Tongues???

[trofimus]

For all that it may be, one might compare it to Pharaoh's sorcerers and their rods and Aaron's rod turning into snakes. Aaron's rod that turned into a snake swallowed their snakes. While there may yet be counterfeits, there then is the reality. God still heals today and is greater than any deception one might attempt to use to discredit Him. His glory shines and if you'd only believe you'd see it and be amazed.

God heals today.

God does not take your money for that.
God will not fell you down in a hypnotic state.
God will not be in cheap tricks like the leg prolonging.
God will not play games like "there is somebody called... J..Jerry...James!"
God will not play games like "there are few who can donate 200$ and one who can donate 2000$ tonight!"
God will not play games like "cast away your pills, because its unbelief to take them. And when you cast them away, you will die, because your faith was too small, still".

Etc.

God is not the same thing as the healing shows or the charismatic movement.

 

[shittim]

Worship draws Him near, sometimes people receive healing based on their faith, not on the performance of a leader.
He is very clear He is the same, yesterday, today, forever. Before the Exodus from Egypt scripture tells us there
were no lame for He healed them all.
The book of Acts is normal Christianity, we lost it for awhile, but He wants us to walk in it and know Him, not just know about Him. In Revelation some will hear "get out from my presence, I never knew you". Knowing Him is essential, not just knowing about Him.

 

[presidente]

the spirit guides you when you pray in your own language.
it is a matter of comparing the 2, if one is no different than the other than whats the point?
how can you say "advantage and usefulness of tongues" when every benefit of them mentioned so far can be accomplished with praying in our own language?
are you seeing yet how they make no sense?

It sounds like you have a problem with Paul and the Bible. Paul said he would pray with the Spirit and with the understanding. So if Paul saw benefit in doing both, and wrote about it in the Bible, why have a problem with it? If he didn't specify what the benefit is to doing both, and why he would do so, and other posters can exactly specify what the benefit of speaking in tongues instead of just in English, that doesn't mean there isn't one.

 

[plainguy]

The book of Acts is normal Christianity, we lost it for awhile,

Got that right. 1900 years is a looong time.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

how do you know your communicating with Him when you dont know what you are even saying?

Because God says we are: For he that speaks in an tongue speaks not unto men, but unto God . . . .

 

[presidente]

God will not fell you down in a hypnotic state.

Peter and Paul went into trances in Acts. In the garden, then Jesus said, "I AM" the troops fell down.

God will not be in cheap tricks like the leg prolonging.

Is it wrong to pray for someone with a short leg. It's not the most impressive healing, since you could pull shoes or slide legs or pull a leg or something like that. But why would it be wrong to pray for a short or long leg? And if it gets healed, should we label it a trick?

God will not play games like "there is somebody called... J..Jerry...James!"

Who do you have in mind who does that?

God will not play games like "there are few who can donate 200$ and one who can donate 2000$ tonight!"

Seems to be common with some 'prosperity' folks. Belief in healing extends a lot further than the 'prosperity gospel' movement.

God will not play games like "cast away your pills, because its unbelief to take them. And when you cast them away, you will die, because your faith was too small, still".

Etc.

God is not the same thing as the healing shows or the charismatic movement.

Who in the Charismatic movement tells people to throw away their pills? Even Benny Hinn says not to do stuff like that, and says to go get checked out at the doctor. There are some individuals who do that. I knew one guy, a young guy at the time, who had back problems and a drug and drinking problem, and a heavy prescription. He had repented, and then he was praying about his back. He did that. He got rid of his pills. I think he threw them in the trash. After he did that, he said his back pain stopped. But preachers who pray for healing, in my experience, don't generally tell people to through their pills away.

They may have done that more in the faith-cure movement, among some of the Holiness churches, and in certain types of churches in the early Pentecostal movement. The Pentecostal Holiness churches used to be against going to doctors. The Congregational Holiness split off from it partly over believing it was okay to go to doctors. Of course, when the faith cure movement was going on and even into the early Pentecostal movement, going to a doctor was taking your life in your hands. In the 1800's, doctors finally stopped delivering babies and treating wounds with bacteria on their hands after they touched the last patient. But even in the early 1900's, they give out cocaine and opium based products, which you could also buy in all kinds of tonics back then.

Nowadays, Pentecostal Holiness people will go to the doctor. And in the Pentecostal and Charismatic movements, not telling people to throw out their meds is the normal stance on the issue. The unbeliever in the video who convinced the scuba instructor to do false prophecy and fake healings believed a stereotype.

 

[trofimus]

Peter and Paul went into trances in Acts. In the garden, then Jesus said, "I AM" the troops fell down.



Is it wrong to pray for someone with a short leg. It's not the most impressive healing, since you could pull shoes or slide legs or pull a leg or something like that. But why would it be wrong to pray for a short or long leg? And if it gets healed, should we label it a trick?



Who do you have in mind who does that?



Seems to be common with some 'prosperity' folks. Belief in healing extends a lot further than the 'prosperity gospel' movement.


Who in the Charismatic movement tells people to throw away their pills? Even Benny Hinn says not to do stuff like that, and says to go get checked out at the doctor. There are some individuals who do that. I knew one guy, a young guy at the time, who had back problems and a drug and drinking problem, and a heavy prescription. He had repented, and then he was praying about his back. He did that. He got rid of his pills. I think he threw them in the trash. After he did that, he said his back pain stopped. But preachers who pray for healing, in my experience, don't generally tell people to through their pills away.

They may have done that more in the faith-cure movement, among some of the Holiness churches, and in certain types of churches in the early Pentecostal movement. The Pentecostal Holiness churches used to be against going to doctors. The Congregational Holiness split off from it partly over believing it was okay to go to doctors. Of course, when the faith cure movement was going on and even into the early Pentecostal movement, going to a doctor was taking your life in your hands. In the 1800's, doctors finally stopped delivering babies and treating wounds with bacteria on their hands after they touched the last patient. But even in the early 1900's, they give out cocaine and opium based products, which you could also buy in all kinds of tonics back then.

Nowadays, Pentecostal Holiness people will go to the doctor. And in the Pentecostal and Charismatic movements, not telling people to throw out their meds is the normal stance on the issue. The unbeliever in the video who convinced the scuba instructor to do false prophecy and fake healings believed a stereotype.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuP5uOI7Xwc

 

[jaybird88]

The apostle Paul said he sang in the Spirit and prayed in the Spirit. So thats both worship and fellowship. Those terms given the context of the verses they reside is in reference to tongues. You're asking the difference and I am telling you that you aren't controlling what you're saying but God is. He is giving the utterance. I am sure you are not so arrogant as to say you can pray just as perfectly for your life and well-being as God, Himself?

the power of thew Most High is greater than us, i never said different. i was speaking of the angel language not the Spirit.

 

[samuel23]

Jesus is the same today as in the NT, so God does heal today. Here is the situation as I see it. Some folks around 1906 wanted to get back to the manifestations that they read about in the bible, and in their zeal they yielded there selves to all kinds of spirits not of God, however they called the manifestations the work of God's Spirit even though an honest look at the bible would prove otherwise. Mixed in with this mess were a few Christians who really were being used by God, however it seems that most folks were not able to discern the real move of God from those who were fake...so much of what goes on today as a move of God is fake.

 

[jaybird88]

It sounds like you have a problem with Paul and the Bible. Paul said he would pray with the Spirit and with the understanding. So if Paul saw benefit in doing both, and wrote about it in the Bible, why have a problem with it? If he didn't specify what the benefit is to doing both, and why he would do so, and other posters can exactly specify what the benefit of speaking in tongues instead of just in English, that doesn't mean there isn't one.

i have no problems with Paul, i have issues with people taking words of paul and twisting them into something that i dont think he meant, can not be found anywhere else in the bible and no where else in any theology writing of the time. edit - nowhere in Judeo / Christian writing, we do find it in babylonian / greek teaching.

 

[shittim]

The Creator we will all stand before choosing to heal one of His Children that He sent His only Begotten Son to live a sinless life for and die on the cross for is not a "cheap trick".
If and when you hold the feet of a brother in Christ in your hands and pray and watch his leg being lengthened without any movement on his part, after having born witness to this specific healing on other occasions you will not doubt.
If we have doubt as some in this thread have posted, we may never bear witness to His working this way, Jesus Himself in some towns could do healing except a few "because of their unbelief".

 

[jaybird88]

Because God says we are: For he that speaks in an tongue speaks not unto men, but unto God . . . .

that passage could be about a human language. no angel language mentioned there.

so the only way to confirm this is to do an over write in the holy scriptures, replacing tongues with angel tongues when its not there?

 

[zone]

Thank you for asking these questions and helping me grow in patience and understanding. I go back to my point that God saw it fit, the gift of tongues, to place it amongst the nine gifts of the Spirit. If God saw the gift as a necessity to edify both the believer and fellow brethren who are we to disagree because we lack understanding? You ought to at least acknowledge that truth. God saw it fit to equip His saints with this gift thereby qualifying it as useful and beneficial.

Whether I or you can understand or explain its benefits does not negate the fact that God has seen it as beneficial and has equipped His children with it. I just want to make that clear. Our ignorance does not supersede God's providence, and wisdom in distributing the gift of tongues and interpretation for the edification of both oneself and others.

Now, I can attempt to explain the benefits, as I have, but it doesn't seem to me you're all too interested in the benefits as you are disqualifying the gift. If I am wrong on that, forgive me. Lets say that the benefits of tongues can simply be equaled in regular prayer. So what? Then let me pray in tongues ("forbid not to speak with tongues") and let you speak in your native tongue. You have no right, or foundation in scripture to tell me to stop or that I am out of line to be operating in a gift the Lord has granted. The fact that He has granted it reveals its usefulness, in fact it qualifies it (regardless of our ignorance to its edification).

So this isn't a matter of agreeing to disagree. This is a matter of letting me walk as scripture gives me the right to and for you to do as well. If you have no desire to speak in tongues, then don't. I do, and have been equipped to do such. Lets be in unity within the liberty we share.

this is just extraordinarily gullible, at best.

 

[VCO]

God heals today.

God does not take your money for that.
God will not fell you down in a hypnotic state.
God will not be in cheap tricks like the leg prolonging.
God will not play games like "there is somebody called... J..Jerry...James!"
God will not play games like "there are few who can donate 200$ and one who can donate 2000$ tonight!"
God will not play games like "cast away your pills, because its unbelief to take them. And when you cast them away, you will die, because your faith was too small, still".

Etc.

God is not the same thing as the healing shows or the charismatic movement.

You forgot one:

GOD's Ministers will not tell their followers, "JESUS told me He was going to take me home, if you all don't donate 8 million dollars to my Ministry."

This video is seven years old.

[video=youtube;Jtk2hQrPO9s]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jtk2hQrPO9s[/video]


Jude 1:11 (HCSB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Woe to them! For they have traveled in the way of Cain,
{ Self styed worship, contrary to GOD's style of worship. }
have abandoned themselves to the error of Balaam for profit,
{ Preach to make themselves RICH. }
and have perished in Korah’s rebellion.
{ Mix popular pagan practices in with genuine worship of GOD. }


Deuteronomy 18:22 (ESV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him. { respectful honor }

 

[garee]

that passage could be about a human language. no angel language mentioned there.

so the only way to confirm this is to do an over write in the holy scriptures, replacing tongues with angel tongues when its not there?

It is speaking of God's language, prophecy. When the Holy Spirit put his words in the mouth of Peter it was attributed unto God not Peter.

Prophecy to include the manner of tongues is after no man. The gift is by Christ, to Christ, from Christ as the glory of it. There are no outward sign or healing that are attributed the hands of men. as an retinal witness they are children of God .

Glorying in the flesh that profits for nothing is glorying in the flesh.It only proves someone is glorying in the flesh

Rom 11:35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
Rom 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

 

[presidente]

i have no problems with Paul, i have issues with people taking words of paul and twisting them into something that i dont think he meant, can not be found anywhere else in the bible and no where else in any theology writing of the time. edit - nowhere in Judeo / Christian writing, we do find it in babylonian / greek teaching.

I think a lot of people try to make speaking in tongues more central to the Christian faith than it should be, and come up with theories about what is so great about it, stretching prooftexts to make a point. There is a verse in Romans 8 that doesn't seem to fit tongues at all, since tongues can be utterred.

But as far as tongues edifying is concerned, Paul lets us know that they do edify the speaker. In context, based on parallelism, this is a good kind of edifying. Paul would that they speak with tongues, but rather that they prophecy. He who speaks in tongues edifies himself. He who prophecies edifies the church. Paul wanted them to speak in tongues (edify themselves), but would rather have them prophesy (edify the church.) Paul contrasts something good with something better.

This shows us that tongues edify the speaker and that this is a good thing.

Later Paul says if he prays in a tongue, his spirit prays and his understanding is unfruitful. He says he will pray with the spirit and with the understanding.

Why would Paul pray in a tongue? Apparently, he saw some benefit to it in addition to praying with his understanding.

That is a reasonable argument, right? Can you see that all in the passage?

 

[garee]

I did explain that. Holy Spirit guiding your prayers. This means that you are praying with the advantage of God's sovereignty and His divine intervention. He guides your spirit to pray things you have no idea you should be praying about. In regular prayer without tongues one is praying only of what they do know, and even then that is so very small in comparison to God's wealth of knowledge and omniscience.

If a person does not offer words that they themselves are acquainted with they would be as vain repetitions. We are commanded to not like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

We pray in a manner that we both might understand . The idea of a special private prayer as a sign a person has the Holy i in a fuller way then one who does abide without the idea of this secret special prayer is not a biblical teaching.

But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.Give us this day our daily bread. Mat 6:11

Besides that, another benefit of tongues as opposed to regular prayer is a matter of trusting the Holy Spirit. You must have an understanding that He has your best interest in mind, in order for you to just relinquish your prayers to His discretion.

The idea that one would have to speak in a language with no meaning to themselves does not mean they are trusting the Holy Spirit, but does mean they are trusting their owns selves after their earthly experiences.

You are surrendering to God's will in a way, and He is orchestrating things on your behalf (including for others). So again, in this respect you submit to God's sovereignty.

You seem to be confusing God's sovereignty with speaking in a language that has no meaning.

I don't think its a matter of comparing the two, praying in the Spirit as opposed to praying with understanding. The apostle Paul endorsed both. As we should. To compare is irrelevant but to dismiss the advantage and usefulness of tongues is to dismiss the fact that God in His wisdom saw the gift as something He felt the body of Christ needed in order to equip them.

If God saw it as something He desired to gift us with, it is clear there is edification and usefulness involved.

Dismissing the idea that we could pray in a language which we cannot understand as some sort of hidden wisdom comparing the two, praying in the Spirit as opposed to praying with understanding, they remain opposed. We pray with an understand that gives us His understanding. When we pray in the Spirit we are asking Him for His understanding.

 

[garee]

But as far as tongues edifying is concerned, Paul lets us know that they do edify the speaker. In context, based on parallelism, this is a good kind of edifying. Paul would that they speak with tongues, but rather that they prophecy. He who speaks in tongues edifies himself. He who prophecies edifies the church. Paul wanted them to speak in tongues (edify themselves), but would rather have them prophesy (edify the church.) Paul contrasts something good with something better.

Parallelism?

It is not exalting self edification in anyway.Paul contrasts something good with something that has no understanding to offer. It does not say its good to edify one self as in self righteousness but better to edify the church.

Speaking in tongues edifies Christ ,He edifies the whole church.

 

[Billyd]

You must've skipped page 12, I have two posts describing such benefits.

That may answer the question to you, but they really don't answer the question. When I'm closest to God, I hear his voice in the redneck country English that I routinely speak. We benefit more from a real honest heart to heart conversation in our native tongue.

Don't take me wrong. I believe in tongues, and I don't believe that they have ceased. I also believe that they are the most abused gift of the spirit.

 

[kaylagrl]

The problem with tongues is that it is both misunderstood and misused. Holiness Pentecostals teach that you can't be saved unless you speak in tongues with is false doctrine. Others feel spiritually superior because they speak in tongues,which is a misuse of the gift. Some churches dont follow the NT and order,also a misuse of tongues. But none of this means that tongues is not real.

Ive told this story before. Back when I was in ministry we had a Baptist friend who played guitar travel with us for a few years. We traveled in all churches,all denominations. Our friend was totally against speaking in tongues,didn't believe in it at all. One Sunday morning we were at a church and a lady spoke in tongues and then there was an interpretation.After the service we were worried about our Baptist friend and began to explain tongues to him.He stopped us and said that he had received the interpretation before it had been given. He never questioned tongues again and said from then on that he believed in tongues.I dont know if ever spoke himself but I know it changed his mind. Tongues is real,there is no doubt about it.