Tongues???

[VCO]

VCO how did you feel watching the video?
I felt very disturbed.

I agree, and NONE of it felt like anyone was worshiping GOD. I noticed the jumping to hype up their feeling right away. I think all of us Born Again Christians would get that same disturbing sense of "this is not right".


James 4:4 (ESV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.

1 Peter 1:14-15 (NRSV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Like obedient children, do not be conformed to the desires that you formerly had in ignorance.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Instead, as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct;

Romans 12:2 (ESV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

Jude 1:11 (ASV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Woe unto them! For they went in the way of Cain, and ran riotously in the error of Balaam for hire, and perished in the gainsaying of Korah.

The Way of Cain was self styled worship.

The Error of Balaam was preaching to make himself rich.

The gainsaying of Korah was mixing paganism with God's True Worship, like Christian Science does.

 

[VCO]

No, I am curious what was the turning point for you is all. I dont need a break down of it all, just the climax.

For me it was really reading my Bible and comparing it other Scriptures on the same topic said, instead of just getting caught up any longer in what I was seeing going on in the Charismatic Movement.

 

[Billyd]

It's time for a break, and Billy's humble opinion. This is a description of what the scriptures, in total, say, is speaking in tongues.

There are 7097 living languages today Ethnologue God speaks each of them. When he needs to get a message to one of the speakers of one of these languages, he will, if you are willing, use you.

 

[samuel23]

Ok, what do I know about tongues? There is so much misinformation, those who believe in tongues are called Pentecostal because of the tongue speaking that went on, on the day of Pentecost in the NT. This is totally misleading because the believers on the day of Pentecost in the NT, spoke in KNOWN languages, while the Pentecostal movement that started around 1906 DID NOT speak in any known language(though at the time they thought they did). So first and foremost, the movement called the Pentecostal movement is not in any way a reproduction of what happened on the day of Pentecost in the NT. Calling the movement Pentecostal is misleading. The examples the Pentecostals use as examples for what they are doing is also misleading, because the evidence shows that with the house of Cornelius and the Samarians, both spoke in known languages. So what are the tongues people doing? In my opinion a great number of them are just making noise, on the other hand, in the established NT church, there was such a thing as a tongue that was not any language known to man and was a way to speak to God from the spirit of a person without the mind knowing what is being said. So the unknown tongue(unknown to the human mind) is scriptural, though it is my opinion that lots of folks are pretending to have this gift when they do not.

 

[presidente]

This is totally misleading because the believers on the day of Pentecost in the NT, spoke in KNOWN languages, while the Pentecostal movement that started around 1906 DID NOT speak in any known language

First of all, why do you say this? What do you base this on? I've come across three references to people coming into the Azusa Street in that international city of Los Angels, and hearing their on native languages spoken 'in tongues.' One attendee said that was what drew so many people to the revival.

But as far as that goes, in I Corinthians 14, Paul says that if any man speaks in tongues 'no man understandeth him'. He encouraged tongues to be interpreted...which happened through a gift of the Spirit as we see in chapter 12... so that others could be edified.

 

[presidente]

but I (and most cessationists) would think it's decent to warn ppl that engaging in this activity is blasphemy.
so we're both in a quandary I reckon.

No, we aren't, because the scripture teaches one activity is allowed and condemns the other. Paul says, 'Covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.'

But Jesus said, 'And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.'

 

[stonesoffire]

I don't think I'll ever understand why anyone would not want to see Holy Spirit active in our lives and doing exactly what Jesus said He would. The helper! The very Spirit of God sent into flesh!

 

[presidente]

That video is more PROOF that what is going on in the CHARISMATIC MOVEMENT; is NOT OF GOD, and more proof that it is only a copy of the PAGAN TONGUES like that of the worship of APOLLO, one of the Dionysian Mystery Religions.

I don't have time to watch the video all the way through. I wanted to point out the lack of logic in the sentence above. Proof about the whole 'Charismatic movement.' I know that if I posted that video on a certain Pentecostal forum, there would be comments about some of the things they did being weird. These folks might not even consider themselves 'Charismatic', and there are probably some scholars who study such things who would put it in a different category. I'm just guessing.

I've heard a lot of prophecies and speaking in tongues and interpretation of tongues in church. I grew up in a church where there were probably a couple of tongues and interpretations every week. Someone would stand and give the tongue without jerking around or acting weird, and someone else would interpret without jerking around or acting weird. We didn't have a culture of 'acting funky' in the church. I remember one prophecy or interpretation answered a question I'd just thought to myself, which really got my attention. It's even more interesting when that happens when someone is prophesying over you individually.

And zone,

I was in a Bible study when the 'Toronto Blessing' movement happened. It seemed like the operation of the gifts of the Spirit that had been going on pretty much dried up when people came back from Toronto shaking and saying 'more'. I moved overseas not long after that. I was invited to a meeting with a group from church overseas where a couple of men who were promoting the 'Toronto Blessing' were up there jerking and acting weird, telling testimonies about the weirdness, as if trying to convince the audience to try to start jerking. The audience didn't follow their lead, and I don't think it ever took off in that country.

There are a lot of things the Toronto movement were into that you can't really find any scripture at all to support. I'm not going to say those people up there weren't Christians or that some people didn't experience some form of deliverance, etc or whatever when they went to the meeting. I never went to Toronto. Where I was at, from my perspective, it got weird, and I was glad to get away from the weirdness. But I did not reject the Biblical gifts of the Spirit. You've gone to the extreme of condemning things that are taught and encouraged in scripture.

 

[presidente]

I already addressed ALL that several times.
so unless you have new questions

You haven't shown one verse of scripture that indicates that the gift of the working of miracles or gifts of healing will cease. I asked you for one, and you quoted a passage from I Corinthians 13 that does not mention either of these gifts.

I don't recall your responding to my posts. Do you actually see the words 'miracles' or 'healing' in I Corinthians 13, in your own perception of reality. They aren't there in mine, dare I say 'ours.'

Your interpretation of I Corinthians 13, one that arrives on the scene in the 1700s, is flimsy. Asserting that your interpretation extends to other gifts is just an assertion, not the teaching of scripture.

I suspect you realize this and the post I'm responding to is you dodging the question.

The idea that miracles were given to confirm the word until some point in time is an assertion, not the teaching of scripture. The scripture teaches that the Spirit gives gifts like tongues, prophecy, the working of miracles, and healing, as He wills.

 

[stonesoffire]

Well, here is a miracle. This woman was well known, a Pastors wife. Delia Knox. I've posted this before on other forums. It cannot be refuted, and it's a Pentecostal meeting...formerly Brownsville Revival.

[video]https://youtu.be/oYjM4xrw1ds[/video]

 

[samuel23]

OK, I believe that the gifts of the Spirit are still in effect, for so says the bible. I do not believe that this modern(1906) movement that is called Pentecostal is of God, I believe there are a lot of Christians in that movement, but I do not believe the movement itself is of God. To any Christian who is in the Pentecostal movement I would say, beware, by being in that movement you open yourself up to spiritual deception. I was in the Pentecostal, charismatic movement for many years and have studied all aspects of it. We speak about the lying liberal media, Pentecostalism is full of false stories such as the one that people on Azusa street spoke in known languages that they never learned. There is the real history of Azusa street and there is the false Pentecostal history of Azusa. The problem then and now with Pentecostalism is thus...people in the movement attribute many manifestations to the Spirit of God when the bible DOES NOT attribute such thing to the Spirit of God. What happened on Azusa street was about as far from Godly manifestations as you can get. The founder of the movement went to Azusa and pronounced what he saw as the work of the devil...does the Pentecostal version teach that??

 

[presidente]

Well, here is a miracle. This woman was well known, a Pastors wife. Delia Knox. I've posted this before on other forums. It cannot be refuted, and it's a Pentecostal meeting...formerly Brownsville Revival.

[video]https://youtu.be/oYjM4xrw1ds[/video]

I've seen videos about Delia Knox. She was kind of a bit of a public figure as the wife of a pastor of a large church and as a gospel singer before her healing. I found an old public interest piece about her injury and how she sang gospel music.

Of course, critics will point out it wasn't a totally instantaneous healing. Of course, neither was the healing of one of the blind men Jesus laid hands on, who saw men like trees walking at first.

 

[presidente]

OK, I believe that the gifts of the Spirit are still in effect, for so says the bible. I do not believe that this modern(1906) movement that is called Pentecostal is of God, I believe there are a lot of Christians in that movement, but I do not believe the movement itself is of God.

You've got a problem then. If there are Pentecostals who are genuine Christians, and you believe in the spiritual gifts, then why wouldn't you believe that some Pentecostals may have genuine gifts? I wouldn't say every claim to a gift by a Pentecostal or Charismatic is genuine. But it would seem Pentecostals and Charismatics are more likely to actually believe God to give them a gift of the Spirit than someone who doesn't believe in the gifts at all. So logically, and Biblically, how can you say that Pentecostals categorically don't have these gifts? Just to be reasonable, you'd have to conclude that some may operate in some of the gifts.

I haven't heard anyone speak in tongues in a language I knew or went somewhere, spoke in tongues, and people understood me in their language, but I've met or known four people who have had such experiences.

Pneuma review had an article about a documented case of speaking in tongues in a known language, where the information is housed, ironically, at a Lutheran seminary.

I was in the Pentecostal, charismatic movement for many years and have studied all aspects of it. We speak about the lying liberal media, Pentecostalism is full of false stories such as the one that people on Azusa street spoke in known languages that they never learned.

If you believe in gifts of the Spirit for today, and there are testimonies of people from the revival who actually experienced people coming in and identifying the languages being spoke, why would you dismiss that out of hand? It sounds like you have some sort of prejudice. Seymour mentioned a case with someone understanding Russian in his newsletter, but there are other accounts of it.

As far as Azusa street is concerned, they had a lot of issues to deal with, including spiritists coming in at one point and trying to do their thing. I don't think they developed the theological framework for it, but it seemed like they had moved toward something like the I Corinthians 14:26 'every one of you' meetings that the scriptures teach us to have, though that didn't stick with most of the movement. They dealt with spiritists by praying, and the problem went away. That may not have been the best approach. One description of a certain meeting said that the 'Holy Rollers' let out one of their meetings and the whole group came to Azusa one night. That was ironic considering a Pentecostal though 'Holy Rollers' were coming in and causing a bit of disorder or changing the style. There were differences of opinion on how 'emotional' a meeting should be even back then. And you see a lot of different styles. Some of the A/Gs are kind of 'tame' in terms of emotions, while in some of the more old timey churches from Holiness traditions in the Southeast, you hear preaching on the importance of shouting.

 

[presidente]

I was just thinking about some old Barna statistics that showed (or made a case for the idea that) Charismatics knew the Bible better than most evangelicals. (I think it was in the US.) Another showed that Pentecostals were more likely to hold to certain evangelical doctrines than other evangelicals. Assemblies of God was parsed out as its own category and if I recall correctly, outranked other Pentecostals as a group.

 

[VCO]

Well, here is a miracle. This woman was well known, a Pastors wife. Delia Knox. I've posted this before on other forums. It cannot be refuted, and it's a Pentecostal meeting...formerly Brownsville Revival.

[video]https://youtu.be/oYjM4xrw1ds[/video]

Back in the 80's Students from the Master's College near L.A., put the Faith Healer Kathryn Kuhlman to the TEST. They went to her and asked if she could heal people who had been diagnosed with a terminal disease. She said YES, and stated she had done so numerous times. So one of the students asked if she could provide them with a list of 5 people that she knew for certain that she had healed of their terminal disease at least 5 years ago, so that they could go interview those people, so that they could verify that her faith healing powers were for real. Again, she said yes, and promptly got up and went to the file cabinet, pulled out a folder, and quickly copied down 5 of the names and addresses, and handed the note to the students.

One by one the Master's College student went to interview those 5 people that Kathryn had KNOWN FOR SURE she healed of a terminal disease. ALL five of them had a temporary sense of well being after the healing, but all FIVE of them had died of their terminal disease.

If faith healers had the genuine gift of HEALING they could walk through every hospital in the land and empty every bed in those hospitals in a few minutes. Once again the Charismatics have settled for something MUCH LESS THAN AHAT THE APOSTLES DID, claiming to have the same gift of HEALING, but it in reality was only a counterfeit. One them even claimed and pleaded, "God told me, if you do not send me a million dollars, HE was going take me home." I looked at the TV, waved, and said, "Bye Oral!"

HERE IS THE REAL GIFT OF HEALING AT WORK IN THE APOSTLES:

Acts 5:14-16 (NRSV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Yet more than ever believers were added to the Lord, great numbers of both men and women,
[SUP]15 [/SUP] so that they even carried out the sick into the streets, and laid them on cots and mats, in order that Peter's shadow might fall on some of them as he came by.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] A great number of people would also gather from the towns around Jerusalem, bringing the sick and those tormented by unclean spirits, and they were all cured.

Satan's counterfeit miracles, that are used to deceive people, always fall short of GOD's genuine sign gift miracles:

Matthew 24:24 (NKJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

1 Timothy 4:1 (NKJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,

1 John 4:1 (ESV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

 

[VCO]

I don't have time to watch the video all the way through. I wanted to point out the lack of logic in the sentence above. Proof about the whole 'Charismatic movement.' I know that if I posted that video on a certain Pentecostal forum, there would be comments about some of the things they did being weird. These folks might not even consider themselves 'Charismatic', and there are probably some scholars who study such things who would put it in a different category. I'm just guessing.

I've heard a lot of prophecies and speaking in tongues and interpretation of tongues in church. I grew up in a church where there were probably a couple of tongues and interpretations every week. Someone would stand and give the tongue without jerking around or acting weird, and someone else would interpret without jerking around or acting weird. We didn't have a culture of 'acting funky' in the church. I remember one prophecy or interpretation answered a question I'd just thought to myself, which really got my attention. It's even more interesting when that happens when someone is prophesying over you individually.

And zone,

I was in a Bible study when the 'Toronto Blessing' movement happened. It seemed like the operation of the gifts of the Spirit that had been going on pretty much dried up when people came back from Toronto shaking and saying 'more'. I moved overseas not long after that. I was invited to a meeting with a group from church overseas where a couple of men who were promoting the 'Toronto Blessing' were up there jerking and acting weird, telling testimonies about the weirdness, as if trying to convince the audience to try to start jerking. The audience didn't follow their lead, and I don't think it ever took off in that country.


Ecclesiastes 1:9-10 (HCSB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done; there is nothing new under the sun.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Can one say about anything, “Look, this is new”? It has already existed in the ages before us.

 

[presidente]

VCO,

An atheist could use the same line of reasoning and say that because Kathryn Kuhlman's list of healings did not allegedly show any support, that the miracles of the apostles were false, too. It's the same type of reasoning you are using.

 

[VCO]

Back in the 80's Students from the Master's College near L.A., put the Faith Healer Kathryn Kuhlman to the TEST. They went to her and asked if she could heal people who had been diagnosed with a terminal disease. She said YES, and stated she had done so numerous times. So one of the students asked if she could provide them with a list of 5 people that she knew for certain that she had healed of their terminal disease at least 5 years ago, so that they could go interview those people, so that they could verify that her faith healing powers were for real. Again, she said yes, and promptly got up and went to the file cabinet, pulled out a folder, and quickly copied down 5 of the names and addresses, and handed the note to the students.

One by one the Master's College student went to interview those 5 people that Kathryn had KNOWN FOR SURE she healed of a terminal disease. ALL five of them had a temporary sense of well being after the healing, but all FIVE of them had died of their terminal disease.

If faith healers had the genuine gift of HEALING they could walk through every hospital in the land and empty every bed in those hospitals in a few minutes. Once again the Charismatics have settled for something MUCH LESS THAN AHAT THE APOSTLES DID, claiming to have the same gift of HEALING, but it in reality was only a counterfeit. One them even claimed and pleaded, "God told me, if you do not send me a million dollars, HE was going take me home." I looked at the TV, waved, and said, "Bye Oral!"

HERE IS THE REAL GIFT OF HEALING AT WORK IN THE APOSTLES:

Acts 5:14-16 (NRSV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Yet more than ever believers were added to the Lord, great numbers of both men and women,
[SUP]15 [/SUP] so that they even carried out the sick into the streets, and laid them on cots and mats, in order that Peter's shadow might fall on some of them as he came by.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] A great number of people would also gather from the towns around Jerusalem, bringing the sick and those tormented by unclean spirits, and they were all cured.

Satan's counterfeit miracles, that are used to deceive people, always fall short of GOD's genuine sign gift miracles:

Matthew 24:24 (NKJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

1 Timothy 4:1 (NKJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,

1 John 4:1 (ESV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

My mistake, that was back in the early 70's when they interviewed her.

 

[VCO]

VCO,

An atheist could use the same line of reasoning and say that because Kathryn Kuhlman's list of healings did not allegedly show any support, that the miracles of the apostles were false, too. It's the same type of reasoning you are using.

2 Corinthians 5:7 (NIV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] We live by faith, not by sight.

 

[VCO]

2 Corinthians 5:7 (NIV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] We live by faith, not by sight.

[video=youtube;cpz_9_KalFY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpz_9_KalFY[/video]