Scriptures against the false pre-tribulation rapture doctrine
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they all have reality in history.
some of it applies right through to the Judgment, but it's clear if that's what it is.
any particular verses in mind?
the bible is still, even in the new testament, a story of jewish Israelites, including those who became the first Christians.
apostate Israel was the harlot, for example. and God judged her by fire (just as the law demands) in 70AD.
the beast she rode on was Imperial Rome/Jewish collaborators like the Herods.
Depends which beast you are discussing. The dreadful and terrible beast of Rev 7 is likely Rome. The Beast of the Sea in Rev 13 is most definitely ISLAMIC.
Correct about the legs in Dan 2, they are Rome, east and west. The Eastern Leg became the Ottoman Empire, which as we know, was ISLAMIC. They became the 7th head of the Beast of Rev 13. This head was mortally wounded (went away for a time) but is healed (returns) as we are seeing now.
She is absolutely brilliant!! I learned a lot from her. Have to work on her over this beast thing though
. Rome is dead and gone and is not coming back.I have a slightly different view, I think. Lk 21:36 is speaking of escaping the Wrath of God to come as we are not appointed to His wrath. The Great Trib (if that was what you were discussing as persecutions) applies only to Israel. Tribulation (small "t") applies to Believers in all ages and times. Both come before the wrath.
Israel will be faced with a massive Islamic invasion just before the Return of the Lord (about 6 weeks before) if we are to believe Dan 12:11.
CORRECT but that ended that chapter. If we look at the account in Isa 53 where they rejected their Messiah then turn to the next chapter, we see the compare and contrast that is also taught in Rev 12, the Women then in Rev 17, Mystery Babylon, the Harlot.
She is absolutely brilliant!! I learned a lot from her. Have to work on her over this beast thing though
Rome is back! It came back in 1929. (the Roman nation crawled out of the abyss at the 5th trumpet)
Rome now (Vatican) is only the image of the Roman Empire.
The only thing left for Rome to do is deceive the Kings of the East into killing Israel.
----
You are right about Islam destroying Israel,
But this is the end of Israel.
You are looking for a future/present beast and a 7 yr trib.,
But these are at their end.
We are at the very end of the Revelation where Magog surrounds Jerusalem.
When Israel dies this time, it is the end.
----
You are right about Jerusalem's fall to Islam,
But you are at the wrong place in the timeline of Rev.
Hi John,
Rome is a city and does not crawl out of the Abyss. The angel who is the king of those demonic beings, is the beast who once was, now is not and yet will come up out of the Abyss at the sounding of the 5th trumpet.
Regarding the above, that does not take place until the end of the thousand years, which hasn't started yet.
==> You are here
* The Lord appears and gathers His church
* Seven year covenant established
* The wrath of God (seals, trumpets and bowl judgments)
* Christ's return to the earth to end the age
* Millennial period
* Satan released from the Abyss at the end of the millennial period
* Gog and Magog assault
* Great white throne judgment
Brother Ahwatukee,
The Roman Empire died in 476 ad, which is; the sea beast, civil Rome.
The RCC continues to this day, which is; the image of the Roman Empire, the earth beast, Caesar worship, Caesar/the Bishop of Rome is the Holy Father.
(If the woman R ch 17 is the RCC, who is the "head " of the woman?)
Rome the sea beast (civil), was reunited with Rome the earth beast (religious), in 1929 when the Vatican became a nation again.
Rome restored, The beast that kills the 2 witnesses comes back from the Abyss.
Look what happened after that date.
The Roman nation comes out of the abyss, the Roman Empire, But still just an image of it's former self, (beast nation).
---
Satan is a spirit, a destroyer, a divider, a lair, a murderer, the accuser of Israel.
A spirit of no love at all for God's people, natural/wild branches.
This spirit is manifest in the Bishop of Rome,
He is Caesar,
He sits on the seat of the beast, (7 hills, the woman, R ch 17),
----
Satan is a SPIRIT, he is not material,
He is in a nation and the leader of that nation, (Caesar/RCC).
It is the SPIRIT in that leader and nation (iron legs, 4th beast Dan. 7, R 17)
That comes out of the abyss, to power again. 1929
The Pentecost Kingdom age is almost over.
When Jesus comes, it is the end, 1 Cor 15:23-28,23-24.
The OT saints (John the Baptist) rule the kingdom by their words, Behold the Lamb of God, the Bible.
Yes, there have been many heart breaking moments through the tribulation of almost 2000 yrs,
But the Pentecost Kingdom has had victory after victory also.
Victory over sin and death,
Victory over pain and physical sufferings,
Victory over doubt and fear,
Victory of the spirit over the flesh,
And the victory of God's love over those who have no love,
Changing hearts and minds for century after century,
For thousands of years.
Souls giving birth to faith by the preaching of the gospel.
Entering into the Pentecost Kingdom,
Hand in hand, together.
The kingdom has been here since Pentecost.
----------
------------
7 seals......Rejection of the Gospel through the completed Destruction of Jerusalem, 70 ad (Power scattered, Dan. 12)
1-4 trumps....God withdraws His blessings on the natural branches, in all 4 parts of creation (R 14:7). 70 ad - 1929.
5th trumpet.....1929, The beast NATION ROME, comes out of the abyss to attack Israel.
6th trumpet....The 4 GOOD angels, that are Holding Back (Restraining) the winds of destruction from blowing across the EUPHRATES RIVER towards the Holy Land to destroy Israel restored to Jerusalem, (2 witnesses in the city),
are told, R 9:14 loose the angels (from their orders that came from the angel with the seal of the living God, R 7:2).
The angels release the winds of destruction which are coming across the EUPHRATES RIVER (6th vial) to destroy Israel.
It is talking about destroying 1/3 of Israel R 9:15, the symbolism would be that they could not be complete again.
(Please understand the use of the symbolism associated with the 1/3 concept used in the Bible, yes?)
The 6th trumpet has blown, 9/11,
That is when the beginning of the drying up of the people and strength of the Euphrates River area (Iraq) was set in motion (G Bush),
------
Not long from now, Iran will attack Israel,
Iran will win.
3 1/2 days after they take Jerusalem,
The 7th/last trumpet, the resurrection, and then the end 1 Cor 15:23-28.
The Roman Empire died in 476 ad, which is; the sea beast, civil Rome.
The RCC continues to this day, which is; the image of the Roman Empire, the earth beast, Caesar worship, Caesar/the Bishop of Rome is the Holy Father.
(If the woman R ch 17 is the RCC, who is the "head " of the woman?)
Rome the sea beast (civil), was reunited with Rome the earth beast (religious), in 1929 when the Vatican became a nation again.
Rome restored, The beast that kills the 2 witnesses comes back from the Abyss.
Look what happened after that date.
The Roman nation comes out of the abyss, the Roman Empire, But still just an image of it's former self, (beast nation).
---
Satan is a spirit, a destroyer, a divider, a lair, a murderer, the accuser of Israel.
A spirit of no love at all for God's people, natural/wild branches.
This spirit is manifest in the Bishop of Rome,
He is Caesar,
He sits on the seat of the beast, (7 hills, the woman, R ch 17),
----
Satan is a SPIRIT, he is not material,
He is in a nation and the leader of that nation, (Caesar/RCC).
It is the SPIRIT in that leader and nation (iron legs, 4th beast Dan. 7, R 17)
That comes out of the abyss, to power again. 1929
The Pentecost Kingdom age is almost over.
When Jesus comes, it is the end, 1 Cor 15:23-28,23-24.
The OT saints (John the Baptist) rule the kingdom by their words, Behold the Lamb of God, the Bible.
Yes, there have been many heart breaking moments through the tribulation of almost 2000 yrs,
But the Pentecost Kingdom has had victory after victory also.
Victory over sin and death,
Victory over pain and physical sufferings,
Victory over doubt and fear,
Victory of the spirit over the flesh,
And the victory of God's love over those who have no love,
Changing hearts and minds for century after century,
For thousands of years.
Souls giving birth to faith by the preaching of the gospel.
Entering into the Pentecost Kingdom,
Hand in hand, together.
The kingdom has been here since Pentecost.
----------
------------
7 seals......Rejection of the Gospel through the completed Destruction of Jerusalem, 70 ad (Power scattered, Dan. 12)
1-4 trumps....God withdraws His blessings on the natural branches, in all 4 parts of creation (R 14:7). 70 ad - 1929.
5th trumpet.....1929, The beast NATION ROME, comes out of the abyss to attack Israel.
6th trumpet....The 4 GOOD angels, that are Holding Back (Restraining) the winds of destruction from blowing across the EUPHRATES RIVER towards the Holy Land to destroy Israel restored to Jerusalem, (2 witnesses in the city),
are told, R 9:14 loose the angels (from their orders that came from the angel with the seal of the living God, R 7:2).
The angels release the winds of destruction which are coming across the EUPHRATES RIVER (6th vial) to destroy Israel.
It is talking about destroying 1/3 of Israel R 9:15, the symbolism would be that they could not be complete again.
(Please understand the use of the symbolism associated with the 1/3 concept used in the Bible, yes?)
The 6th trumpet has blown, 9/11,
That is when the beginning of the drying up of the people and strength of the Euphrates River area (Iraq) was set in motion (G Bush),
------
Not long from now, Iran will attack Israel,
Iran will win.
3 1/2 days after they take Jerusalem,
The 7th/last trumpet, the resurrection, and then the end 1 Cor 15:23-28.
When were you last in Rome? Italy is not coming back. Roman Catholic priests are not going to be running around with machetes chopping off the heads of those who won't convert. Nothing says Rome comes back. Instead, go with the false religion which is bigger and which is already chopping off heads of Christians and vowed to wipe out Israel. That would be the smarter play.
The Great Tribulation of Israel begins when the Abomination of Desolation is set up at the Wailing Wall. It ends < 45 days later.
Not quite but getting close.
Below is the actual, literal, angel, also referred to as the beast who comes up out of the Abyss:
"The locusts looked like horses prepared for battle. On their heads they wore something like crowns of gold, and their faces resembled human faces. Their hair was like women’s hair, and their teeth were like lions’ teeth. They had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the thundering of many horses and chariots rushing into battle. They had tails with stingers, like scorpions, and in their tails they had power to torment people for five months. They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon and in Greek is Apollyon (that is, Destroyer).
Regarding the above, a star, which is figurative for an angel, falls to the earth and has the key to the Abyss, which is a literal place under the earth. He opens it and out of the Abyss comes literal demonic beings that have the base appearance of locusts with tails and stings like scorpions. These are literal beings that are going to come up out of the Abyss. Their king, which is that angel of the Abyss, is that beast who once was, now is not and yet will come. That angel in the Abyss is not Satan, but is another fallen angel who will be the power behind the antichrist.
John, I say this in all truthfulness, that you have no idea what the book of Revelation is about and therefore should not be teaching it. Everything that you have proclaimed is a misapplication of scripture and much of what you are saying makes no sense whatsoever.
The Ottoman Empire was the 7th in a complete and unbroken succession of Beast Kingdoms all of which worshiped the same idol symbol, in one form or another. That symbol is the star and moon. The symbol was present in Egypt, the first beast all the way to the Ottoman Empire and current symbol of Islam. This symbol existed on the golden calf.
Here is a picture I took of an actual idol from Egypt from the Louvre last year. The horns form the shape of a crescent moon with the star (sun) in the middle.
Here is the familiar symbol of Islam:
This is the symbol Satan wants his people to use to worship him. God gave this specific command as His first and most important:
Ex 20: [SUP]4 [/SUP]“You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above... For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God...
Islam's calendar is based on the lunar cycle. Their time to pray is based on the position of the sun. You see, ISLAM is the Anti Christian religion. They don't recognize the Son of God. They teach "kill enemies," we teach "love thine enemies."
I could go on and on. The Ottoman Empire defeated the Eastern Roman empire at Constantinople in 1299 AD. This ended Rome (the 6th beast) and passed it on to the Ottomans. The Ottoman's died in 1922 but they came back in 2014. We are 2+ years into the 42 months of Rev 13.
ISLAM is the Sea, not Rome. Their numbers are like the sands of the sea but more importantly, they are a wild bunch, at unrest, at war with themselves and everyone else just as we were told they would be in Gen 16. You see, ISLAM goes all the way back to Abraham, Ishmael's father.
“Behold, you are with child, And you shall bear a son. You shall call his name Ishmael, Because the Lord has heard your affliction. [SUP]12 [/SUP]He shall be a wild man; His hand shall be against every man, And every man’s hand against him.
Wow, what an accurate prophesy that was!! Ishmael (ISLAM) and Israel have been at odds forever. Islam is like the sea, like raging waves, as Luke tells us. Nothing has changed.
Here is a picture I took of an actual idol from Egypt from the Louvre last year. The horns form the shape of a crescent moon with the star (sun) in the middle.
Here is the familiar symbol of Islam:
This is the symbol Satan wants his people to use to worship him. God gave this specific command as His first and most important:
Ex 20: [SUP]4 [/SUP]“You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above... For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God...
Islam's calendar is based on the lunar cycle. Their time to pray is based on the position of the sun. You see, ISLAM is the Anti Christian religion. They don't recognize the Son of God. They teach "kill enemies," we teach "love thine enemies."
I could go on and on. The Ottoman Empire defeated the Eastern Roman empire at Constantinople in 1299 AD. This ended Rome (the 6th beast) and passed it on to the Ottomans. The Ottoman's died in 1922 but they came back in 2014. We are 2+ years into the 42 months of Rev 13.
ISLAM is the Sea, not Rome. Their numbers are like the sands of the sea but more importantly, they are a wild bunch, at unrest, at war with themselves and everyone else just as we were told they would be in Gen 16. You see, ISLAM goes all the way back to Abraham, Ishmael's father.
“Behold, you are with child, And you shall bear a son. You shall call his name Ishmael, Because the Lord has heard your affliction. [SUP]12 [/SUP]He shall be a wild man; His hand shall be against every man, And every man’s hand against him.
Wow, what an accurate prophesy that was!! Ishmael (ISLAM) and Israel have been at odds forever. Islam is like the sea, like raging waves, as Luke tells us. Nothing has changed.
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The only two resurrections of people, by the millions, in the Bible, recorded in Rev.20:4 and 5. The second and final general resurrection is at the GWTJ recorded in Rev.20:11-15.
Quasar92
The above is the basis and foundation of your obsession with Islam, PW. You finally made the proper ID of the enemies of Israel. Islam is an accessory after the fact, since they are all basically out of the tribes of their forefather, Ishmael, his mother, Hagar, Abraham's surrogate wife. They will undoubtedly formulate the armies of the ten horns/nations, who will be allied to the two beasts, the Antichrist and the False Prophet.
Quasar92
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I said this is where it started. The proof is much deeper than that Q. Why do you suppose God said this about Esau?
Romans 9:13
As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”
Why did God hate Esau? The answer is here:
Hebrews 12:16
lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright.
What was Esau's birthright as first born of Isaac? What should Esau have received that instead went to Jacob?
Answer: To be the Father of God's chosen people. By birthright, Esau, not Jacob, should have been Israel. What did Esau then do?
Genesis 28:9
So Esau went to Ishmael and took Mahalath the daughter of Ishmael, Abraham’s son, the sister of Nebajoth, to be his wife in addition to the wives he had.
That's right, he married into Ishmael's line and became the Son-in-law of Ishmael.
Q,
Do you know where the first mention of "idol" is the in the Bible?
Genesis 31:19
Now Laban had gone to shear his sheep, and Rachel had stolen the household idols that were her father’s.
This isn't the first time Idol worship took place, but it is the first time the word "idol" appears. Where was Laban from?
Genesis 31:20
And Jacob stole away, unknown to Laban the Syrian, in that he did not tell him that he intended to flee.
That's right, Laban was a Syrian. How about Hagar, Ishmael's mother?
Genesis 16:1
Now Sarai, Abram’s wife, had borne him no children. And she had an Egyptian maidservant whose name was Hagar.
That's right, she was Egyptian.
The first place Israel was enslaved and where they learned idol worship was of course, Egypt. So Isaac married Rebekah the sister of Laban, the Syrian. What is the majority faith of those in Syria and Egypt today? Thus the entanglement (or connection) between today's Muslims and Jews goes way back. It goes back even further than this, to Nimrod and Babel and even further back but I don't want to get too deep into the weeds. Where is the ancient city, Nimrud? It's right next to Mosul, Iraq.
The point of all of this is there are two dominant religions in the world today, right?
Christianity - 1/3 of the world
Islam - 1/4 of the world
We really don't need to look any further than this to know what false religion John called "Mystery Babylon." It was a mystery to a first century man because the religion didn't exist then, but it should be no mystery to us.
Nearly 60% of the world's religions fall into these two buckets with both tracing their spiritual roots back to Abraham. The jealousy of Islam is that they want to lay claim to Abraham AND the blessings of Isaac. They believe Isaac stole Esau's blessing and that they are the true Chosen of God. I know, I talk to Muslims all the time. I've been all over the middle east.
This is why I am "obsessed" with Islam, not because I want to be, but because I understand the history and connections. Spiritually, the two faiths share the same father - Abraham. This is why I have to laugh when someone suggests Rome will come back and persecute Israel and cause the Great Tribulation. Rome had its time as the beast. Rome isn't even from the right genealogy. Rome is a Christian nation, they have no animus towards Israel.
As bad as Rome was, in the history of the entire Roman empire they killed roughly 13 million people, this according to Necometrics. This body count is nothing compared to what the Ottoman Empire did. They killed approx 50 million Christians, including 1.5 to 3 million Armenian Christians in 1915-1916 alone. The Ottoman Turks were way worse than the Roman Empire was and for the Ottoman's they killed over religion where Rome killed primarily over territory (and for fun).
Bottom line is this, a study of the identity of the procrastinators of Israel throughout time such as Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medes, Persians, Ottomans and even Greeks to some extent all share a common religion today - ISLAM. The identities of those who wage war with Israel at the end, Libya, Persia, Somalia, Ethiopia are all ISLAMIC. Gog and the King from the far north is probably Russia. Guess who Russia is friends with today?
Do you know where the first mention of "idol" is the in the Bible?
Genesis 31:19
Now Laban had gone to shear his sheep, and Rachel had stolen the household idols that were her father’s.
This isn't the first time Idol worship took place, but it is the first time the word "idol" appears. Where was Laban from?
Genesis 31:20
And Jacob stole away, unknown to Laban the Syrian, in that he did not tell him that he intended to flee.
That's right, Laban was a Syrian. How about Hagar, Ishmael's mother?
Genesis 16:1
Now Sarai, Abram’s wife, had borne him no children. And she had an Egyptian maidservant whose name was Hagar.
That's right, she was Egyptian.
The first place Israel was enslaved and where they learned idol worship was of course, Egypt. So Isaac married Rebekah the sister of Laban, the Syrian. What is the majority faith of those in Syria and Egypt today? Thus the entanglement (or connection) between today's Muslims and Jews goes way back. It goes back even further than this, to Nimrod and Babel and even further back but I don't want to get too deep into the weeds. Where is the ancient city, Nimrud? It's right next to Mosul, Iraq.
The point of all of this is there are two dominant religions in the world today, right?
Christianity - 1/3 of the world
Islam - 1/4 of the world
We really don't need to look any further than this to know what false religion John called "Mystery Babylon." It was a mystery to a first century man because the religion didn't exist then, but it should be no mystery to us.
Nearly 60% of the world's religions fall into these two buckets with both tracing their spiritual roots back to Abraham. The jealousy of Islam is that they want to lay claim to Abraham AND the blessings of Isaac. They believe Isaac stole Esau's blessing and that they are the true Chosen of God. I know, I talk to Muslims all the time. I've been all over the middle east.
This is why I am "obsessed" with Islam, not because I want to be, but because I understand the history and connections. Spiritually, the two faiths share the same father - Abraham. This is why I have to laugh when someone suggests Rome will come back and persecute Israel and cause the Great Tribulation. Rome had its time as the beast. Rome isn't even from the right genealogy. Rome is a Christian nation, they have no animus towards Israel.
As bad as Rome was, in the history of the entire Roman empire they killed roughly 13 million people, this according to Necometrics. This body count is nothing compared to what the Ottoman Empire did. They killed approx 50 million Christians, including 1.5 to 3 million Armenian Christians in 1915-1916 alone. The Ottoman Turks were way worse than the Roman Empire was and for the Ottoman's they killed over religion where Rome killed primarily over territory (and for fun).
Bottom line is this, a study of the identity of the procrastinators of Israel throughout time such as Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medes, Persians, Ottomans and even Greeks to some extent all share a common religion today - ISLAM. The identities of those who wage war with Israel at the end, Libya, Persia, Somalia, Ethiopia are all ISLAMIC. Gog and the King from the far north is probably Russia. Guess who Russia is friends with today?
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Zone doesn't see Islam as an issue in Eschatology. They are not named, but they are referenced constantly.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]‘Thus says the Lord God: “When I have gathered the house of Israel from the peoples among whom they are scattered, and am hallowed in them in the sight of the Gentiles, then they will dwell in their own land which I gave to My servant Jacob. [SUP]26 [/SUP]And they will dwell safely there, build houses, and plant vineyards; yes, they will dwell securely, when I execute judgments on all those around them who despise them. Then they shall know that I am the Lord their God.”’”
Who are those around Israel who despise them? Israel is an island in a sea of Muslims. What does Zechariah say? It's the last sentence he utters.
In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts.
Who are the Canaanites today? Where do they live? What is their faith?
Then if we look at Isaiah 54 we see Muslims contrasted with Jews.
“Sing, O barren, You who have not borne! Break forth into singing, and cry aloud, You who have not labored with child! For more are the children of the desolate Than the children of the married woman,” says the Lord.
Israel is the barren Woman who has a husband - GOD. The desolate in the above must be Muslims. Why? They have way more children, like 1.5 billion more in today's numbers. Also, they have no husband. Hagar was not married. She was a slave. What do you call an unmarried woman who sleeps with a man back then? How about "harlot?"
Paul reiterates this message in Gal 4 then says this:
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. [SUP]29 [/SUP]But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. [SUP]30 [/SUP]Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.”
Who is the Bondwoman and her son? Hagar and Ishmael, right? Do I need to go on? I can.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]‘Thus says the Lord God: “When I have gathered the house of Israel from the peoples among whom they are scattered, and am hallowed in them in the sight of the Gentiles, then they will dwell in their own land which I gave to My servant Jacob. [SUP]26 [/SUP]And they will dwell safely there, build houses, and plant vineyards; yes, they will dwell securely, when I execute judgments on all those around them who despise them. Then they shall know that I am the Lord their God.”’”
Who are those around Israel who despise them? Israel is an island in a sea of Muslims. What does Zechariah say? It's the last sentence he utters.
In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts.
Who are the Canaanites today? Where do they live? What is their faith?
Then if we look at Isaiah 54 we see Muslims contrasted with Jews.
“Sing, O barren, You who have not borne! Break forth into singing, and cry aloud, You who have not labored with child! For more are the children of the desolate Than the children of the married woman,” says the Lord.
Israel is the barren Woman who has a husband - GOD. The desolate in the above must be Muslims. Why? They have way more children, like 1.5 billion more in today's numbers. Also, they have no husband. Hagar was not married. She was a slave. What do you call an unmarried woman who sleeps with a man back then? How about "harlot?"
Paul reiterates this message in Gal 4 then says this:
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. [SUP]29 [/SUP]But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. [SUP]30 [/SUP]Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.”
Who is the Bondwoman and her son? Hagar and Ishmael, right? Do I need to go on? I can.