Tongues???

[hornetguy]

He did not say to pray for either one (though I'm sure he'd have been fine with praying for these gifts, especially in regard to prophesying.). He doesn't say not to pray to speak in tongues. He says for the one who speaks in tongues to pray that he may interpret (I Corinthians 14:13.)

How important is it for you to actually stick with what the verses actually say?

I'm not going to try to answer all your statements... this is what Paul said... what the verse actually said... he didn't say to "pray" for the gifts, granted... he did say to earnestly desire them... If you earnestly desire something, are you going to pray about it? ...

[SUP]27 [/SUP]Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it. [SUP]28 [/SUP]And God has [SUP][r][/SUP]appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then [SUP][s][/SUP]miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues. [SUP]29 [/SUP]All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of [SUP][t][/SUP]miracles, are they? [SUP]30 [/SUP]All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? [SUP]31 [/SUP]But earnestly desire the greater gifts.

No I'm not. If you'd read my posts, you would know I do not think like that.

I'll have to go back and look, but I think you said almost EXACTLY that to VCO or someone else... that somehow "if you are not praying in the Spirit, your prayers won't be effective" or something to that effect.

Are you using The Message? He did not say 'but if not, no big deal.' He said, 'but rather that ye prophesied.'

Nope... never even read the Message.... that's the official "hornetguy paraphrased" version.

and that some use the gifts in a disorderly manner. But since these are gifts of the Spirit, I also believe it is wrong to villify them.

Villifying someone is not my intent, but if a church is conducting their worship in a disorderly fashion, isn't it our duty to correct them, lovingly, of course.

After all, that is what a majority of Paul's writings were... letters of encouragement and correction to churches.

He said... some of you are misusing the Lord's Supper... STOP IT.

He said... some of you are living in sexual sin... STOP IT.

He said... some of y'all are acting sort of crazy in your worship assemblies.... STOP IT.

 

[RickyZ]

And Satan and his forces LOVE to imitate the miracles of God, (like when Pharoah's magicians turn their staffs to snakes)

Absolutely true. God performed a real miracle in turning Aaron's staff into a snake. satan falsified that miracle by turning pharaohs magicians staffs into snakes. So if satan is falsifying tongues, doesn't that indicate that there are then real tongues?

Just making a point. I know you're going to deny it come, well, hell or high water.

 

[RickyZ]

Hey VCO, I was wondering if you had seen this http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/145405-new-improved.html

Might be right up your alley!

 

[VCO]

Absolutely true. God performed a real miracle in turning Aaron's staff into a snake. satan falsified that miracle by turning pharaohs magicians staffs into snakes. So if satan is falsifying tongues, doesn't that indicate that there are then real tongues?

Just making a point. I know you're going to deny it come, well, hell or high water.

You are right, and the REAL BIBLICAL TONGUES was what the Apostles did, while unbelieving Jews heard in their own dialektos every word that was said. Every example of tongues that is less than that, are the counterfeits. Even I have heard one especially identifying expression several times over the years coming from several different people. That means, yes, to keep peace in the family my wife and I went to their Charismatic Church whenever we were there on a Sunday. The expression that was so identical that it stood out, and I will have to spell it the way it sounded to me, was "Hobolo Shundie"; which was a MAJOR CLUE that it was nothing more than learned behavior from hearing others do it.


The purpose for the Genuine Gift of Tongues and the other sign gifts were to confirm to unbelieving Jews that the N.T. that the Apostles were preaching, was genuinely the Word of GOD, just like the O.T.

Mark 16:20 (NRSV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] And they went out and proclaimed the good news everywhere, while the Lord worked with them and confirmed the message by the signs that accompanied it.]


Was there a need for that purpose to continue beyond the completion of the N.T.? No, because just like Christ does not continue to confirm His resurrection by appearing to each new believer, once the N.T. was confirmed to a sufficient number of people, the purpose ceased and so did the accompanying sign. I will give you the possibility that if a missionary had only one chance to reach a Tribe (especially if it contained actual descendants of Israel), who were predestined to be Saved by GOD; HE certainly could for that one time incident give the supernatural Genuine Tongues to that Missionary. It was NEVER intended to be an on going ministry for Believers, because it says IT WAS FOR UNBELIEVING JEWS.

Neither was it EVER intended to edify the speaker, because PAUL FORBADE THAT in Chapter 10. Therefore when Paul said "He who speaks in an unknown tongue edifies himself. . ." Paul was giving us a REASON NOT TO DO IT, since Paul already made his position on self edification clear in Chapter 10.

 

[VCO]

Hey VCO, I was wondering if you had seen this http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/145405-new-improved.html

Might be right up your alley!

Nope, I never heard of that one, but I certainly do not need yet another improved KJV, as the Bible that I carry to Church is already the NKJV. By the way you do know that KJV was not a Translation, but rather an improved Paraphrase of the Older English Translation, updating the English Language to the way King James spoke it, and correcting some known errors in the Older Translations. How do I know, I read the KJV Original 1611 Preface and they admitted that is what their purpose was.

King James Version Original Preface

 

[hornetguy]

Nope, I never heard of that one, but I certainly do not need yet another improved KJV, as the Bible that I carry to Church is already the NKJV. By the way you do know that KJV was not a Translation, but rather an improved Paraphrase of the Older English Translation, updating the English Language to the way King James spoke it, and correcting some known errors in the Older Translations. How do I know, I read the KJV Original 1611 Preface and they admitted that is what their purpose was.

King James Version Original Preface

Oh, my... please don't tell John146 or KJV1611 about that... this thread will go off the edge quickly....

 

[RickyZ]

it's not another KJV, it's geared towards the preterist/cessationist crowd.

 

[presidente]

I'm not going to try to answer all your statements... this is what Paul said... what the verse actually said... he didn't say to "pray" for the gifts, granted... he did say to earnestly desire them... If you earnestly desire something, are you going to pray about it? ...

Paul said to earnestly desire spiritual gifts. Jesus told His disciples "What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.".

If were are told to desire something, I believe it is good to pray for it. But Paul does not say desire all spiritual gifts except tongues. He says to earnestly desire spiritual gifts, especially prophecy.

I'll have to go back and look, but I think you said almost EXACTLY that to VCO or someone else... that somehow "if you are not praying in the Spirit, your prayers won't be effective" or something to that effect.

I think you are confusing posters. You basically said you weren't going to listen to another poster in one post because you confused him with me. I was traveling this weekend, so I didn't have time to respond.

Villifying someone is not my intent, but if a church is conducting their worship in a disorderly fashion, isn't it our duty to correct them, lovingly, of course.

I wasn't referring to your comments when I said vilify. Some posters on here write about speaking in tongues as if it is of the devil.

If you think speaking in tongues is a valid spiritual gift, why would you have a problem with what I posted regarding VCO? I Corinthians 14 says that when any one speaks in tongues, no one understands him. VCO posted along the lines that he didn't recognize tongues as genuine unless others present understood. If I ask if he has actually studied I Corinthians 14, that doesn't make me arrogant. That's a reasonable question.

As far as correcting tongues used out of order goes, that is what Paul did in I Corinthians 14, and there are still churches that need the correction in that chapter, both those with disorderly speaking in tongues, and those that have developed their own order that does not allow the members of the body to function in their gifts as I Corinthians 14 commands. The teaching of the Bible is more important than the pulpit-pew tradition.

 

[VCO]

it's not another KJV, it's geared towards the preterist/cessationist crowd.

So why would I want to arm myself with a sword that you guys would have an even bigger reason to criticize it?

I have no problem validating my beliefs with the Translations that I currently use.

 

[zone]

I wasn't referring to your comments when I said vilify. Some posters on here write about speaking in tongues as if it is of the devil..

the practice in the hands of the pentismatics is of the devil.

 

[hornetguy]

I think you are confusing posters. You basically said you weren't going to listen to another poster in one post because you confused him with me. I was traveling this weekend, so I didn't have time to respond.

I think you are correct... I went back through this thread and didn't find the post I was thinking about... I haven't had time to go back through any of the other tongue threads... but I will take your word for what you didn't say.. my apologies. I'm old, I confuse easily.

If you think speaking in tongues is a valid spiritual gift, why would you have a problem with what I posted regarding VCO? I Corinthians 14 says that when any one speaks in tongues, no one understands him. VCO posted along the lines that he didn't recognize tongues as genuine unless others present understood. If I ask if he has actually studied I Corinthians 14, that doesn't make me arrogant. That's a reasonable question.

I think that speaking in a true, known language, previously unknown to the speaker is definitely a gift of the Spirit.

I do NOT believe that the babbling that goes on in many "charismatic" type churches is of the Spirit.... and if it is not of the Spirit, then it is dangerous, and wrong.

I do not know whether an individual's "prayer tongue" is genuine... perhaps it is. It is not up to me to make that call. Paul apparently prayed "in the Spirit", and also "in the understanding".

There is also a strong possibility that the gifts of prophecy and tongues faded away after the death of the apostles and their followers. Some scriptures point toward that. I think it's about a 50/50 chance that that is what the scriptures are telling us.

I have prayed to be filled with the Spirit, and to receive the gift of tongues. I had another believer "lay hands on me" for that reason. I had been convinced that it was a true gift, and that it would make my spiritual life much more meaningful. I was even "coached" on how to start praying/speaking in tongues. I have not ever spoken or prayed in tongues.

And, of course, the easy answer is that "I just didn't have enough faith"... or that I'm not a "true believer", or that I haven't been "born again"... none of those are true.

 

[VCO]

Anything that has ''snake handler'' in it is not good lol that makes dozens of red flags go up. Ive read all sorts of stuff about oneness pentecostle because ppl kept accusing me of 'being in that cult' and I started to get confused and I ended up finding that not even they suit me lol. Nor do I see any proof that is a cult. If we call every somewhere strict denomination cult or sect, then we all in the end are cultists. Tho I do agree that their theories (some) are a bit crazy

Amen to the Red Flags. One of the most famous Pentecostal Snake Handlers of recent history WAS Pastor Mack Wolford and back in February 2014, he was bit by a rattle snake in a service and the following day he died. The same cult-like religion will also drink mixtures laced with arsenic.

Yes you are right: ALL KINDS OF RED FLAGS.

Matthew 4:5-6 (RSV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Then the devil took him to the holy city, and set him on the pinnacle of the temple,
[SUP]6 [/SUP] and said to him, "If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down; for it is written, `He will give his angels charge of you,' and `On their hands they will bear you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone.'"
Matthew 4:7 (RSV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Jesus said to him, "Again it is written, ' You shall not tempt the Lord your God.' "

 

[zone]

.... I had another believer "lay hands on me" for that reason. I had been convinced that it was a true gift, and that it would make my spiritual life much more meaningful. I was even "coached" on how to start praying/speaking in tongues. I have not ever spoken or prayed in tongues.

And, of course, the easy answer is that "I just didn't have enough faith"... or that I'm not a "true believer", or that I haven't been "born again"... none of those are true.

wow ya.
I'd get far away from that group.
none of that stuff is legit.

 

[hornetguy]

wow ya.
I'd get far away from that group.
none of that stuff is legit.

Yes, I did. This was not at my church... it was with some other folks that had come to town, and were doing individual studies and such. This was back in the late 70's I think... they were called the WOW... Word over the World.. I was gullible enough to fall for their hype... they were very persuasive.

 

[presidente]

You are right, and the REAL BIBLICAL TONGUES was what the Apostles did, while unbelieving Jews heard in their own dialektos every word that was said. Every example of tongues that is less than that, are the counterfeits.

Do you believe I Corinthians is part of the 'REAL BIBLE'? Do you believe it is inspired scripture?

I Corinthians 14

2 [FONT=&quot]For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

[/FONT]Do you believe these tongues were real? If they weren't 'real Biblical tongues', why would Paul want them interpreted to edify the congregation?

The Corinthian audience was primarily Gentile (I Corinthians 12:1).

Have you ever read I Corinthians 14 before?

 

[presidente]

There is also a strong possibility that the gifts of prophecy and tongues faded away after the death of the apostles and their followers. Some scriptures point toward that. I think it's about a 50/50 chance that that is what the scriptures are telling us.

Albert Einstein is quoted as saying that God does not play dice with the universe. There is no chance on this. Either it is or it 'aint.

Something I find ironic is people who hold to a dispensational eschatology which has the two witnesses and the blood of prophets in Babylon set at some future time, who try to argue that the gift of prophecy ceased.

Historically, arguing that these gifts have ceased presents a problem. There is plenty of evidence for second century prophecy, but there is evidence for it in later centuries. Why would prophecy have still been around with Ireneaus wrote about it in 200 AD? Why references to such things in later centuries? St. Patrick lived around the fifth century. There is a document historians actually accept as being written by him. It refers to a supernatural vision and a supernatural voice that led to his Irish ministry. And of course, that is not the only such figure about whom we read about miracles, revelatory experiences, etc. in history.

I really don't get why the apostles dying would be considered the 'perfect' or whatever other interpretation one could use to arrive at the idea that these gifts died out after they died. When they died, I suspect the Christians at the funeral were not saying, "This is perfect."

 

[VCO]

Yes, I did. This was not at my church... it was with some other folks that had come to town, and were doing individual studies and such. This was back in the late 70's I think... they were called the WOW... Word over the World.. I was gullible enough to fall for their hype... they were very persuasive.

Yes, I the late 70's were something else. We had a dear friend get caught up in a cult back then. This hippy type of guru, drifted into town, and he quickly gained a sizable following of young adults. He would give them pot to smoke and then do a bible study. Teri, our friend, fell for that guru's teachings and came to my wife and tried to talk her into joining the group, but Teri said her guru told her that Jesus was a sinner just like us, and he showed them were it was in the bible. We seriously tried to get her out of that cult, but she rejected our efforts.

The last time we tried to get Teri out of that group, we went over to her apartment. But before we went in, we sat in the car praying for about 20 minutes that GOD would send angels, even Michael if need be, to drive the demons out of her apartment and the Angels would stand guard keeping those demons out while we talked to Teri. I stuck with showing her verses that proved Jesus was not a sinner, while she paged back and forth stating two or three times, "I don't understand it, I can't find my verses that prove he was a sinner." I asked her several time to repent and leave that study group, but she refused.

A week or so later, Teri called to talk to my wife, telling us she was moving out of town, apparently with that guru. Suddenly my wife hung up the phone, and started crying. She said that while she was talking to Teri, a dark mourning feeling came over her, like Teri had just died. I think my wife sensed that Teri had hardened her heart to the point, that GOD washed His hands of her, and finished hardening her heart.


Exodus 4:21 (HCSB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] The LORD instructed Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, make sure you do all the wonders before Pharaoh that I have put within your power. But I will harden his heart so that he won’t let the people go.

 

[RickyZ]

the practice in the hands of the pentismatics is of the devil.

Wow. You do like to tempt fate... and the Lord.

 

[presidente]

A week or so later, Teri called to talk to my wife, telling us she was moving out of town, apparently with that guru. Suddenly my wife hung up the phone, and started crying. She said that while she was talking to Teri, a dark mourning feeling came over her, like Teri had just died. I think my wife sensed that Teri had hardened her heart to the point, that GOD washed His hands of her, and finished hardening her heart.

That sounds almost Charismatic.

 

[VCO]

Do you believe I Corinthians is part of the 'REAL BIBLE'? Do you believe it is inspired scripture?

I Corinthians 14

2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Do you believe these tongues were real? If they weren't 'real Biblical tongues', why would Paul want them interpreted to edify the congregation?

The Corinthian audience was primarily Gentile (I Corinthians 12:1).

Have you ever read I Corinthians 14 before?

Many times. I am 67, and I was born again when I was 29.

I believe you INTERPRET IT WRONG, because you are desperately trying to justify your personal experience, because of wonderful feelings it generates, leads you to falsely believe it is of GOD. In fact Plato centuries before Christ, used to speak in tongues in the Greek Mystery Religion that he attended. HE TOO was VERY impressed with the feelings it generated, and HE TOO assumed it was of the gods. Therefore he even gave a name to those feelings, Plato called it "Divine Ecstasy". In other words you do not really listen to what the Scriptures say, because you are desperately trying to bend the meaning to make it fit your experience, thereby justifying your assumption that it is of GOD. Try using the Scriptures to interpret whether or not your experience is of GOD.

14:2-39 Although it is not indicated consistently in some translations, the distinction between the singular tongue and the plural tongues is foundational to the proper interpretation of this chapter. Paul seems to use the singular to distinguish the counterfeit gift of pagan gibberish and the plural to indicate the genuine gift of a foreign language (see note on v. 2). It was perhaps in recognition of that, that the King James Version (KJV) translators added consistently the word “unknown” before every singular form (see vv. 2, 4, 13, 14, 19, 27). The implications of that distinction will be noted as appropriate. Against the backdrop of carnality and counterfeit ecstatic speech learned from the experience of the pagans, Paul covers three basic issues with regard to speaking in languages by the gift of the Holy Spirit: (1) its position, inferior to prophecy (vv. 1-19); (2) its purpose, a sign to unbelievers, not believers (vv.20-25); and (3) its procedure, systematic, limited, and orderly (vv. 26-40).

The MacArthur Bible Commentary.

For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries [1Cor. 14:2].Note that the word unknown is in italics in your Bible, and that means it is not in the original Greek. Nowhere in the Bible does it speak of unknown tongues. It should read: "For he that speaketh in a tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries." Because nobody will understand him, he is not to speak in a language that is unknown to the group -- unless somebody there can interpret.
We will see in this chapter that there are three gifts which Paul emphasizes: prophecy, tongues, and the interpretation of tongues. Have you ever noticed that there is very little reference to tongues in the Bible except in these three chapters? There are references to it in Mark 16:17 and Acts 2:3-4, 11; Acts 10:46; Acts 19:6. Cornelius and his household spoke in tongues. The disciples of John in Ephesus spoke in tongues after Paul had preached the gospel to them. We find, therefore, that tongues were used at the institution of the dispensation of grace. Every time tongues were used, they were used in that connection. There was speaking in tongues on the Day of Pentecost when the gospel went to the nation of Israel. There was speaking in tongues at the home of Cornelius when the gospel was opened to the Gentiles. There was speaking in tongues in Ephesus when the gospel moved out into the uttermost parts of the earth. Those are the three instances.

Thru The Bible with J. Vernon McGee.

Notes for Verse 2Verse 2. speaketh... unto God—who alone understands all languages.

no man understandeth—generally speaking; the few who have the gift of interpreting tongues are the exception.

in the spirit—as opposed to "the understanding" (1Cor 14:14).

mysteries—unintelligible to the hearers, exciting their wonder, rather than instructing them. Corinth, being a mart resorted to by merchants from Asia, Africa, and Europe, would give scope amidst its mixed population for the exercise of the gift of tongues; but its legitimate use was in an audience understanding the tongue of the speaker, not, as the Corinthians abused it, in mere display.

A Commentary: Critical, Experimental, and Practical on the Old and New Testaments.