really necessary?

 

[Susanna]

Deception is acceptable with a lot of professions. Scientists, economy, politicians, intelligence, police, military etc etc...where it's people, it is deception.

 

[Willie-T]

Sorry, but lawyers ARE taught to lie in law school.

That is just verifiable fact.





That does not mean all lawyers lie.
But it DOES mean they are taught that lying is ok.
This is the thinking which permeates the training of the profession.
But each man, of course, must choose how to conduct himself.

Lawyers are not taught to lie.
They are taught how to tell a story two or three different ways to keep from being caught lying about it.
They are also taught the art of misleading and misconception, and smiling politely if you come to a conclusion that makes their client look better.

 

[Willie-T]

Deception is acceptable with a lot of professions. Scientists, economy, politicians, intelligence, police, military etc etc...where it's people, it is deception.

It's one of Jethro Gibbs' rules: People lie.

 

[Susanna]

It's one of Jethro Gibbs' rules: People lie.

Ya think?!

 

[Tommy379]

Don't lie, rather exercise your right to not speak.

 

[Susanna]

People who is exercising that right while insisting on the best lawyer within the state I tend to belive actually has something to hide.

 

[renewed_hope]

Lawyers are not taught to lie.
They are taught how to tell a story two or three different ways to keep from being caught lying about it.
They are also taught the art of misleading and misconception, and smiling politely if you come to a conclusion that makes their client look better.

Learning how to tell a story multiple different ways to keep one from getting caught is considered lying in my dictionary

 

[maxwel]

Lawyers are not taught to lie.
They are taught how to tell a story two or three different ways to keep from being caught lying about it.
They are also taught the art of misleading and misconception, and smiling politely if you come to a conclusion that makes their client look better.

Well, in good lawyer fashion, we're really just talking about semantics aren't we?

Is there a difference between "lying" and "deception"?

Well, technically yes... but ethically... probably not.

Lawyers are certainly, as shown from the article I posted above, taught to deal with various levels of deception.



Maybe instead of using the word "lie", we should just use the word "deception."

I don't know if there's a moral distinction, but it certainly parses out differently for the sake of argument.

 

[Susanna]

Learning how to tell a story multiple different ways to keep one from getting caught is considered lying in my dictionary

If you're telling a story multiple different ways inside the interrogation room, I'd say you are well on your way to getting into trouble.

 

[Willie-T]

Learning how to tell a story multiple different ways to keep one from getting caught is considered lying in my dictionary

If you're telling a story multiple different ways inside the interrogation room, I'd say you are well on your way to getting into trouble.

But not in the protected world lawyers have built for themselves. And remember that all judges were also lawyers first.

 

[JosephsDreams]

Deception is acceptable with a lot of professions. Scientists, economy, politicians, intelligence, police, military etc etc...where it's people, it is deception.

Well it seems with Trump we may have the most transparent president in the last hundred years.

 

[Utah]

This is funny - you whine about the race card and then you talk about the racist tendencies of everyone.

That's not really what she said but thanks for qualifying her statements by saying that racism ("genetic predispositions") was wrong.

Now it makes sense that the USA can't get enough American engineering graduates that they have to import even their own law enforcement.

Exactly. No one here is trying to hide anything regarding racial issues in America. That's exactly what Magenta is saying; had obama had more distinct features from his African roots, he would not have been elected.

Its funny though to see your venomous hatred against mainstream America on full display while you're screaming about racism. Such a self righteous hypocrite.

Oh, and as far as asking Black folks their views regarding Magenta's statement, my friends have no problem with it. Facts are facts was their response.

 

[Utah]

Given that we were discussing genetic predispositions, I was merely wondering in the same vein, if maybe the "white American" gene pool can't produce enough smart people to build and operate their own computer networks?

I was going to earn my chemical engineering degree but was called in to the ministry. Your self righteous racism is adorable. What else would you like to discuss.