Scriptures against the false pre-tribulation rapture doctrine

PlainWord · Oct 19, 2016

What was it that Archie was always calling Edith?

Thanks for calling me a false prophet. I take that as the highest form of compliment coming from you. When someone resorts to name calling its usually because they can't win on the merits of their arguments.

What did Ezekiel say to the false prophets of his day, who coincidentally, were signing the same song as you?

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Thus says the Lord God: “Woe to the foolish prophets, who follow their own spirit and have seen nothing! [SUP]4 [/SUP]O Israel, your prophets are like foxes in the deserts. [SUP]5 [/SUP]You have not gone up into the gaps to build a wall for the house of Israel to stand in battle on the day of the Lord. [SUP]6 [/SUP]They have envisioned futility and false divination, saying, ‘Thus says the Lord!’ But the Lord has not sent them; yet they hope that the word may be confirmed. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Have you not seen a futile vision, and have you not spoken false divination? You say, ‘The Lord says,’ but I have not spoken.”

You want to Lord to confirm your false pre-trib narrative, but He says "I HAVE NOT SPOKEN."

[SUP]8 [/SUP]Therefore thus says the Lord God: “Because you have spoken nonsense and envisioned lies, therefore I am indeed against you,” says the Lord God. [SUP]9 [/SUP]“My hand will be against the prophets who envision futility and who divine lies...

God is against those whose word He has not confirmed. You are speaking nonsense and have envisioned lies. The Word tells us that the Saints will be under attack in the end days, and so we are today. Our power will be completely shattered BEFORE Christ returns.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]“Because, indeed, because they have seduced My people, saying, ‘Peace!’ when there is no peace...

The pre-trib rapture is a way of saying to the Church, "Don't worry about the increasing trouble we are facing around the world, we get to fly away." THERE IS NO PEACE Brother Quasar. You are doing the same thing the false prophets in Ezekiel's day did. They told the people, PEACE, then Babylon attacked and led them away and destroyed their city and temple. You are telling the church, "PEACE" but there will be no peace for the church. We need to be preparing the Church to stand firm and keep the faith. You are telling the church not to worry, we get to fly away.

[SUP]16 [/SUP]that is, the prophets of Israel who prophesy concerning Jerusalem, and who see visions of peace for her when there is no peace,’” says the Lord God.

Just as there is no peace for Israel in the end times, there will be no peace for us either.

[SUP]20 [/SUP]Wherefore thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

You teach a FLY AWAY doctrine when there is no fly away, not until the very last day anyway.

The reason I seem to be getting under your skin is because you have more than met your match. You are hearing the Word the correct way for perhaps the very first time and the power of the Word is convicting your heart. You are wood and your lies will be like stumble when the truth of God's plan is revealed.

eternally-gratefull · Oct 19, 2016

bluto said:

A few notes. All you said is correct. but non of those would preclude the rapture.

1. The end of the age, or the time of his return, speaks to the return of Jesus, Not the rapture of the saints.
2. It will occur to "all who dwell on the earth" at the time it happens, If people die or raptured, they are not on the earth, so the point as I see it is mute.
3. The church has been present since the begining, That does not mean they will depart at a time in the future.. So again, Not sure of your reasoning.

Matt 24 is not about the end of the church age, but the time of his return.

No man knows the time of his return to ressurect the people in Christ, not even Jesus knew this, But from the prophesy given concerning the age of Jacobs trouble, or tribulation, or 70th week, We (at least those on earth at the time) can know almost to the day when he will return to set upi his kingdom, for there are all kinds of signs which point to it..

all of this certainly does not prove pre-trib, But nor does your use of matt 24 to deny it prove there is no pre-trib.

PlainWord · Oct 19, 2016

The thing you forget is the question asked.

Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

The disciples wanted to know what signs (or events) would precede Christ's return. All of them thought Christ would return in their lifetimes. They had no idea it would be thousands of years. If the "rapture" was in their lifetime, they would certainly be included in it. Yet, Christ doesn't breathe a word about the rapture in His reply. Instead He focuses entirely on the events that lead up to His second coming.

If there were two future returns of Christ, there would be a clear teaching of it. But there isn't. He would have mentioned His rapture return as a sign of His second coming, but He doesn't. To snatch hundreds of millions of Christians off the planet with all the resulting chaos that would ensue, would surely be as big of a sign as the earthquakes, famines, hatred, etc that is mentioned.

The disciples rightly identify the return of Christ with the end of the world. The Day of the Lord was a well-taught OT principle. After all, this day was the day the religious leaders of the day were awaiting also - the Messiah coming in Power to put down their enemies. This is still the day the vast majority of Jews are awaiting.

The Jews in Christ's day failed to see that the OT taught two comings of Messiah, one as a Lamb, one as the King. A third coming between the two taught, where He stays in the clouds and removes a different group ahead of them, is not found in the OT.

Then there is this verse:

John 15: [SUP]15 [/SUP]Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

However, Jesus never teaches them about a rapture return. Why? Did He lie to them? I think not. The so-called pre-trib rapture teaching is not found in the Gospels, instead those who support it, claim it comes primarily from Paul who wasn't even in the picture when Christ said the above.

The one verse from the Gospels that all pre-tribbers cling to is this one:

[SUP]3 [/SUP]And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

This tells us that when Christ comes again, He receives us to Him. Another way of saying this is that He gathers us upon His return. Well isn't that exactly what He says in the below passage? He's in the clouds, there is a trumpet and a gathering by angels, just as Paul teaches.

...and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.[SUP] 31 [/SUP]And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This from Paul:

[SUP]16 [/SUP]For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

All three passages seem the same to me. When Christ returns, He is here, not there. We are gathered to Him here on earth.

If Christ wanted to convey to the Church a special gathering and return before Israel faces its great tribulation, all He would have needed to say is something like this in Mat 24:

And before the Abomination of Desolation is set up, I will return to the clouds and gather my Church then return a third time after the great tribulation to set up my kingdom.

No such verse is found.

eternally-gratefull · Oct 19, 2016

PlainWord said:

The thing you forget is the question asked.

Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

The disciples wanted to know what signs (or events) would precede Christ's return. All of them thought Christ would return in their lifetimes. They had no idea it would be thousands of years. If the "rapture" was in their lifetime, they would certainly be included in it. Yet, Christ doesn't breathe a word about the rapture in His reply. Instead He focuses entirely on the events that lead up to His second coming.

If there were two future returns of Christ, there would be a clear teaching of it. But there isn't. He would have mentioned His rapture return as a sign of His second coming, but He doesn't. To snatch hundreds of millions of Christians off the planet with all the resulting chaos that would ensue, would surely be as big of a sign as the earthquakes, famines, hatred, etc that is mentioned.

The disciples rightly identify the return of Christ with the end of the world. The Day of the Lord was a well-taught OT principle. After all, this day was the day the religious leaders of the day were awaiting also - the Messiah coming in Power to put down their enemies. This is still the day the vast majority of Jews are awaiting.

The Jews in Christ's day failed to see that the OT taught two comings of Messiah, one as a Lamb, one as the King. A third coming between the two taught, where He stays in the clouds and removes a different group ahead of them, is not found in the OT.

Then there is this verse:

John 15: [SUP]15 [/SUP]Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

However, Jesus never teaches them about a rapture return. Why? Did He lie to them? I think not. The so-called pre-trib rapture teaching is not found in the Gospels, instead those who support it, claim it comes primarily from Paul who wasn't even in the picture when Christ said the above.

The one verse from the Gospels that all pre-tribbers cling to is this one:

[SUP]3 [/SUP]And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

This tells us that when Christ comes again, He receives us to Him. Another way of saying this is that He gathers us upon His return. Well isn't that exactly what He says in the below passage? He's in the clouds, there is a trumpet and a gathering by angels, just as Paul teaches.

...and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.[SUP] 31 [/SUP]And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Both passages seem the same to me. When Christ returns, He is here, not there. We are gathered to Him here on earth.

If Christ wanted to convey to the Church a special gathering and return before Israel faces its great tribulation, all He would have needed to say is something like this in Mat 24:

And before the Abomination of Desolation is set up, I will return to the clouds and gather my Church then return a third time after the great tribulation to set up my kingdom.

No such verse is found.

lol.. The disciples asked when those things would be,, And non of the questions pertain to the rapture.

So this whole post is gone..

PlainWord · Oct 19, 2016

eternally-gratefull said:

LOL. Why would the disciples be interested in an event that wasn't to pertain to them? I made that point. They wanted to know when they could expect to see Him again.

popeye · Oct 19, 2016

bluto said:

Reality check.

For many years we kinda shrugged our shoulders at mat 24. Seemed postrib rapture adherents had a valid point With "....after the tribulation of those days..."

Then something happened. I read it.

FWI,as you are doing now,Spinning mat 24 was the steak and potatoes of the postrib rapture theory.

Now,after massively debunking that nonsense,YOU WANT ME,to show you a pretrib model?

What you guys did was paint yourselves into a corner.

You rode that "after the gt" deal like a millionaire in a caddy convertable with a hired chauffeur.

Now that you gotta dig,all you have left is name calling and mocking our verses(the bible)

The reason our job is easy,is because Gods purposes,become a hub for a berean.

IOW,once truth reigns,you find yourself cracking a little smile,when you see verification,after verification,(God confirming his word),that it is indeed a pretrib rapture and resurrection. (the hub centering the spokes,the spokes pointing back to the hub,and the whole thing in harmony)

postrib rapture theory, is a bible verse blender.

That is the core of why you guys can never get any traction.

popeye · Oct 19, 2016

bluto said:

By the way,
Nice job on defending the trinity deal. I stood with you on that deal.

And also

You did seem to validly decipher parts of the 10 virgin parable.

PlainWord · Oct 19, 2016

Location of the future defiling of the holy place and Abomination of Desolation.

popeye · Oct 19, 2016

wolfwint said:

Yep,as if they are now "getting ready".

Just plain absurd.

The idea of "ready" is correctly placed on those READY for Jesu's appearance,.....not bracing for being beheaded.

There is nothing about the coming of the AC that is sudden,or taking anyone off guard.

Neither is being beheaded. They will arrest and confine those refusing the mark. Beheading comes after failed attempts at "reprocessing" those refusing the mark.

ON THE OTHER HAND,
Jesus' return is depicted as sudden.

AND NOWHERE IS WAITING AND WATCHING,for Jesus, rebuked or corrected as if wrong.

Definition of a straw man;
"That's what so ridiculous about pre-trib ...
... Satan's wrath cannot be aimed at his most hated enemies,
which are no other than born-from-above believers!
Gee, they're so lucky to have been raptured out of here ... many and lols!News Flash ...
The testing of the genuineness of our faith is accomplished during the great tribulation
of our best buddy, the anti-Christ.Are YOU ready?"

eternally-gratefull · Oct 19, 2016

PlainWord said:

That proves absolutely nothing

You will need MUCH MUCH more than this.

PlainWord · Oct 19, 2016

eternally-gratefull said:

You are the one attempting to add another return of Christ that isn't taught. I accept the only clear return and its timing as after the Great Tribulation of Israel. You want me to disprove an earlier return that isn't taught. Hello, McFly, if it isn't there, it isn't there.

The burden of proof is on you.

PlainWord · Oct 19, 2016

Israel is facing a big test coming up concerning the temple mount and wall.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is set to contact many of the leaders of 21 member nations of the UNESCO World Heritage Committee Executive Board in hopes of swaying them not to support next week’s vote on a resolution that ignores Jewish ties to the Temple Mount.

Israel’s Ambassador to the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization Carmel Shama-Hacohen said that Israel faced a stiff battle before that committee because it’s composed of countries with a history of voting against Israel.“There is a will to stop this chaos [of such resolutions] which harms everyone,” Shama-Hacohen said. But he acknowledged that the World Heritage Committee which meets in Paris from October 24 to 26 “will be a tough playing field.”

The vote is part of the bureaucratic process by which the World Heritage Committee reaffirmed the placement of Jerusalem and its Old City Walls on its list of endangered sites called “World Heritage in Danger.”

It had been set to do this in Istanbul in July, but Turkey’s failed coup forced the committee to cut its session short and to reconvene in October to finish its agenda.

At that time the text in question, referred to the Temple Mount solely by its Muslim name of Al-Haram Al-Sharif. The Western Wall plaza was placed twice in quotations marks but otherwise was spoken of as the Buraq plaza.

Since 2015, the Palestinians, have pushed to change the linguistic references to the Temple Mount to largely ignore the Judeo-Christian ties to the site and turning every resolution on Jerusalem in UNESCO into a cultural and historic battle between Judaism and Islam.

Ahwatukee · Oct 19, 2016

The answer is, because it is going to come upon all those who dwell upon the face of the earth, those who are left here after the church is gathered. That is why Jesus is continually saying to "Watch" and Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap, so that we will be able to escape all that is about to happen."

Bluto, you are greatly mistaken regarding what you stated above regarding the GT, for Rev.20:4-5 takes place after the GT. If you will follow along with the chronological order of events, the pouring out of the 7th bowl judgment In Rev.16, brings the GT to its end, for it completes the wrath of God. Following that, in Rev.19:11-21, the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. As he is descends to the earth, the beast and false prophet are captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire and Satan is bound in the Abyss for a thousand years. Following that, the GT saints are then resurrected, which as I demonstrated, takes place after the great tribulation period.

To recap, the great tribulation period will have been completed when Christ returns to the earth to end the age, as recorded in Rev.19:11-21. Rev.20:4-6, which is the resurrection of those saints who will have been killed during the GT, takes place after Christ returns, which again, is after the great tribulation has been completed.

Simple, the church is never mentioned again after the end of Revelation chapter 3. I've said the following many times in different posts. From Rev.1 thru the very end of chapter 3, the word "Ekklesia" translated as "church" is used throughout chapters 1 thru 3. In contrast, the word "Hagios" translated as "Saints" is never used within those same chapters. Likewise, from chapter 4 and beginning at 5:8, the word Hagios/Saints is used throughout the rest of the narrative and the word Ekklesia/church is never used. This is not a coincidence, but is God's way of saying to the reader to pay attention, something has changed here.

To recap, in Revelation chapters 1 thru 3 you have the word church used to describe believers, where the word Saints is never used. After chapter 4 the word Saints is used to describe believers and the word church is missing. The point being that, the church is not longer mentioned after the end of chapter 3. It is my belief that, in Rev.4:1 where John hears that voice that sounds like a trumpet saying "Come up here" is prophetic of the church being caught up. I believe that the "trumpet call of God" found in 1 Thes.4:16 is synonymous with the voice that sounds like a trumpet in Rev.4:1.

First of all, it is important to understand and always keep in mind that, John is not the author of the book of Revelation, God is. John was told to write down everything that he had seen and though not mentioned, also what he heard (Rev.1:11,19). And second, the purpose of why we are given the information within the book of Revelation is as follows:

"The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near."

Regarding your question, if we had not been given the book of Revelation, then how would each believer throughout the ages know about the rebukes found in the letters to the seven churches? How would any believer know to examine themselves and apply those rebukes? Also, the information given to us who have studied the book of Revelation and end-time events, is to teach other believers and warn non believers about what is coming, namely God's wrath upon the earth, which is what the majority of the book of Revelation is given to.

Regarding the reference "the time is near," the OT saints used the same phase in describing that same time period as the apostles did, which is still yet to be fulfilled. The meaning is that the day of the Lord, the wrath of God, is imminent i.e. always about to happen, on the horizon, looming, in the workings, until it takes place. It is not a time period that one can set a date to. It carries the same meaning as with the Lord's appearing for his church i.e. from the time that he ascended back into heaven, his return has always been near, always about to happen, imminent. And every generation is told to watch, as though he was coming that very day.

Did you notice in the scripture above, which your post was about, that Paul included himself and those with him who will be paid back and relieved? Yet Paul and the others mentioned are all dead. Therefore, how could that promise apply to him and the others since Jesus has not yet returned. The scripture would then have to be directed to those who would be alive on the earth at the time that Jesus returns with his angels, which scripture identifies as taking place after God's wrath has been poured out, as well as after all of the events of the beasts reign. His return is recorded in both Matt.24:29-31 and Rev.1:7,19:11-21. The church however will have been gathered prior to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, as the gathering and his return are two separate events. Since the wrath of God must take place via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments prior to the Lord's return to the earth, then the church must be gathered sometime prior to that wrath. For scripture states that we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, for Jesus rescued us from it by taking God's wrath upon himself.

bluto · Oct 19, 2016

You said this grateful!

Matt 24 is not about the end of the church age, but the time of his return.

No man knows the time of his return to ressurect the people in Christ, not even Jesus knew this, But from the prophesy given concerning the age of Jacobs trouble, or tribulation, or 70th week, We (at least those on earth at the time) can know almost to the day when he will return to set upi his kingdom, for there are all kinds of signs which point to it..

all of this certainly does not prove pre-trib, But nor does your use of matt 24 to deny it prove there is no pre-trib.

I know Matthew 24 is about His return because that was the question the disciples ask Christ at Matthew 24:3. And of course no man "specifically" knows the time of His return, HOWEVER, (and this is a big however) Jesus specifically "tipped us off" at Matthew 24:15 when He says, "Therefore (why is the word therefore there for?) When you see the Abomination of Desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place, (let the reader beware/understand).

What does Jesus say we are to do next? He says run don't walk to the nearest mountain. He does not say, "Don't worry I'm going to "rapture" you now? What does He say at Matthew 24:29? "But immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days etc. Vs30, "and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky etc. So again, I have to keep asking, where do you "insert" the rapture at Matthew 24, Mark 13 or Luke 21?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

eternally-gratefull · Oct 19, 2016

bluto said:

You said this grateful!

Matt 24 is not about the end of the church age, but the time of his return.

No man knows the time of his return to ressurect the people in Christ, not even Jesus knew this, But from the prophesy given concerning the age of Jacobs trouble, or tribulation, or 70th week, We (at least those on earth at the time) can know almost to the day when he will return to set upi his kingdom, for there are all kinds of signs which point to it..

all of this certainly does not prove pre-trib, But nor does your use of matt 24 to deny it prove there is no pre-trib.

I know Matthew 24 is about His return because that was the question the disciples ask Christ at Matthew 24:3. And of course no man "specifically" knows the time of His return, HOWEVER, (and this is a big however) Jesus specifically "tipped us off" at Matthew 24:15 when He says, "Therefore (why is the word therefore there for?) When you see the Abomination of Desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place, (let the reader beware/understand).

What does Jesus say we are to do next? He says run don't walk to the nearest mountain. He does not say, "Don't worry I'm going to "rapture" you now? What does He say at Matthew 24:29? "But immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days etc. Vs30, "and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky etc. So again, I have to keep asking, where do you "insert" the rapture at Matthew 24, Mark 13 or Luke 21?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

1. He spoke to those who are in jerusalem at that time who would first hand see the abomination of desolation (which means the temple was rebuilt by the way). also known as the woman of rev 13 who gave birth to the child , Not to the church (her offspring)
2. This does not mean the church was not removed 3.5 years earlier.

so while you have some points, I do not see them being the end all to prove your point.

eternally-gratefull · Oct 19, 2016

PlainWord said:

lol..

I am not trying to prove anyone, I already stated I have not made up my mind,

Your trying to prove there is no rapture, thus the onus is on you not me my friend.

finally.. The rapture is NOT A RETURN.. so your point is mute either way. (the term "rapture" comes from the term rapturas (latin) which means to be "caught up" this the rapture is not a return, as God brings or catches us up to him, he does not come to us.)

bluto · Oct 19, 2016

eternally-gratefull said:

So are you saying none of what Jesus said at Matthew 24 applies to us? I mean if you use that line of reasoning tell me who Jesus spoke to at Matthew 5?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

eternally-gratefull · Oct 19, 2016

bluto said:

Will you be there at the end of the age before Christ returns? Then yeah, He spoke to you.

He also spoke about jerusalem and those in jerusalem.

and he also told us that when we see the birth pangs, we know the time is near, but not yet.

But what does this have to do with the rapture? I fail to see the significance.

bluto · Oct 19, 2016

You still have not proven when the church will be raptured, before of after the GT? You say before which means since you make the claim you have to prove the claim. I say after based on the words of Jesus Christ at Matthew 24 and based on the fact that the Apostle Paul backs up what Jesus said at 1 and 2 Thessalonians. Or what the Apostle John stated at 1 John 2.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

eternally-gratefull · Oct 19, 2016

bluto said:

Actually I did not say either, I said and have always maintained I am not decided.

So I do not have to prove anything,.

All I am doing is knocking down the false idea that there is NO PROOF of Pretoria, which is a lie.

I would say you have proved nothing. Because Jesus did not need to talk about the rapture. The question was never asked, When will you resurrect us, The question was, When is your return.

again, the rapture and return are two different events.

1. God returns and puts boots on ground
2. God resurrects his people.

Scriptures against the false pre-tribulation rapture doctrine

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