Scriptures against the false pre-tribulation rapture doctrine

popeye · Oct 30, 2016

It clearly says all refusing the mark die.

As for overcome. That refers to overcoming temptation.

In the context of the AC, an overcomer is one who chose martyrdom over the mark.

" ...and they overcame by the blood of the lamb,and the WORD OF THEIR TESTIMONY,and they loved not THEIR LIVES UNTO DEATH..."

How do you guys miss that???

It is like heaven went to a lot of trouble to carefully word that.

popeye · Oct 30, 2016

BTW,Where are the scriptures against the true pretrib rapture?

Any takers?

Maybe just post one verse?

bluto · Oct 30, 2016

popeye said:

There all over the place popeye and especially in Matthew 24. Vs3, "When is your coming and the end of the age Jesus? Well guys, I am telling you that when it comes make sure you head for the mountains and it is not in the winter or on the Sabbath, vs20. In fact fellas, it will be so bad that even the elect (those that are Christians) the time will be shortened for their sake. vs22.

But don't worry guys, I have a plan "B" in place for popeye and his friends because I have made early dinner reservations so we won't be there.

Instead, we will be enjoying ourselves while the anti-christ will be raising hell on are other brothers and sisters, and I assure you, their dinner will be kept warm when they do arrive seven years later?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

masmpg · Oct 30, 2016

popeye said:

M'r:13:24: But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
M'r:13:25: And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
M'r:13:26: And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
M'r:13:27: And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Where is any scripture, in context, to support the pre-trib rapture? Just one verse?

Ahwatukee · Oct 30, 2016

masmpg said:

Hello masmpg,

When interpreting end-time events, it is critical to recognize that the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the aged, as being two separate events. That said, all of the scripture that you have quoted above is in reference to when Christ returns to the earth to end the age and has nothing to do with the gathering of the church, which will have take place several years prior to the event above.

The Gathering of the church (rapture)

* Is imminent

* The Lord descends from heaven saying "come up here."

* The dead in Christ rise first, then believers who are still alive will be changed and caught up

* The Lord takes the entire church back to the Father's house as promised in John 14:1-3

The Second Coming of the Lord

* The antichrist must make his seven year covenant with Israel first

* The abomination must be set up in the holy place within the temple

* Israel must flee out into the desert and will be cared for during that last 3 1/2 years

* The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments must be completed

bluto · Oct 31, 2016

Ahwatukee said:

Here again ahwatukee you and other pre-tribers are "making up" and inserting the so-called rapture according to verses you "think" is the rapture of the church. Look again at 1 Thessalonians 4:4 and read it carefully. "even so God/Jesus Christ will bring with Him, those who have fallen asleep in Jesus."

This event is one continueous action. In other words, the Lord Jesus brings the saints who have died in Him first or with Him and then we who are alive meet the Lord in the air and then we continue back down to earth. Remember this all happens in a blink of an eye. The Lord does bring the saints down with Him and then the Lord turns around and goes back up to heaven with us as we who are alive meet Him in the air. Again, it is one continueous action.

Now, look at Jude 1:14,15 "And about these also Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, PROPHESIED, saying, "Behod the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones. vs15, to execute judgment upon ALL, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."

Then there is Zechariah 14:5, "And yo will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will fless just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. THEN THE LORD MY GOD, WILL COME, AND ALL THE HOLY ONES WITH HIM." Please read the rest of the verses as they speak to the day of the Lord and at vs9 the Lord will be king over all the earth;"

Lastly, at Revelation 20 you will notice starting at vs4 the time frame is the great tribulation and at vs5, "The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION." So to recap when the Lord comes He does not turn around with the dead saints with Him and go back to heaven, He continues to the earth.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Quasar92 · Oct 31, 2016

bluto said:

That is not what the Scriptures are saying. bluto:

1 Thess.4:15 "According to the Lord's word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep."

And the Lord's own words were: in Jn.14:1-4: “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me.2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”

Jn.14:28 "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater" than I.

THERE IS NO RETURN TO THE EARTH WHEN THE ABOVE EVENT TAKES PLACE. There is only ONE second coming to the earth, which is near the end of the seven year tribulation, as recorded in Rev.19:11-21, as well as in Zech.14:4-5; Jude 14; Mt.24:30, Mk.13:26; and Lk.21:27. Where you will find the Church returning WITH Jesus from their marriage in heaven, recorded in Rev.19:7-8, where they have been since BEFORE the seven year tribulation begins, in verse 14, as follows:

Rev.19:14 "The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean."

THE TIMING OF THE RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH:

2 Thess.2:1 is the theme of the entire passage from verse 1 through 8, which is about a RAPTURE, not a falling away, as the context clearly defines:

2 Thess.2:1 "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,"

Which is a direct reference to 1 Thess.4:17:

1 Thess.4:17:

1 Thess.4:17 "After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever."

The original translation of 2 Thess.2:3:

"Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the DEPARTURE [taken out of the way in verse 7] occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction."

Verse 3 confirmed as pre-trib in verses 7-8:

7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. [departure in verse 3]8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

TRANSLATION HISTORY OF 2 Thess.2:3:

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.

The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

Quasar92

masmpg · Oct 31, 2016

Ahwatukee said:

Hello masmpg,

When interpreting end-time events, it is critical to recognize that the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the aged, as being two separate events. That said, all of the scripture that you have quoted above is in reference to when Christ returns to the earth to end the age and has nothing to do with the gathering of the church, which will have take place several years prior to the event above.

The Gathering of the church (rapture)

* Is imminent

* The Lord descends from heaven saying "come up here."

* The dead in Christ rise first, then believers who are still alive will be changed and caught up

* The Lord takes the entire church back to the Father's house as promised in John 14:1-3

The Second Coming of the Lord

* The antichrist must make his seven year covenant with Israel first

* The abomination must be set up in the holy place within the temple

* Israel must flee out into the desert and will be cared for during that last 3 1/2 years

* The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments must be completed

I gave a bible verse like you asked, but you did not supply any like I asked. Please supply biblical support for your comments.

Ahwatukee · Oct 31, 2016

You are correct Bluto in that, those who have died in Christ, their spirit/souls will return with Jesus in the air and their bodies will be resurrected. Immediately after that, the living believers will be changed into their immortal and glorified bodies and will be caught up with those who will have previously resurrected. But where are you coming to the conclusion that, after the whole group is caught up, that they immediately return to the earth? You are guessing at it and I say that because, there is nothing in the context that would infer that they return to the earth.

In contrast, we do have scripture that states that the Lord is coming back to receive all believers and to take them back to the Father's house to those rooms that the Lord prepared for us.

"Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God ; believe also in me. My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going.”

When Jesus ascended, He went to the Father's house, which would be heaven. He went there to prepare dwelling places for believers. Then He says that He's coming back to take us to the Father's house, that where He is we may be also. This is his promise and the actual event is found in 1 Thes.4:13-17 and 1 Cor.15:51-53. On the other hand, you have zero scriptures stating that once believers are caught up in air, that they immediately return to the earth. Your claim is pure conjecture.

Rev.19:11-21 also demonstrates that those who will have been previously resurrected and caught up will be following Christ out of heaven riding on white horses and wearing fine linen, white and clean, which the bride/church is seen receiving in Rev.19:6-8. Those who will be with Christ as he returns to the earth are also referred to as his called, chosen and faithful followers, as recorded in Rev.17:14.

The above is a false conclusion and here is why: the great tribulation will have been completed when Christ returns to the earth to end the age, which is what is taking place in Rev.19:11-21. Rev.20 is after the great tribulation has been completed, which is when the 7th bowl is poured out. Regarding the first resurrection, you are interpreting it incorrectly. The first resurrection are those who come to life in Rev.20:4-6. Where those who come to live at the end of the thousand years, are the unrighteous dead. This group does not belong to the first resurrection. This is the proper meaning behind that scripture:

"And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. Theyhad not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years."

If you will notice, this rendering has the rest of the dead, the ones who come to life at the end of the thousand years in parentheses. It is those in Rev.20:4-6 who come to live who belong to the first resurrection. Those at the end of the thousand years don't take part in the first resurrection because this group will be all of the unrighteous throughout all history who died in their sins. Simply put, the resurrection at the end of the thousand years is a bad resurrection. One would not want to be apart of that resurrection. The second death has power over those who are resurrected at the end of the thousand years. Where those who take part in the first resurrection, of which there are stages to, the second death will have no power over them.

First resurrection = Blessing

Resurrection at the end of the thousand years = Condemnation

bluto · Oct 31, 2016

Your "assuming" quasar? You just said, "THE TIMING OF THE RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH:" How do you know this is the timing of the rapture of the church unless you first "assume" it is? You quoted 1 Thessalonians 4:17 but notice it says, "and thus we shall always be with the Lord." It does "NOT" say we shall always be with the Lord in heaven having the Lambs supper, now does it quasar?

And look at 2 Thessalonians 2:3 where it says, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction." Like I said from Matthew 24 the disciples ask when is the end of the age? Then Jesus explains at vs15 it will not come until the Abomination of Desolation is revealed. Does Jesus say, we won't be here? No! He says run, don't walk to the nearest mountain. Then at vs29, BUT IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION what is going to happen quasar?

And 2 Thessalonians chapter 2 backs up what Jesus said to the letter. The restrainer, (the Holy Spirit) is taken out of the way and then what happens next quasar? Vs8, "And then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming."

If we follow your scenario we will be having dinner and then the Lord says, "Ok saints, it's time for you to come with Me while I slay the man of lawlessness and gather the saints that are still alive?

Bottom line, you don't know the timing of the second coming, notice I did not say "rapture" and neither do I precisely know when Jesus will come. However, He did give some hints as to what we are to look for in the last days.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Quasar92 · Oct 31, 2016

bluto said:

If you find what you call assumptions in the following, either prove it Scripturally, or the views you have are the ones that are assumptive!

Beginning with Mt.24:31:
[/B] And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His ELECT from the four winds [Israel - on earth], from one end of the heavens to the other [The Church Jesus will rapture before the seven year tribulation begins]. How did those ELECT get into heaven? Read on to find out.

Lk.21:36:
"Watch ye, therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man."

Jn.14:2-4 and 28:
"In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you [See Jn.20:17]. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going." [Jn.14:2-4].

"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." [Jn.14:28].

The Scriptures tell us where we all go, who belong to Christ, after the death of our bodies:
"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." As recorded in 2 Cor.5:8, confirming Ecc.12:7. Which is, in and of itself, conclusive to the fact that Jesus is not going to let the rest of His Church remain on earth to go through the seven year tribulation, when He returns for those of us who are still alive, waiting for His appearing, in 1 Thes.4:17. Since He raises all those who have died, to be with Him, immediately after their physical death, for more than 2,000 years.

A look at 1 Thes.4:13-18:
The Thessalonians were very concerned about those among them who had died, that they would not be gathered together with the rest of them when Jesus returned. Paul assures them in vs 13-14 that they will all be returning with Christ from heaven, where they have been since He raised them up to be with Him, the day they died physically, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8.

"We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him [Died physically]. Vs 14.

"According to the Lord's own word [Scriptural truth as to the fact that Jesus taught there was to be a pre-trib rapture of the Church, as recorded in Jn.14:2-4 and 28], we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep." Vs 15. An assurance by Paul to the Thessalonians that the dead in Christ had already been raised from the dead before, and were already with Christ when He returns for all those left on earth alive at His coming.

Because they have already been raised, each in his/her own turn, according to 1 Cor.15:23. That is the very reason it is not documented as a resurrection in the Scriptures.

"For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven [With all His saints [Church], according to vs 14], with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first" [Paul again assures them, as seen in verses 13-14, they were already previously raised once before, each in his/her own turn, as they died, for more than 2,000 years]. Vs 16.

"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be CAUGHT UP [raptured] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the sky. And so we will be with the Lord forever." Vs 17. Where we proceed with Jesus to our Father in heaven as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28.

"Therefore encourage each other with these words." Vs 18.

2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].

The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

In vs 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

From: http://www.raptureready.com/featured...onians2_3.html

"He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thes.2:4.

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In vs 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:

In vs 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

The antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thes.2:3, 4 and 8.

From the above Scriptural facts, there can be only one proper interpretation for the timing of the rapture of the Church, which will be immediately preceding the 70th and final/7 year tribulation, triggered by the antichrist, all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27. Seen also as the first of the four horsemen of the apocalypse, riding the white horse, in the first of the seven seals, in Rev.6:2. There is no "pre-wrath" or post-trib rapture taught in the Scriptures.

Other verses pertaining to the rapture of the Church: 1 Thes.1:10; 1 Thes.5:9; Rev.3:10 and Rev.4:1-2. Of the saints [Church] returning with Christ from their marriage in heaven, in Rev.19:7, 8 and 14; Jude 14 and Zech.14:4-5!

The difference between the Second Coming of Christ and the pre-trib rapture of the Church:

http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice...eenTheRapt.pdf

Quasar92

Quasar92 · Oct 31, 2016

The chronological order of end times events as outlined in the Bible:

1. The very next prophetic event to take place will be the rapture of the Church, consisting of everyone who believes in Jesus Christ as Lord, regardless of denomination, or no denomination at all, as taught by both Jesus as well as the apostle Paul. In Jn.14:2-4, 28; 1 Thes.4:13-18; 2 Thes.2:1-8; Rev.3:10 and 4:1-2. All those who died in Christ, to all those who are still alive at His coming in the clouds of the sky, for His Church, where we will all meet Jesus, from where He will take us to our Father in heaven, as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28.

2. The rapture of the Christian Church of Jesus Christ preceeds the revealing of the man of lawlessness/beast/antichrist, according to 2 Thes.2:3-4 and 7-8. Which then immediately sets off the seven years of tribulation, as recorded in Mt.24:4-31, Jesus amplification of Dan.9:27. Where the person who is all three of the "he's" in that verse, and the rider of the white horse in Rev.6:2, is revealed. All of whom are the antichrist. It is at this stage of end times chronology the 70th Week of Dan.9:27 will begin.

3. The tribulation is revealed in Jer.30:4-7, referred to as "Jacob's Trouble," and in Dan.9:27, the 70th and final week of God's decree upon the destiny of Israel. In God's revelation to the prophet Daniel, through the angel Gabriel, the 70 "Weeks" [7 years each] of years He has decreed upon the entire destiny of Israel. From the end of their 70 year exile, through the coming seven year tribulation. The person who will set it of is the antichrist, the "he" who will establish a seven year covenant/agreement with them. Dan.9:27.

Jesus amplified and confirmed Daniel's 70th and final "Week," consisting of the abomination that causes desolation, in Mt.24:15 and 21, and in the counterparts of Mk.13 and in Lk.21.

4. The fig trees have sprouted leaves, we can see for ourselves and know that summer is near. Lk.21:29. Which began with the new nation of Israel, when it was reestablished on May 14, 1948.

5. The Christian Church of Jesus Christ is called up into heaven, symbolically illustrated by the apostle John in Rev.4:1-2, confirming 2 Thes.2:3 and 7-8. As prophecied in Jn.14:2-4, 28 and 1 Thes.4:16-17, while Israel and all non-believers will go through the seven year tribulation. The Church is seen again at their marriage of the Lamb [Jesus Christ] to His Bride [The Church] in heaven, recorded in Rev.19:7-9, while the tribulation is taking place on earth.

6. Jesus will return, seven ears later, with His Church, following Him on white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, which stands for the righteous acts of the saints [Verse 8 NIV]. In His Second Coming to the earth, with His angels, in His armies from heaven, in Zech.14:4-5, Mt.24:31, Jude 14, and Rev.19:14.

7. Jesus will fight the battle of Armageddon, with His armies from heaven and end it, recorded in Rev.19:11-21. And save the remnant of Israel, who then recognize Him as their Messiah, recorded in Zech.12:10, and "all Israel will be saved," recorded in Rom.11:26...

8. The antichrist and the false prophet will be thrown into the lake of fire, and the armies of the ten horns [nations] are destroyed. Rev19:17-21. Jesus prophecy in Jn.10:16 will then be fulfilled, when there will be one fold [Israel and His Church] and one Shepherd. It is at this stage of end times chronology the 70 Weeks prophecy in Dan.9:27 will end.
9..Satan is caught and thrown into the Abyss for the same 1,000 years that Jesus will reign, in His kingdom here on the earth. Rev.20:6, confirming Mt.6:9-13; Zech.6:12-13, described in Ez.40-47; Acts 1:6; 2:29-30 and 15:16.

10. The first resurrection takes place which consists of all those brought to the Lord during the tribulation by the 144,000 Israelite evangelists. They will be martyred during the tribulation, by the two beasts, the antichrist, the false prophet and the ten horns [nations] allied to them. Those who are brought to Christ by the 144,000 Israelite evangelists, in the absence of the departed Church during the tribulation, do not belong to the Christian Church [who will be raptured before the seven year tribulation begins, as addressed above]. They will be made priests of God and of Christ, and rule with Him for 1,000 years, after their resurrection, according to Rev.20:4 and 6. They will be beheaded and pay with their lives for their testimony of Jesus, by the two beasts, the antichrist, the false prophet and the ten horns [nations] allied to them..

11. The Millennial Kingdom of Christ will consist of the one body of Christ, His Church, all those who survived the tribulation, besides the resurrected martyrs, and the remnant of Israel. In numbers alone, from an estimated original 7 billion people, there will only be 2.3 billion remaining , of those who had to go through the tribulation, recorded in Zech.13:8. Life expectancy will be greatly increased. Isa.65:20 and 11:6-9.

12. Jesus 1,000 year kingdom will begin at this point, according to Rev.20:6, here on the earth, on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, confirming Acts 1:6; 2:29-30 and 15:16. At the same time the 1,000 years Satan will be in the Abyss, according to Rev.20:1-3. Jesus prophecy in Jn.10:16 will then be fulfilled, when there will be one fold, Israel and the Church, with one Shepherd. When Jesus Millennial kingdom has ended, 1,000 years later, at the Great White Throne judgment, recorded in Rev.20:11-15. Satan will be released and go out to deceive the people and nations again in his last rebellion against God and gather a huge army who come against God's people, surrounding Jerusalem. But God will send fire and sulfur down from heaven, as He did at Sodom and Gomorrah, destroying them all, and throwing Satan into the lake of fire, forever, in Rev.20:7-10.

13. The second resurrection takes place according to Rev.20:5, that consists of all those who will be saved during the Millennial reign of Jesus here on the earth, as well as the Godless and wicked, at the Great White Throne Judgment, set up to judge them, right here on earth. The sea, death and Hades all give up their dead and will then be thrown into the lake of fire. Meaning, that all who were in the 'temporal holding tanks' of Sheol, Hades and Hell will be removed to face judgment, along with death itself, disposed of forever. For all those who participate in the second resurrection, if their name is not found in the book of life, will be thrown into the lake of fire forever. Rev.20:11-15, and Dan.12:2 and Mt.25:46 will be fulfilled.

14. The old heaven and earth will pass away, recorded in Rev.21:1 [Destroyed by fire according to 2 Pet.3:7] and God will provide an all new heaven and earth, and the new eternal city of Jerusalem will descend from heaven, 1,500 miles long and as wide as it is long and as high as it is wide, Rev.21:1-16.
15. The rest of chapters 21 and 22 allude to a description of the coming eternal city and life of all believers who will be with the Lord forever.

Quasar02

Quasar92 · Nov 1, 2016

[/QUOTE]

You are saying that 1 Thess.4:16 is a resurrection, when that is not what Paul was saying. Many expositors believe so, but it isn't. Here are the reasons why:

1 Thess.4:16 "For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first."

This is the fourth verse, 13, 14, 15 and 16, in which Paul ASSURES the Thessalonians, their dead in Christ will not miss the rapture of the Church.

Because they have all RISEN previously, once before, each in his/her own turn when they died physically. They were immediately RAISED to heaven by Jesus, in glorified immortal bodies, as recorded in 2 Cor.5:6-8, confirming Ecc.12:7, and 1 Cor.15:44, 50, 51 and 52. In the same way those who are left on earth alive at Jesus coming will be, when they are CAUGHT UP to be with Jesus, in the clouds of the sky. As Enoch and Elijah were translated.

When Jesus returns for those believers left on earth alive at His coming, He will bring with him, all those who previously died in Him, recorded in verse 14:

1 Thess.4:14 "For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him."

The passage of Scripture in 1 Thess.4:13-18 will occur a good seven years before the resurrection of the tribulation martyrs/saints, recorded in Rev.20:4, Jesus advised John, was the FIRST resurrection! Therefore, calling 1 Thess.4:16 a resurrection would be a blatant contradiction of what Jesus has told us! Nor is 1 Thess.4:16 dovumented as a resurrection.

Show me anywhere else in the Bible, where the Church is recorded in any general resurrection, since it has been verified that 1 Thess.4:16 is not a resurrection.

In addition, please explain to me why a sinful dead physical body could ever have acceptance in the heavenly realm that all the spirit/souls of them are going. Or even if those dead bodies are changed in a twinkling of an eye from mortal to immortal, they would be unacceptable in the heavenly realm, as recorded in 1 Cor.15:50. Which is very different from the resurrection that will take place in Rev.20:4, when those participants will be made priests of God and of Christ, and serve Him in glorified physical bodies for 1,000 years on earth.

Jesus will return from the marriage to His Bride/Church, in heaven, in Rev.19:7-8, in His second coming to the earth, WITH His Church, in verse 14, when they will all be physically materialized, as the pre-incarnate Jesus was, along with the angels in Gen.18, 19 and 32; Jos.5:13-15 and Dan.3:24-25 and 12:7, When He establishes His kingdom on earth together with His Church, to reign with Him for 1,000 years, according to Rev.20:6.

There is much more in the post your above quote is in that needs a response, but time does not permit me to do so tonight, I will try and get back to it if at all possible, later on.

Quasar92

masmpg · Nov 1, 2016

Here is what the bible states about the second coming. Here is all the verses in context from

1Th:4:13: But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.1Th:4:14: For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th:4:15: For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th:4:16: For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th:4:17: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th:4:18: Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

This is the whole context. To extract it like it belongs in bits and pieces does not work.

The first point Paul mentions is "those who are asleep", and the fact that Jesus will "bring them with Him". Then we read about those who are alive and remain shall not prevent those who are asleep. Then the Lord descends from heaven with a shout and THE DEAD IN CHRIST RISE FIRST! The big question is If the "dead in Christ are already in heaven how will they "rise first"? The answer to that is very simple. The dead in Christ are still in the grave waiting to be resurrected just like ell the dead. The dead in Christ rise first then those who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them. THE JESUS WILL BRING ALL OF THEM WITH HIM BACK TO HEAVEN! This argument will help nobody get 1 inch closer to God nor will it prepare them for Jesus coming to take His people home.

If we want to break down everywhere in the bible that mentions Jesus coming to earth and create some sort of different coming for each mention there would be far many more then two or three comings. His coming is mentioned in the old testament, is that a different coming then the pre trib rapture coming too?

Jesus is only coming for His people once then a thousand years later He is coming for the wicked so they can be raised up and burned and be ashes under our feet! Just like the bible states. I can show verses for all I state here. If anyone is really interested in the truth, instead of opinions and uninspired dogmas.

Suffice it to say that Jesus is coming soon. the signs of the times prove this fact. We must be certain of our salvation instead of arguing issues that are not edifying. The spiritual gifts were given for edification not argument. Far too many fail to understand the most important context in the whole bible while they argue about nothing. Ephesians 2:8-10 is the most important doctrinal issue for Christians today. Most believe and teach that obedience has nothing to do with salvation when in fact grace, the blessing we have been saved by was given to us FOR OBEDIENCE according to Paul in Romans 1:5. I suggest that we make certain of our own salvation before we argue about matters that do not concern salvation. Please learn what it means to use grace for obedience to the faith.

Ahwatukee · Nov 1, 2016

Hello masmpg,

The above is exactly one of the main causes for misinterpreting end-time events. 1 Thes.4:13-18 is in reference to the gathering of the church, which is a separate event from the second coming. The gathering of the church (Hapazo) is described above, while the second coming, is when Christ returns to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom.

Rev.19:11-21 is a detailed account of Christ's return to the earth to end the age. That army seen in Rev.19:14, who are following Christ out of heaven, are those who will have previously been caught up, demonstrating that they will have already been in heaven. This group is also referred to as the Lord's called, chosen and faithful followers - Rev.17:14.

So, because of not discerning that these are two separate events, the above is all incorrect.

The Gathering of the church (Rapture) ------------ Second Coming

Believers meet the Lord in the air ------------------------ Believers return with the Lord to the earth

Occurs before the great tribulation ----------------------- Occurs after the great tribulation

Removal is an act of deliverance -------------------------- Removal is an act of judgment

Is unseen by the world ------------------------------------ Every eye shall see Him

Is imminent and has no signs preceding it -------------- The events of God's wrath must take place first

masmpg · Nov 1, 2016

Ahwatukee said:

Hello masmpg,

The above is exactly one of the main causes for misinterpreting end-time events. 1 Thes.4:13-18 is in reference to the gathering of the church, which is a separate event from the second coming. The gathering of the church (Hapazo) is described above, while the second coming, is when Christ returns to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom.

Rev.19:11-21 is a detailed account of Christ's return to the earth to end the age. That army seen in Rev.19:14, who are following Christ out of heaven, are those who will have previously been caught up, demonstrating that they will have already been in heaven. This group is also referred to as the Lord's called, chosen and faithful followers - Rev.17:14.

So, because of not discerning that these are two separate events, the above is all incorrect.

Did you know that Jack Van Impe, I am certain you have heard of him, long ago stated that this "pre trib" doctrine cannot be taught from the bible? He went on to say that the ONLY way this doctrine can be proven is if we look to the church "fathers" who were catholic. You can surmise all you want to but there is one ONE second coming for the church, God's people, or whoever you want to call them. Because you certainly have no biblical support for this falsehood. To try to put time frames into bible verses and take parts here and there from prophecies that are proven and understood by all denominations to believe something totally different than whet the pre tribbers teach is, well. You might really want to take a step back from your hard stance on a man made doctrine, because it is not biblical.

The Gathering of the church (Rapture) ------------ Second Coming

Believers meet the Lord in the air ------------------------ Believers return with the Lord to the earth

Occurs before the great tribulation ----------------------- Occurs after the great tribulation

Removal is an act of deliverance -------------------------- Removal is an act of judgment

Is unseen by the world ------------------------------------ Every eye shall see Him

Is imminent and has no signs preceding it -------------- The events of God's wrath must take place first

This means absolutely nothing but opinions, which are dangerous to base your salvation on. If Jesus comes and you are not ready, or are not "taken" what will you think? Better yet Are you certain you are ready?

popeye · Nov 1, 2016

bluto said:

That must come from a newer version.

Where "all" don't get killed refusing the mark.

Just some.

But before that they changed it to "most".

Anyway,mine says ALL.

You using the "some",or "must" version?

BTW,my challenge stands. Please post a verse.

So far ,you haven't

popeye · Nov 1, 2016

Double post double post

Ahwatukee · Nov 1, 2016

masmpg said:

Pretty amazing! I displayed some of the main differences between the two events and you call them opinions. Yet they are scriptural facts masmpg, which can be proven by comparing and cross-referencing the scriptures for each event.

As a believer, one should always be ready and watching for the Lord's appearing, for it is our "blessed hope." We should be recognizing the times that we are in via the state of the earth and the level of knowledge that we are at via the scriptures and therefore the nearness of the Lord's appearing, which is what I am doing by pointing these things out to you and others.

I am showing you that the Lord's appearing to gather his church vs. his return to the earth to end the age, are two different events. Those who make the two events as being the same are double minded. For they say that their salvation is in Christ, but at the same time believe that we will remain on the earth during the time of God's wrath. By this, the are not recognizing that Christ took upon himself the wrath that we deserve. And since God's wrath has been satisfied for those in Christ, it is impossible for us to be exposed to that coming wrath. It is the underlying principal of this issue.

The only scripturally sound fulfillment is that, the Lord's promise of coming back to gather all believers and to then take us to the Father's house, as found in John 14:1-3, would be prior to his wrath being poured out upon this earth, otherwise it would be as if Jesus had made no payment for us. For what would be the difference if both the righteous and the unrighteous are exposed to the same wrath? Regarding this, in 1 Thes.5:4, after Paul has given a detailed account of our being changed and caught up, he then mentions those who while they are saying "peace and safety" destruction will come upon them suddenly. And then he follows with "But you brothers." Without even reading any further, it infers that where the unrighteous will not escape, the opposite will be true for those in Christ. But he goes on to say, "but you brothers are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief." The reason that a true believer would not be taken by surprise, is because they would have already been ready and watching for the Lord's appearing and would have been ready to go when the bridegroom calls us with that voice that sounds like a trumpet saying "Come up here!"

It is my desire to get people to understand that in between right now and the time that the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, that the wrath of God stands in the way, which the true church cannot go through. And therefore, the Lord's appearing to gather his church must take place prior to that wrath, which will take place via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

My hope and prayer is that, instead of arguing about it, you and others will look into this truth and understand that the appearing of the Lord is truly a blessed hope and that we can comfort one another with those words, knowing that we are not appointed to suffer his wrath and that because Jesus rescues us from it.

The wrath of God is coming upon this earth very quickly and it will be will be an unprecedented time of disaster, unequaled from the beginning of the world, until now, and never to be equaled again. But for those who believe, Christ will appear in the air prior to that time of wrath and remove his church. I hope that you will be found anticipating his appearing because you are having faith that he took the wrath that we deserve upon himself and having confidence in His promise.

You say that the information above is my opinion, can you identify who that army is that is following Christ out of heaven riding on white horses?

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 = The gathering of the church, dead and living

Matthew 24:29-31, Rev.19:11-21 = The Lord's return to the earth to end the age

In his letter to Titus, Paul refers to the appearing of our Lord as "the blessed hope."

At the end of Paul's detailed account of the resurrection and catching away in 1 Thes.4:13-18, Paul says to all believers "therefore, comfort each other with these words." Suffice to say, if the gathering of the living believers was to take place after God's wrath, it would be no blessed hope for those who belong to Christ and there would be no comforting one another.

For those who believe that the church is going to be present on the earth during the time of God's wrath, they have no understand of the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath. This world is going to be a completely different place full of chaos! Via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, God is going to decimate the population of the earth and dismantle all human government. With just the 4th seal and 6 trumpet, which are the only percentages given and based on a population of 7 billion, there will be approximately 4.5 billion people dead within the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. And that is not counting the fatalities that result from trumpets 1 thru 3 nor from the bowl judgments. This is why the Lord warns believers over and over to be watching and ready, which represents having extra oil.

Quasar92 · Nov 1, 2016

masmpg said:

Here is what the bible states about the second coming. Here is all the verses in context from

1Th:4:13: But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.1Th:4:14: For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th:4:15: For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th:4:16: For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th:4:17: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th:4:18: Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

This is the whole context. To extract it like it belongs in bits and pieces does not work.

The first point Paul mentions is "those who are asleep", and the fact that Jesus will "bring them with Him". Then we read about those who are alive and remain shall not prevent those who are asleep. Then the Lord descends from heaven with a shout and THE DEAD IN CHRIST RISE FIRST! The big question is If the "dead in Christ are already in heaven how will they "rise first"? The answer to that is very simple. The dead in Christ are still in the grave waiting to be resurrected just like ell the dead. The dead in Christ rise first then those who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them. THE JESUS WILL BRING ALL OF THEM WITH HIM BACK TO HEAVEN! This argument will help nobody get 1 inch closer to God nor will it prepare them for Jesus coming to take His people home.

If we want to break down everywhere in the bible that mentions Jesus coming to earth and create some sort of different coming for each mention there would be far many more then two or three comings. His coming is mentioned in the old testament, is that a different coming then the pre trib rapture coming too?

Jesus is only coming for His people once then a thousand years later He is coming for the wicked so they can be raised up and burned and be ashes under our feet! Just like the bible states. I can show verses for all I state here. If anyone is really interested in the truth, instead of opinions and uninspired dogmas.

Suffice it to say that Jesus is coming soon. the signs of the times prove this fact. We must be certain of our salvation instead of arguing issues that are not edifying. The spiritual gifts were given for edification not argument. Far too many fail to understand the most important context in the whole bible while they argue about nothing. Ephesians 2:8-10 is the most important doctrinal issue for Christians today. Most believe and teach that obedience has nothing to do with salvation when in fact grace, the blessing we have been saved by was given to us FOR OBEDIENCE according to Paul in Romans 1:5. I suggest that we make certain of our own salvation before we argue about matters that do not concern salvation. Please learn what it means to use grace for obedience to the faith.

Review posts 371 and 372 for the Biblical teaching of the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church, with a link at the bottom providing the difference between that event and the second coming of Jesus to the earth with His Church from heaven. Followed by the chronological order of end times events.

Quasar92

Scriptures against the false pre-tribulation rapture doctrine

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