Tongues???

[zone]

We all reacted that way when our eyes began to open

for sure

 

[presidente]

Tell me how this works ? The following verses make it clear that prophecy, tongues and knowledge pass away or cease at some point in time .. and prior to faith, hope and love ..

Where do you get that from the passage. Please show the verses and explain. I'm going by what you bolded.

If there are tongues, they will cease. Let's say Gaius spoke in tongues. Eventually he stops. The tongues just kind of quiet down. Stephanus speaks in tongues. The tongues cease. They don't go on forever. Maybe the Corinthians, with their love of speaking in tongues, thought speaking in tongues going on a long time was a good thing, so this would be an apt description.

It doesn't say, "The gift of tongues will cease." That's an idea some cessationists read into the text. The incomplete nature of things goes away. Knowledge never ceases to exist. An individual's knowledge may. A piece of knowledge may. But knowledge becomes complete. Paul will one day knows as he is known.

Notice the word 'For' in verse 9. This ties together the thoughts in verse 8 to verse 9. The characteristics of verse 8 were characteristics of these gifts in Paul's present day. We can see this in verse 9, which says that we know in part and we prophesy in part. In Paul's time, in his setting, they knew in part and they prophesied in part as illustrated by the characteristics of knowledge and prophecy in verse 8. Verse 8 does not say that the gift of prophecy will cease, but rather whether there are prophecies, they will cease (or whatever word best describes that.) Many cessationists regularly read in the idea of 'gift of prophecy' into the verse.

[FONT=&quot]8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, [/FONT]

Look at the time words 'now' and 'then.'

[FONT=&quot]8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.[/FONT]

If Paul were making this argument in terms of the time sequencing that you suggest, wouldn't we expect the word 'then' instead of 'now' in the final verse there?

 

[presidente]

please bring ANY proof that they are underway today, and post it here.
any real proof whatsoever - newspaper headlines....tv newscasts....anything except your testimony.
I'm not about to take your word for it

It's about experience for you, not scripture. If I didn't have a single newscast or YouTube video (and there are many) and no testimony of healing, that would not prove that God stopped doing miracles through people. This is a Biblical issue. You are teaching a doctrine. You have no scripture to back it up. Show me where the Bible teaches that God will not do miracles, or that He will not do miracles through people, through a gift of the Spirit, or whatever your variation on the teaching is.

 

[zone]

president,
(sorry, I try to type president with an E but the type-checker thingee keeps making it without the E, so that's what I will do henceforth - lol)

what will you say to Miss Holly who is questioning da gifs for today (just an hypothetical case)?
can you tell her straight out that she would be missing anything whatsoever without them?

2 Timothy 3
14But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whoma you learned it 15and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17that the man of Godb may be complete, equipped for every good work.

are there any of the good works God planned for us NOT provided for in scripture?
what does paul say (arguably most gifted of all)?

 

[peacefulbeliever]

come on.
you know your thing is a house of cards.

is "knowledge" the sum total of all knowledge?
what kind of knowledge is it talking about?
please address this simply if you can

Considering that the manifestation of prophecy is being spoken of, and the manifestation of speaking in tongues is spoken of, then the conclusion would be that the manifestation of word (message) of knowledge would be what this verse is speaking of - and of course we will not need any of these manifestations once Christ returns because then we shall know even as we are known, i.e. full knowledge.

 

[zone]

It's about experience for you, not scripture. If I didn't have a single newscast or YouTube video (and there are many) and no testimony of healing, that would not prove that God stopped doing miracles through people. This is a Biblical issue. You are teaching a doctrine. You have no scripture to back it up. Show me where the Bible teaches that God will not do miracles, or that He will not do miracles through people, through a gift of the Spirit, or whatever your variation on the teaching is.

I figured as much.
all the noise and yet you have ZERO proof.
that's all for now.
bye then

 

[zone]

Considering that the manifestation of prophecy is being spoken of, and the manifestation of speaking in tongues is spoken of, then the conclusion would be that the manifestation of word (message) of knowledge would be what this verse is speaking of - and of course we will not need any of these manifestations once Christ returns because then we shall know even as we are known, i.e. full knowledge.

sorry, I'm not quite clear on this.
do you mean to say "knowledge" in that sense is one of the gifts and would cease?

 

[presidente]

So those that demand or need a sign, are like those that asked Jesus.. Fascinating

Before you get roped into Zone's way of viewing things, actually go through the references to 'sign' in the Bible. You can look up references where people asked for signs and where Jesus did signs, etc. In the old days, the way to do this was with a Strong's concordance. Nowadays, you can use BlueLetterBible online. If I recall correctly, you can look up references to Greek words using a Strong's concordance number, which is a nifty feature that you couldn't do with a Strong's Concordance.

The Bible does not teach that asking for a sign is wrong. It does show us that when a wicked and adulterous generation asked for a sign, Jesus only gave one sign, the sign of His resurrection. When the Jewish authorities came to Him early in the book of John asking for a sign for His authority to clean out the temple, he told them 'Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up', another reference to the resurrection. He even gave them a sign.

But the disciples asked for a sign, "What shall be the sign of Thy coming and of the end of the age?" He did not rebuke them. He answered their question and gave them a number of signs.

In Psalm 86:17, we read, "Give me a sign of your goodness, that my enemies may see it and be put to shame,"(NIV)

Apparently, it was okay to ask for this kind of sign.

Jesus once told a man, 'Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.' Then He did the miracle. So Jesus was willing to do signs to help people believe on certain occasions. He told Thomas to put his fingers in His hands and his hand into His side, and 'Be not faithless but believing.' But we can see in the words of Christ there that Thomas missed out on the blessing those who believe in Christ's resurrection without seeing get.

What about 'a wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign." These people requested a 'sign' after Jesus had done the 'sign' of feeding the five thousand. How could they ask for a sign? Well, Deuteronomy told the Israelites if a prophet prophesied something that did not come to pass, they were not to listen to him. The people may have been wanting to test Christ according to Deuteronomy. But Christ refused to give in to their test by giving them a sign, other than that of His own resurrection.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

sorry, I'm not quite clear on this.
do you mean to say "knowledge" in that sense is one of the gifts and would cease?

Well, according to scripture these are not "gifts", these are manifestations of one gift, i.e. the gift of holy spirit that each believer receives when they are born again. 1 Cor. 12 list them . . . 7-10.

Why would we need to speak in tongues, prophecy, or even receive a word (message) of knowledge from God when we shall know fully when Christ returns? There is no more need for we shall know even as we are known. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

 

[presidente]

how was it demonstrated for you when you believed?
what does it look like when the miracle of a sinner is translated into the Kingdom of God?
do we need miracles to believe or continue in faith?

Why do you feel like you need to see a miracle before you will believe that the Spirit gives gifts like the working of miracles to believers in the body of Christ? I find some of your comments ironic in this regard.

God is not obligated to do miracles. Jesus told one man, "Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe." Then He healed the nobleman's son, and the nobleman believed. So Jesus was willing to do miracles on certain occasions, even for people who would only believe if they saw signs.

The proconsul Sergius Paulus believed after he saw Elymas blinded. Some people don't believe until they see something. I don't know if the proconsul would have believed if he'd just heard, but in this case he believed after he saw that happen.

Thomas said he wouldn't believe that Jesus rose unless he put his fingers in the holes in His hands and his hand into Jesus' side. Look at what Jesus told him as recorded in John 20.

27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.”
28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

Thomas would have had a blessing if he'd believed before seeing the resurrected Christ. But Jesus was merciful and wanted Him to believe. God doesn't owe sinners miracles. He may choose to show mercy. And there are times it is appropriate to pray for God to do signs and wonders for the sake of those who hear the message.

Here is an apostolic example for us right here.

Acts 4
29 Now, Lord, look on their threats, and grant to Your servants that with all boldness they may speak Your word, 30 by stretching out Your hand to heal, and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Your holy Servant Jesus.”
(NKJV)

 

[presidente]

peacefulbeliever,

I Corinthians 12 uses the terms 'gifts' three times to refer to such things, also.

 

[VCO]

What I see in your posts, in regard to I Corinthians 14 is faith in commentaries that contradict the passage, instead of faith in what the Bible says.

Its not a matter of not doing research. It is a matter of being discerning about commentaries.

Paul wrote in that chapter about a genuine gift of speaking in tongues, encouraging the Corinthian believers to interpret speaking in tongues so that the church could be edified. He did not write about false tongues or encourage the Corinthian church to interpret pagan tongues so that the church could be edified.

We need to believe the Bible. As far as research goes, many of us have read secondary or primary sources about paganism in the Greco-Roman world. College students even get a bit of this if they take a Classics class. Throwing up a smoke screen of quotes from the ancient world, then insisting a passage doesn't mean what it actually says if you examine the verse in detail, but that it really refers to something having to do with your pagan sources is something that liberals, including homosexuality apologists do. It is sad when conservatives resort to the same approach to support cessationism.

It is interesting that cessationists' views contradict each other. You'll find that many cessationists who comment on I Corinthians 14 basically agree with Pentecostals as to what was going on. Many Pentecostals would agree with that brief quote you gave from J. Vernon McGee as to what was going on in Corinth, even though he was a cessationist and was against the operation of some of the gifts of the Spirit in modern times.



This is why we should believe what the Bible teaches, even if we haven't experienced something first hand for ourselves. This applies to the topic of spiritual gifts as well.




The proper approach is to test the spirits, not assume any spiritual activity is from demons. There are two extremes in erring on this issue. One is to assume all spiritual manifestations are from God without testing them. The other is to assume that all spiritual manifestations are from an evil source without testing them.

The Bible warns of false prophets. Jesus warned of false prophets like you quoted above. But he also said that He sent prophets. In fact, if you look at the previous chapter, chapter 23, Jesus said, 'Behold, I send unto you prophets, wise men, and scribes.' Acts mentions prophets in the church. I Corinthians mentions prophets in the church. Paul's co-laborer Silas was a prophet.

Paul did signs and wonders. He wrote about the manifestation of the Spirit of the working of miracles. So while he warned about false signs and wonders, his writings establish that there are true signs and wonders as well. A proper balanced approach to scripture acknowledges both true and false prophecy and true and false signs and wonders.

An extreme would be accepting all prophecies, all signs, and all wonders as true without discerning or testing. Another extreme would be to reject all prophecies, signs, and wonders as false without discerning or testing. The interpretation you are promoting on speaking in tongues is an extreme view, not the Biblical view. It is characterized by lack of discernment, not Biblical discernment.

No your interpretation of those verses is the error, as it is based on experiences and not comparing Scripture to Scripture, the Berean way. Like I said, "There is still nothing new under the sun."

 

[HisHolly]

With the Thomas scenario you just proved Zones posts.. don't be faithless

Before you get roped into Zone's way of viewing things, actually go through the references to 'sign' in the Bible. You can look up references where people asked for signs and where Jesus did signs, etc. In the old days, the way to do this was with a Strong's concordance. Nowadays, you can use BlueLetterBible online. If I recall correctly, you can look up references to Greek words using a Strong's concordance number, which is a nifty feature that you couldn't do with a Strong's Concordance.

The Bible does not teach that asking for a sign is wrong. It does show us that when a wicked and adulterous generation asked for a sign, Jesus only gave one sign, the sign of His resurrection. When the Jewish authorities came to Him early in the book of John asking for a sign for His authority to clean out the temple, he told them 'Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up', another reference to the resurrection. He even gave them a sign.

But the disciples asked for a sign, "What shall be the sign of Thy coming and of the end of the age?" He did not rebuke them. He answered their question and gave them a number of signs.

In Psalm 86:17, we read, "Give me a sign of your goodness, that my enemies may see it and be put to shame,"(NIV)

Apparently, it was okay to ask for this kind of sign.

Jesus once told a man, 'Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.' Then He did the miracle. So Jesus was willing to do signs to help people believe on certain occasions. He told Thomas to put his fingers in His hands and his hand into His side, and 'Be not faithless but believing.' But we can see in the words of Christ there that Thomas missed out on the blessing those who believe in Christ's resurrection without seeing get.

What about 'a wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign." These people requested a 'sign' after Jesus had done the 'sign' of feeding the five thousand. How could they ask for a sign? Well, Deuteronomy told the Israelites if a prophet prophesied something that did not come to pass, they were not to listen to him. The people may have been wanting to test Christ according to Deuteronomy. But Christ refused to give in to their test by giving them a sign, other than that of His own resurrection.

 

[presidente]

I figured as much.
all the noise and yet you have ZERO proof.

Are you posting to yourself about the Bible and the idea of miracles ceasing? You haven't posted one verse that even hints at such a thing. I suspect you know it. You've got a theory. I'm sticking with scripture.

You can dig through the evidence yourself. I don't know of any video of healings or prophecies I've witnessed myself firsthand that are on the Internet. So I'd be doing the same thing you would if you looked at any of the countless videos on the topic of healing in Jesus' name on YouTube. There are lots and lots of videos, some more impressive than others in terms of the spectacular nature of such things. Of course, we should be thankful, too, even if God heals a headache in answer to prayer.

 

[zone]

Considering that the manifestation of prophecy is being spoken of, and the manifestation of speaking in tongues is spoken of, then the conclusion would be that the manifestation of word (message) of knowledge would be what this verse is speaking of - and of course we will not need any of these manifestations once Christ returns because then we shall know even as we are known, i.e. full knowledge.

now just back up a bit - don't you know from experience that the supernatural gifts ceased?
they ceased right around the time we got the last Revelation.
so it's not hard to understand that the gifts ceased when they were no longer needed, and what we have is complete.
just as God said it would be.

Hebrews 1
1On many past occasions and in many different ways, God spoke to our fathers through the prophets. 2But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe. 3The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of His nature, upholding all things by His powerful word. After He had provided purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.…

 

[presidente]

With the Thomas scenario you just proved Zones posts.. don't be faithless

Huh? Zone won't believe miracles happen unless she sees them, kind of like Thomas in the story. I'm not Jesus though. If the Lord wants to show her a miracle, he can, after she called the speaking in tongues and prophecy of about 500 million people demonic. It seem to be a categorical statement on my end here, lumping all of it together.

We should believe God whether we see miracles or not. Demanding proof of God is a dangerous thing. Zecharias asked for a sign that an angels prophecy would come true.... an angel from heaven. His sign was that he would be mute. Moses asked for a sign. His sign was that after he went and did what God was telling him to do, he would worship the LORD on that mountain. He had to go obey, and it would work out, and that would be the sign.

God doesn't owe us miracles, and it is wrong to demand them before we will trust God. But the Bible does teach that God does do miracles, and that gifts are given as the Spirit wills.

 

[zone]

Before you get roped into Zone's way of viewing things, actually go through the references to 'sign' in the Bible. You can look up references where people asked for signs.....

haha.
yes Miss Holly.
do your work carefully and prayerfully.
let el president know what you are learning.

....

too late president.
she's seen it, and she can not unsee it.

 

[zone]

Well, according to scripture these are not "gifts", these are manifestations of one gift, i.e. the gift of holy spirit that each believer receives when they are born again. 1 Cor. 12 list them . . . 7-10.

Why would we need to speak in tongues, prophecy, or even receive a word (message) of knowledge from God when we shall know fully when Christ returns? There is no more need for we shall know even as we are known. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Why do you need to speak in tongues, prophecy, or even receive a word (message) of knowledge from God when you have the Bible....which God Himself said was/has everything we need (God-breathed) until eternity?

 

[presidente]

now just back up a bit - don't you know from experience that the supernatural gifts ceased?
they ceased right around the time we got the last Revelation.

Again, no assertion, no scripture.

so it's not hard to understand that the gifts ceased when they were no longer needed, and what we have is complete.
just as God said it would be.

The verses you try to interpret to say that, don't say 'the gifts.' The passage doesn't mention the working of miracles or healing. You just make that part up, or borrow it from others who got it from others...etc. who made it up. It's a theory, not the teaching of scripture. I Corinthians 13 tells of a time when Paul's understanding would be like a child's in comparison to when the perfect comes. Paul wrote, 'that by reading this, ye might understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ.' Whatever is coming is going to make even our understanding from reading the Bible seem like a child's understanding in comparison.

Hebrews 1
1On many past occasions and in many different ways, God spoke to our fathers through the prophets. 2But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe. 3The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of His nature, upholding all things by His powerful word. After He had provided purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.…

A beautiful passage about the Son. The Son who said, "Behold, I send unto you prophets, wise men, and scribes." This is the Son that ascended, that Ephesians 4 says ascended and gave gifts unto men, and among those gifts are prophets (see Eph. 4:11 and the previous verses.) In Acts 2, quoting Joel, we see that in the last days God will pour out of His Spirit on all flesh, and 'your sons and daughters shall prophesy.' This is the Son who chose Paul as a vessel, Paul who said, "I would that you all spake with tongues, but rather than ye prophesy.'

This is a lesser-to-greater argument, not a statement that there would be no more prophets. In some contexts 'the prophets' even refers to a certain section of Old Testament scripture.

 

[zone]

Why do you feel like you need to see a miracle.....

so that means you still haven't rustled up any proof?
it should be super easy.
i'll post a couple things and you tell me if they genuine.