Tongues???
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I do not want to be a bummer,but we cannot put a time limit on tongues,and how would you know,for if you are speaking in tongues do you have the time to look at the clock,and if you set an alarm,God works for as long as He works on His time limit.
Jas 3:1 My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.
Jas 3:2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.
Jas 3:3 Behold, we put bits in the horses' mouths, that they may obey us; and we turn about their whole body.
Jas 3:4 Behold also the ships, which though they be so great, and are driven of fierce winds, yet are they turned about with a very small helm, whithersoever the governor listeth.
Jas 3:5 Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!
Jas 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
Jas 3:7 For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind:
Jas 3:8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
The tongue is the most unruliest member of the body,which means it will participate in sin more than any other body part,for some might not want to physically harm anyone,but they might dog them out with their tongue.
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ.
If we can tame the tongue then we can tame the whole body and abstain from sin,and become a perfect man.
But no person can tame the tongue,and if not we cannot become a perfect man.
Is that what God does,tames the one part of the body,the tongue,that no person can tame.
VCO
No, it doesn't help. "as the heathen do" Jesus sent Holy Spirit into the world, and He gave gifts to men. His own.
My husband and I had a young Spanish boy, Christian boy, who needed a place to stay for a short time. He heard me praying and told me that he could pick out the words I was saying. I cannot do the roll of the tongue except when I pray in Spirit. Not sure what to call it.
And VCO...this begins with worship.
No, it doesn't help. "as the heathen do" Jesus sent Holy Spirit into the world, and He gave gifts to men. His own.
My husband and I had a young Spanish boy, Christian boy, who needed a place to stay for a short time. He heard me praying and told me that he could pick out the words I was saying. I cannot do the roll of the tongue except when I pray in Spirit. Not sure what to call it.
And VCO...this begins with worship.
And Satan and his forces LOVE to imitate the miracles of God, (like when Pharoah's magicians turn their staffs to snakes); especially if it takes your focus off of Christ and off edifying others, and puts your focus on SELF. No the vast majority of charismatic tongues, in my opinion, is nothing more than the ecstatic utterances that psychiatrists call psychological phenomena; however I have documented demonic cursing in two churches decades apart, and everyone in those congregations refused to believe it was not the HOLY SPIRIT moving.
The scriptures do not tell us, if it feels good, and gets everyone excited, know it is of GOD.
Here is what the Scriptures actually instruct us to do:
1 John 4:1 (ESV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
But we see no one on the Charismatic side of the fence, testing the spirits that are involved in charismatic tongues. Everyone just ASSUMES it is of GOD.
I think we are done here.
Last edited:
J
jaybird88
Guest
The pagan religions did; so do muslims, mormons, hindus, and some of the other non-Christian religions of today.
Here is a chart comparing the SIMILARITIES between some of the Eastern Religions and Pentecostalism:
[TABLE="width: 568"]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000ff, colspan: 8"]Summary Chart[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 17%"]Manifestation[/TD]
[TD="width: 14%"]Kundalini Yoga[/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"]Sathya Sai[/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"]Subud[/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"]Qigong[/TD]
[TD="width: 12%"]Shakers[/TD]
[TD="width: 15%, bgcolor: #ffff00"]Pentecostal Today[/TD]
[TD="width: 13%, bgcolor: #000000"]Bible Examples[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 17%"]Slain in the spirit[/TD]
[TD="width: 14%"]
[TD="width: 10%"]?[/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"]
[TD="width: 10%"]
[TD="width: 12%"]
[TD="width: 15%, bgcolor: #ffff00"]
[TD="width: 13%, bgcolor: #000000"]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 17%"]Uncontrollablelaughing[/TD]
[TD="width: 14%"]
[TD="width: 10%"]?[/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"]
[TD="width: 10%"]
[TD="width: 12%"]
[TD="width: 15%, bgcolor: #ffff00"]
[TD="width: 13%, bgcolor: #000000"]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 17%"]Physical jerks[/TD]
[TD="width: 14%"]
[TD="width: 10%"]?[/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"]
[TD="width: 10%"]
[TD="width: 12%"]
[TD="width: 15%, bgcolor: #ffff00"]
[TD="width: 13%, bgcolor: #000000"]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 17%"]Animal sounds, roaring[/TD]
[TD="width: 14%"]
[TD="width: 10%"]?[/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"]
[TD="width: 10%"]
[TD="width: 12%"]
[TD="width: 15%, bgcolor: #ffff00"]
[TD="width: 13%, bgcolor: #000000"]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 17%"]Smelling fragrances[/TD]
[TD="width: 14%"]
[TD="width: 10%"]?[/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"]?[/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"]?[/TD]
[TD="width: 12%"]?[/TD]
[TD="width: 15%, bgcolor: #ffff00"]
[TD="width: 13%, bgcolor: #000000"]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 17%"]New spiritual insights & revelations[/TD]
[TD="width: 14%"]
[TD="width: 10%"]
[TD="width: 10%"]
[TD="width: 10%"]
[TD="width: 12%"]
[TD="width: 15%, bgcolor: #ffff00"]
[TD="width: 13%, bgcolor: #000000"]No: Bible competed 96 AD[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 17%"]Demon possession of adherents[/TD]
[TD="width: 14%"]
[TD="width: 10%"]?[/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"]?[/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"]?[/TD]
[TD="width: 12%"]
[TD="width: 15%, bgcolor: #ffff00"]
[TD="width: 13%, bgcolor: #000000"]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 17%"]Spontaneous movements[/TD]
[TD="width: 14%"]
[TD="width: 10%"]
[TD="width: 10%"]
[TD="width: 10%"]
[TD="width: 12%"]
[TD="width: 15%, bgcolor: #ffff00"]
[TD="width: 13%, bgcolor: #000000"]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 17%"]Leaders is Divine[/TD]
[TD="width: 14%"]
[TD="width: 10%"]
[TD="width: 10%"]
[TD="width: 10%"]
[TD="width: 12%"]
[TD="width: 15%, bgcolor: #ffff00"]
[TD="width: 13%, bgcolor: #000000"]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 17%"]Revival like meetings[/TD]
[TD="width: 14%"]
[TD="width: 10%"]
[TD="width: 10%"]
[TD="width: 10%"]
[TD="width: 12%"]
[TD="width: 15%, bgcolor: #ffff00"]
[TD="width: 13%, bgcolor: #000000"]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 17%"]Feel energy surge, electricity or fire[/TD]
[TD="width: 14%"]
[TD="width: 10%"]?[/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"]
[TD="width: 10%"]
[TD="width: 12%"]
[TD="width: 15%, bgcolor: #ffff00"]
[TD="width: 13%, bgcolor: #000000"]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 17%"]Repetitive singing, chanting[/TD]
[TD="width: 14%"]
[TD="width: 10%"]?[/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"]
[TD="width: 10%"]
[TD="width: 12%"]?[/TD]
[TD="width: 15%, bgcolor: #ffff00"]
[TD="width: 13%, bgcolor: #000000"]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 17%"]Clearing the mind, emotionalism Anti-intellectual:[/TD]
[TD="width: 14%"]
[TD="width: 10%"]?[/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"]
[TD="width: 10%"]
[TD="width: 12%"]
[TD="width: 15%, bgcolor: #ffff00"]
[TD="width: 13%, bgcolor: #000000"]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 17%"]Leaders Rich[/TD]
[TD="width: 14%"]
[TD="width: 10%"]?[/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"]
[TD="width: 10%"]
[TD="width: 12%"]
[TD="width: 15%, bgcolor: #ffff00"]
[TD="width: 13%, bgcolor: #000000"]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 17%"]Tongues[/TD]
[TD="width: 14%"]
[TD="width: 10%"]?[/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"]
[TD="width: 10%"]
[TD="width: 12%"]
[TD="width: 15%, bgcolor: #ffff00"]
[TD="width: 13%, bgcolor: #000000"]Acts 2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 17%"]Awakened through laying-on-of-hands[/TD]
[TD="width: 14%"]
[TD="width: 10%"]
[TD="width: 10%"]
[TD="width: 10%"]
[TD="width: 12%"]
[TD="width: 15%, bgcolor: #ffff00"]
[TD="width: 13%, bgcolor: #000000"]Acts 8:14-19; 19:5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 17%"]Leaders directly sent from God[/TD]
[TD="width: 14%"]
[TD="width: 10%"]
[TD="width: 10%"]
[TD="width: 10%"]
[TD="width: 12%"]
[TD="width: 15%, bgcolor: #ffff00"]
[TD="width: 13%, bgcolor: #000000"]Gal 1:12[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 17%"]Leaders inspired[/TD]
[TD="width: 14%"]
[TD="width: 10%"]
[TD="width: 10%"]
[TD="width: 10%"]
[TD="width: 12%"]
[TD="width: 15%, bgcolor: #ffff00"]
[TD="width: 13%, bgcolor: #000000"]2 Tim 3:16[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 17%"]Leaders miraculous[/TD]
[TD="width: 14%"]
[TD="width: 10%"]
[TD="width: 10%"]
[TD="width: 10%"]
[TD="width: 12%"]
[TD="width: 15%, bgcolor: #ffff00"]
[TD="width: 13%, bgcolor: #000000"]Paul[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 17%"]Many miracles and healing[/TD]
[TD="width: 14%"]
[TD="width: 10%"]
[TD="width: 10%"]
[TD="width: 10%"]
[TD="width: 12%"]
[TD="width: 15%, bgcolor: #ffff00"]
[TD="width: 13%, bgcolor: #000000"]Acts 8:13[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 17%"]Prophecy[/TD]
[TD="width: 14%"]
[TD="width: 10%"]
[TD="width: 10%"]
[TD="width: 10%"]
[TD="width: 12%"]
[TD="width: 15%, bgcolor: #ffff00"]
[TD="width: 13%, bgcolor: #000000"]Acts 2:17[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 17%"]Trances[/TD]
[TD="width: 14%"]
[TD="width: 10%"]
[TD="width: 10%"]
[TD="width: 10%"]
[TD="width: 12%"]
[TD="width: 15%, bgcolor: #ffff00"]
[TD="width: 13%, bgcolor: #000000"]Acts 10:10[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 17%"]Seeing visions[/TD]
[TD="width: 14%"]
[TD="width: 10%"]
[TD="width: 10%"]
[TD="width: 10%"]
[TD="width: 12%"]
[TD="width: 15%, bgcolor: #ffff00"]
[TD="width: 13%, bgcolor: #000000"]Acts 9:10-12[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 17%"]Mind reading[/TD]
[TD="width: 14%"]
[TD="width: 10%"]
[TD="width: 10%"]
[TD="width: 10%"]?[/TD]
[TD="width: 12%"]?[/TD]
[TD="width: 15%, bgcolor: #ffff00"]
[TD="width: 13%, bgcolor: #000000"]Jesus[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 17%"]Manifestation[/TD]
[TD="width: 14%"]Kundalini Yoga[/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"]Sathya Sai[/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"]Subud[/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"]Qigong[/TD]
[TD="width: 12%"]Shakers[/TD]
[TD="width: 15%, bgcolor: #ffff00"]Pentecostal Today[/TD]
[TD="width: 13%, bgcolor: #000000"]Bible Examples[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 8"][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Last edited:
I always told people to be careful with tongues and stuff because pagans did it.. yet barely people believed me.. yay!
Now also.. uhm I do have to correct you that this is not all Pentecostalism. Some of it but not all. If you take it all, its new age.
If you said '' New Age Pentecostalism'' than I would have agreed, but all pents.. no. People who care for he bible and go by it, they wont have all of these criteria.Now I do have to say that I havent ever encountered a pentecostal church where they mindread and smelling fregrances..
(Im not saying it doesnt exist, just that this is not what Pentecostalism is about)
Now also.. uhm I do have to correct you that this is not all Pentecostalism. Some of it but not all. If you take it all, its new age.
If you said '' New Age Pentecostalism'' than I would have agreed, but all pents.. no. People who care for he bible and go by it, they wont have all of these criteria.Now I do have to say that I havent ever encountered a pentecostal church where they mindread and smelling fregrances..
(Im not saying it doesnt exist, just that this is not what Pentecostalism is about)
The pagan religions did; so do muslims, mormons, hindus, and some of the other non-Christian religions of today.
Here is a chart comparing the SIMILARITIES between some of the Eastern Religions and Pentecostalism:
[TABLE="width: 568"]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000ff, colspan: 8"]Summary Chart[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 17%"]Manifestation[/TD]
[TD="width: 14%"]Kundalini Yoga[/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"]Sathya Sai[/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"]Subud[/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"]Qigong[/TD]
[TD="width: 12%"]Shakers[/TD]
[TD="width: 15%, bgcolor: #ffff00"]Pentecostal Today[/TD]
[TD="width: 13%, bgcolor: #000000"]Bible Examples[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 17%"]Slain in the spirit[/TD]
[TD="width: 14%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"]?[/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 12%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 15%, bgcolor: #ffff00"][/TD]
[TD="width: 13%, bgcolor: #000000"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 17%"]Uncontrollablelaughing[/TD]
[TD="width: 14%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"]?[/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 12%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 15%, bgcolor: #ffff00"][/TD]
[TD="width: 13%, bgcolor: #000000"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 17%"]Physical jerks[/TD]
[TD="width: 14%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"]?[/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 12%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 15%, bgcolor: #ffff00"][/TD]
[TD="width: 13%, bgcolor: #000000"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 17%"]Animal sounds, roaring[/TD]
[TD="width: 14%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"]?[/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 12%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 15%, bgcolor: #ffff00"][/TD]
[TD="width: 13%, bgcolor: #000000"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 17%"]Smelling fragrances[/TD]
[TD="width: 14%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"]?[/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"]?[/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"]?[/TD]
[TD="width: 12%"]?[/TD]
[TD="width: 15%, bgcolor: #ffff00"][/TD]
[TD="width: 13%, bgcolor: #000000"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 17%"]New spiritual insights & revelations[/TD]
[TD="width: 14%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 12%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 15%, bgcolor: #ffff00"][/TD]
[TD="width: 13%, bgcolor: #000000"]No: Bible competed 96 AD[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 17%"]Demon possession of adherents[/TD]
[TD="width: 14%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"]?[/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"]?[/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"]?[/TD]
[TD="width: 12%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 15%, bgcolor: #ffff00"][/TD]
[TD="width: 13%, bgcolor: #000000"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 17%"]Spontaneous movements[/TD]
[TD="width: 14%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 12%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 15%, bgcolor: #ffff00"][/TD]
[TD="width: 13%, bgcolor: #000000"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 17%"]Leaders is Divine[/TD]
[TD="width: 14%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 12%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 15%, bgcolor: #ffff00"][/TD]
[TD="width: 13%, bgcolor: #000000"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 17%"]Revival like meetings[/TD]
[TD="width: 14%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 12%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 15%, bgcolor: #ffff00"][/TD]
[TD="width: 13%, bgcolor: #000000"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 17%"]Feel energy surge, electricity or fire[/TD]
[TD="width: 14%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"]?[/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 12%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 15%, bgcolor: #ffff00"][/TD]
[TD="width: 13%, bgcolor: #000000"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 17%"]Repetitive singing, chanting[/TD]
[TD="width: 14%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"]?[/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 12%"]?[/TD]
[TD="width: 15%, bgcolor: #ffff00"][/TD]
[TD="width: 13%, bgcolor: #000000"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 17%"]Clearing the mind, emotionalism Anti-intellectual:[/TD]
[TD="width: 14%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"]?[/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 12%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 15%, bgcolor: #ffff00"][/TD]
[TD="width: 13%, bgcolor: #000000"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 17%"]Leaders Rich[/TD]
[TD="width: 14%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"]?[/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 12%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 15%, bgcolor: #ffff00"][/TD]
[TD="width: 13%, bgcolor: #000000"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 17%"]Tongues[/TD]
[TD="width: 14%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"]?[/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 12%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 15%, bgcolor: #ffff00"][/TD]
[TD="width: 13%, bgcolor: #000000"]Acts 2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 17%"]Awakened through laying-on-of-hands[/TD]
[TD="width: 14%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 12%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 15%, bgcolor: #ffff00"][/TD]
[TD="width: 13%, bgcolor: #000000"]Acts 8:14-19; 19:5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 17%"]Leaders directly sent from God[/TD]
[TD="width: 14%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 12%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 15%, bgcolor: #ffff00"][/TD]
[TD="width: 13%, bgcolor: #000000"]Gal 1:12[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 17%"]Leaders inspired[/TD]
[TD="width: 14%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 12%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 15%, bgcolor: #ffff00"][/TD]
[TD="width: 13%, bgcolor: #000000"]2 Tim 3:16[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 17%"]Leaders miraculous[/TD]
[TD="width: 14%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 12%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 15%, bgcolor: #ffff00"][/TD]
[TD="width: 13%, bgcolor: #000000"]Paul[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 17%"]Many miracles and healing[/TD]
[TD="width: 14%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 12%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 15%, bgcolor: #ffff00"][/TD]
[TD="width: 13%, bgcolor: #000000"]Acts 8:13[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 17%"]Prophecy[/TD]
[TD="width: 14%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 12%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 15%, bgcolor: #ffff00"][/TD]
[TD="width: 13%, bgcolor: #000000"]Acts 2:17[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 17%"]Trances[/TD]
[TD="width: 14%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 12%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 15%, bgcolor: #ffff00"][/TD]
[TD="width: 13%, bgcolor: #000000"]Acts 10:10[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 17%"]Seeing visions[/TD]
[TD="width: 14%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 12%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 15%, bgcolor: #ffff00"][/TD]
[TD="width: 13%, bgcolor: #000000"]Acts 9:10-12[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 17%"]Mind reading[/TD]
[TD="width: 14%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"]?[/TD]
[TD="width: 12%"]?[/TD]
[TD="width: 15%, bgcolor: #ffff00"][/TD]
[TD="width: 13%, bgcolor: #000000"]Jesus[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 17%"]Manifestation[/TD]
[TD="width: 14%"]Kundalini Yoga[/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"]Sathya Sai[/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"]Subud[/TD]
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[TD="width: 12%"]Shakers[/TD]
[TD="width: 15%, bgcolor: #ffff00"]Pentecostal Today[/TD]
[TD="width: 13%, bgcolor: #000000"]Bible Examples[/TD]
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Now, see... there's that arrogance again.... "you don't believe like me, so YOU must not be a true student of the word." Or, "you must not believe the Bible"....
He could just as easily accuse YOU of not believing 1 Corinthians....
What IS "perfect", if not Jesus and his church? There are a LOT of people that see this scripture as saying that as soon as Jesus' body (the church) was established and "going" that tongues and prophecies stopped. In other words, nobody after the apostles had/needed those gifts.
So, it would be just as accurate, scripture-wise to say that tongues have ceased...... if we want to pick and choose scriptures to fit our own agenda.
You SAY that you don't "require" tongue-speaking as evidence of a person's salvation status, then you turn around and accuse them of "not believing the Bible" if they disagree with YOUR understanding of a couple of scriptures...
....on a "gift" that Paul said was not all that important in the first place. Even back then....
I see your true colors...shining through... (sung to the tune of "True Colors" of course..
)
I agree those are the two that I have never see too. But they obviously were using a very broad brush for that label Pentecostal. For example, I personally know some Pentecostal Pastors that will tell you that the Appalachian Snake Handler Pentecostals and the Oneness Pentecostals are cults. Yes, I knew the New Age thought (realize you are little gods) crept into the Church too. Even men like Fredrick Price and Robert Schuller, bought into that one.
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Anything that has ''snake handler'' in it is not good lol that makes dozens of red flags go up. Ive read all sorts of stuff about oneness pentecostle because ppl kept accusing me of 'being in that cult' and I started to get confused and I ended up finding that not even they suit me lol. Nor do I see any proof that is a cult. If we call every somewhere strict denomination cult or sect, then we all in the end are cultists. Tho I do agree that their theories (some) are a bit crazy
Now, see... there's that arrogance again.... "you don't believe like me, so YOU must not be a true student of the word." Or, "you must not believe the Bible"....
He could just as easily accuse YOU of not believing 1 Corinthians....
What IS "perfect", if not Jesus and his church? There are a LOT of people that see this scripture as saying that as soon as Jesus' body (the church) was established and "going" that tongues and prophecies stopped. In other words, nobody after the apostles had/needed those gifts.
So, it would be just as accurate, scripture-wise to say that tongues have ceased...... if we want to pick and choose scriptures to fit our own agenda.
You SAY that you don't "require" tongue-speaking as evidence of a person's salvation status, then you turn around and accuse them of "not believing the Bible" if they disagree with YOUR understanding of a couple of scriptures...
....on a "gift" that Paul said was not all that important in the first place. Even back then....
I see your true colors...shining through... (sung to the tune of "True Colors" of course..
You know, not only is their tongues vain, babbling repetitions, so are their arguments.
No, it's not arrogance. It's confidence. I realize the issue is not always blindess. Sometimes people read, but just do not get what is said right there on the page. It can be a spiritual thing. But even so, it is hard to see how someone can really study and not see plain statements of fact. Are you familiar with the passages? I am also wondering why you do not agree with my own observations.
I have also pointed out the issues that cause me to make this statement over and over again in the thread. In I Corinthians 14, when any man speaks in tongues 'no man understandeth him.' Have you read this in the passage? Paul says if he prays in a tongue, his spirit prays, but his understanding is unfruitful.
If one asserts that the only genuine speaking in tongues is the type where other people hear and understand their language, what conclusions can we draw? Can you think of something other than the following?
1. He hasn't read I Corinthians or studied it enough to remember that in it, we read that when one speaks in tongues 'no man understandeth him.'
2. He has read I Corinthians 14 many times, but for some reason, is unable to comprehend.
3. He rejects I Corinthians 14 as inspired.
4. He thinks the Corinthian's tongues were false (see number 2 again.)
If you were having a conversation with a preacher who claimed that Jesus never went to Nazareth, would it be wrong for you to ask if he had read the Gospels? If you were having a conversation with a preacher who said that Paul had never been to Rome, would it be wrong for you to say you wondered whether he had really studied the book of Acts? I'd say 'no' to both. And if you said such a thing, I wouldn't accuse you of arrogance for doing so.
You should be careful about judging men's hearts. I notice this seems to be a pattern with your posting.
He could, but what basis would he have for doing so? I'm pointing out some specific issues that do not fit his interpretation. His interpretation seems to be based solely on Acts (with some assumptions that things MUST happen the way they did in Acts) while totally disregarding I Corinthians.
I've got a question for you. Is there any internal evidence in I Corinthians that Paul was talking about the perfection of the church? Does it fit his flow of thought?
As Paul sat down to write an epistle in which he would address spiritual gifts, in I Corinthians 1:7, he wrote, "So that ye come behind in no spiritual gift, waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." Why would he write that if he expected the very gifts he would write about to cease before Jesus came back?
There are no scriptures that say tongues have ceased.
Those scriptures are part of the Bible. I was talking about the parts of the Bible in question.
I'm going to have to guess at what you mean. This is kind of cryptic. 'That tongues language'? Which one?
If I hear speaking in tongues and it is some language I don't know (as is typical), not I don't understand it. If God gave me the gift of interpretation, I might. But I haven't experienced that.
I have a question for you. Do you think when a Christian in Corinth spoke in tongues, that he was engaging in 'vain repetitions'.
On 'vain repetitions.' Not all repetitions are vain. I've read where someone objected to saying the Lord's prayer because it was a memorized prayer that people repeat, so he considered it to be a 'vain repetition.'
The problem with that, is that though it may be a 'repetition' in a sense, it is not vain. Or it need not be. Maybe there is someone out there who unthinkingly repeats the Lord's prayer without even thinking what it means, maybe the pay off some penance a priest assigned him. But repeating the Lord's prayer is not necessarily vain.
There are those who object to certain modern songs because they contain repetitive choruses, who also refer to 'vain repetitions.' But repetition is not vain. Some Psalms repeat 'Selah' quite a bit. There is some oft repeated wording in Psalm 150. Kings and Chronicles contain some repetition of phrases used to describe kings' sins and various other things. These repitions are not vain.
Is speaking in tongues 'vain repetition'. Well, speaking in tongues is not necessarily repetitive. Some speaking in tongues may seem that way. Some 'natural languages' that we can study seem that way. In Arabic you might 'huna mukminuna' (There are believers, with"there" in the locational sense rather than the existential sense.) Here 'una gets repeated. Some languages are like that, with repetitive-sounding grammatical components.
But again, repetitiveness, does not prove that something is vain.
When we consider the characteristics of speaking in tongues in I Corinthians 14, when one speaks in tongues, no one understandeth him. In Acts 2, we read that those present understood he disciples tspeaking in tongues in their own languages. But this apparently wasn't the norm. There is no reference to those present understanding speaking in tongues in Acts 10 or 19. And in I Corinthians 14, in the context of church meetings, Paul points out 'no man understandeth him.' Other people did not understand speaking in tongues.
Speaking in tongues edifieds the speaker. It neededs to be interpreted, through a gift of the Spirit, to edify other people. The speaker, generally, does not understand what he says. Paul said if he prayed in a tongue, his spirit prayed, but his understanding is not fruitful.
Nothing in this passage would indicate that tongues are 'vain.' The do edify the speaker, and the previous reference to edify in the epistle, in chapter 6, does seem to indicate that self-edification can be a good thing. Since Paul said that all things were lawful for him, but not all things edified. Edification of the church through tongues and interpretation is a positive thing, not something negative or 'vain.'
The problem with that, is that though it may be a 'repetition' in a sense, it is not vain. Or it need not be. Maybe there is someone out there who unthinkingly repeats the Lord's prayer without even thinking what it means, maybe the pay off some penance a priest assigned him. But repeating the Lord's prayer is not necessarily vain.
There are those who object to certain modern songs because they contain repetitive choruses, who also refer to 'vain repetitions.' But repetition is not vain. Some Psalms repeat 'Selah' quite a bit. There is some oft repeated wording in Psalm 150. Kings and Chronicles contain some repetition of phrases used to describe kings' sins and various other things. These repitions are not vain.
Is speaking in tongues 'vain repetition'. Well, speaking in tongues is not necessarily repetitive. Some speaking in tongues may seem that way. Some 'natural languages' that we can study seem that way. In Arabic you might 'huna mukminuna' (There are believers, with"there" in the locational sense rather than the existential sense.) Here 'una gets repeated. Some languages are like that, with repetitive-sounding grammatical components.
But again, repetitiveness, does not prove that something is vain.
When we consider the characteristics of speaking in tongues in I Corinthians 14, when one speaks in tongues, no one understandeth him. In Acts 2, we read that those present understood he disciples tspeaking in tongues in their own languages. But this apparently wasn't the norm. There is no reference to those present understanding speaking in tongues in Acts 10 or 19. And in I Corinthians 14, in the context of church meetings, Paul points out 'no man understandeth him.' Other people did not understand speaking in tongues.
Speaking in tongues edifieds the speaker. It neededs to be interpreted, through a gift of the Spirit, to edify other people. The speaker, generally, does not understand what he says. Paul said if he prayed in a tongue, his spirit prayed, but his understanding is not fruitful.
Nothing in this passage would indicate that tongues are 'vain.' The do edify the speaker, and the previous reference to edify in the epistle, in chapter 6, does seem to indicate that self-edification can be a good thing. Since Paul said that all things were lawful for him, but not all things edified. Edification of the church through tongues and interpretation is a positive thing, not something negative or 'vain.'
VCO, what is the difference between the type of tongues Paul described in I Corinthians 14 and 'vain repetitions'?
annnnnd... there you go again. Honestly, I don't even know how to respond to you guys/girls. Could it possibly be that I have studied the scriptures pretty extensively, and have come to a different conclusion than you? That, just perhaps, I think YOU are wrong?
Because I don't believe he was talking about the gifts of the Spirit there... he was talking about how they all received the grace and forgiveness of God, and how they were enriched in speech and knowledge for the spreading of the word.
You can try to fit it to whatever you wish, but, in context, it says nothing of the gifts of the Spirit.
I'm not sure what you mean by "internal" evidence, but, yes, I believe that fits his flow of thought at least as well as any other. He could be speaking of the second coming of Christ, but he wasn't very specific about that, was he?
"That which is perfect" HAS come, and lived among us, and established his church. And, it seems that tongues were a sign to the unbelievers that the church was real, and it was the church of the Messiah... so once the church was established and flourishing, why was there a need for more "signs" ?
I can "prove" that through scripture as easily as you can "prove" that tongues still exist... but MY point is, that if they are still in existence, (which I tend to think they are) they should be used ONLY how we were instructed in the word.
This emphasis on the "importance" of speaking in tongues is at the very best, unscriptural.
Paul said, "it would be good if all of you did, but if not, no big deal"
Paul said, "don't pray for the ability to speak in tongues, pray for the ability to prophesy"
Paul said, "if anyone wants to speak in a tongue, if no one is there that can legitimately interpret... don't do it"
Paul said, "only two or three should do it in any assembly... IF there are any that want to"
Paul said, "it's the least desirable of the spiritual gifts"
Tell me how ANY of that fits with what you "tongue-speakers" are espousing.....
You all are saying "if you don't speak in tongues, somehow you are not as spiritually in-tune as I am"
You are saying, "if you don't put as much importance on it, or believe the way I do about it, you must be lacking in Biblical knowledge"
You are saying, "we all speak in tongues, or pray in tongues in our assemblies, whenever the Spirit moves us.."
You are saying, "if you don't pray in tongues, your prayers aren't as effective as mine"
the list could go on....
Well, it would definitely not be what Paul said to say ALL speak in tongues. He said the exact opposite. He said...what? Do ALL speak in tongues? Do ALL prophecy? etc.
Why don't you deal with the specifics? VCO seems to think tongues are false unless other people present understand them. I Corinthians says when someone speaks in tongues 'no man understandeth him.' That passage directly contradicts the view that VCO is promoting.
It is not wrong for me to point that out. It is not 'arrogant' for me to point that contradiction out. The contradiction is glaring enough for me to wonder whether he's even studied I Corinthians 14. I make the point that I do because of how he attacks this spiritual gift and those who have it, and the fact that he is teaching this through an online study he wrote, etc.
Not all ideas are equal. Not all interpretations of scripture are equal. Some interpretations of scripture are right, and some are wrong.
He says no spiritual gift. No charismata. He explains charismata later in the same epistle. Its a very reasonable interpretation to think that 'no spiritual gift' includes the very gifts he would address later in the epistle. No doubt, he knew when he wrote about charismata chapter 1 that he would address the problems with the charismata in chapters 12-14.
No it doesn't. Did the church reaching some stage of 'perfection' make Paul's speech, knowledge, and understanding suddengly leap from being childish to being grown-up? Your theory doesn't fit this part of the passage.
Also, in terms of history, when did the church suddenly become perfect? Around 100 AD or so, there were all kinds of problems with heresies. Also, historically, these gifts did not cease at 100 AD. Second century writings show a belief in the gift of prophecy. Justin Martyr, speaking with the Jew Trypho, told him that prophets were with the church, rather than with his people. Hermas goes into some detail on how the gift of prophecy functioned in church. Ireneaus, writing around 200 AD, write of tongues, prophesying, casting out demons, raising the dead, and foreknowledge being exercised by the brethren. He also wrote that rejecting prophesying was a characteristic of the heresies.
If you read Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History, you can see theme in the writings he collects against the Montanists. Christians who wrote against him affirmed their belief in the gift of prophecy, but did not believe he had the genuine gift. And after Montanus and his helpers Maximilla and Priscilla died, a Christian who debated a Montanist pointed out that Montanists believe prophecy ceased, but that prophecy was with the church, for the apostle wrote that prophecy would continue until the Lord returned. This was his interpretation of I Corinthians.
If we look at what Paul covers in chapter 13 compared to the rest of the book, we see
Chapter 13-- tongues, prophecy, the coming of the perfect
Ch. 14-15 -- tongues, prophecy, the state of the believer in the resurrection at the return of Christ, and the end.
Totally made up doctrine not taught in scripture at all. I'm referring to that last bit 'so once the church was established and flourishing, why was there a need for more "signs'? It is one cessationist view, but it doesn't make sense for a Protestant, who thinks doctrine was in horrible shape in 1517, to believe in it. If the church was perfect, what was all that about? Why was there a need for a Reformation of a perfected church with perfect understandign and doctrine.
Also, who are signs for in scripture? Do signs confirm the Bible to no one? Signs confirm the word preached to whatever audience is hearing it. We see in Acts that signs were done in one place to confirm the word. Then, after the word was confirmed to that audience, they were done again, either to partly the same audience, or to a different audience. We do not know how many times signs were done before the same audience in Jerusalem. But then Peter did miracles in Joppa.
Peter did not say to Aneaus, "You are not going to be healed as a sign, because I can tell you about the healings of lame people just like you in Jerusalem, which already confirmed the word. So me telling you about those miracles would perform the exact same function as if you were healed and were able to walk right now." Clearly, the effect of the lame man being healed in Lystra had a different effect than if Paul had just told the crowd about Peter healing in Jerusalem.
In some cases, I would agree with you. Some people overemphasize tongues or try to squeeze stuff out of the Bible about tongues that just isn't there.
Are you using The Message?
He did not say 'but if not, no big deal.' He said, 'but rather that ye prophesied.'He did not say to pray for either one (though I'm sure he'd have been fine with praying for these gifts, especially in regard to prophesying.). He doesn't say not to pray to speak in tongues. He says for the one who speaks in tongues to pray that he may interpret (I Corinthians 14:13.)
How important is it for you to actually stick with what the verses actually say?
If that's a Message style translation, it's one of the better ones in your list.
It doesn't say the want to part. Desire and giftedness aren't the same thing. I once read where a Greek professor presented his case for the idea that two or three refers to what is spoken rather than the number of speakers.
No, he didn't. He did list some gifts that started with 'first apostles' and speaking in tongues and interpretation were at the bottom of the list. Is interpretation below speaking in tongues? If not, it isn't completely a list ranked by how great the gifts are. It is not a complete list of all gifts, either, so we can't say it is the least of all gifts.
I believe we shoudl follow the order Paul teaches regarding speaking in tongues. I don't believe in all of the inaccurate quotes you gave above.
I agree that some Pentecostals and Charismatics overemphasize speaking in tongues, and that some use the gifts in a disorderly manner. But since these are gifts of the Spirit, I also believe it is wrong to villify them. We should be appreciative of God's grace, not derrogatory toward it.
I'm not saying that. There are a number of gifts.
If I saw a poster on here calling all Bible teachers demonic or fleshly by virtue of exercising the gift of teaching, or all people with the gift of administration (assuming I had the time, etc. to get involved in the conversation), I'd oppose that sort of thing as well.
No. But if I see someone contradicting the Bible while attacking a spiritual gift and those who exercise it, I may point out where they contradict the Bible.
No I'm not. If you'd read my posts, you would know I do not think like that.
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