Is that the power of Holy Spirit?

Elisabet · Oct 5, 2016

I noticed that in some kind of churches, when the priest touch the shoulders of some people, they will suddenly fall down, move uncontrollably and start saying weird languages. These Churches believe that that's how the Holy Spirit works.

However, i kind of doubt it. I believe that the Holy Spirit work in us to make us brave in telling people about Jesus, keep us in the right way, and many other productive things. Whereas, in the belief of some people from certain churches, the power of Holy Spirit is about making people fall down and say weird things. Well yea, it might be the part of the power, but why do people keep emphasising it like it's the only power of Holy Spirit?

My question is, does that thing (making people fall down, laugh uncontrollably, hold a service without any liturgies because they believe that everything will happen spontaneously by the power of Holy Spirit, etc) REALLY come from Holy Spirit? If it does, why do people keep glorifying (acting like it is the only amazing thing about Christianity), where actually as Christians, we are supposed to worship Trinity equally?

p.s. i don't know what these churches are called in English, but probably it's Charismatic (Bethel)

miknik5 · Oct 5, 2016

Elisabet said:

Maybe they forgot John 16? That the HOLY SPIRIT takes from HIM and gives to us and that the HOLY SPIRIT does not even speak of HIMSELF but what HE hears and HE (the SPIRIT) glorifies the SON?

Maybe they forgot that part?

If it were the HOLY SPIRIT, then the heart and mind of the person who "felt" this supposed "conversion" would be glorifying the GIFT of GOD...by speaking THE TRUTH of CHRIST...

LaurenTM · Oct 5, 2016

Elisabet said:

well, this is a long read, but it is your answer...I Corinthians 14

1Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. 2For anyone who speaks in a tongue[SUP]a[/SUP] does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit.

3But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort.4Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church.

5I would like every one of you to speak in tongues,[SUP]b[/SUP] but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues,[SUP]c[/SUP] unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.

6Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? 7Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the pipe or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes?

8Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? 9So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. 10Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning.

11If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and the speaker is a foreigner to me. 12So it is with you. Since you are eager for gifts of the Spirit, try to excel in those that build up the church.13For this reason the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say.

14For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding

.16Otherwise when you are praising God in the Spirit, how can someone else, who is now put in the position of an inquirer,[SUP]d[/SUP] say “Amen” to your thanksgiving, since they do not know what you are saying? 17You are giving thanks well enough, but no one else is edified.

18I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you.

19But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.20Brothers and sisters, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults.

21In the Law it is written:“With other tongues and through the lips of foreigners I will speak to this people, says the Lord.”

22Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers. 23So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind?

24But if an unbeliever or an inquirer comes in while everyone is prophesying, they are convicted of sin and are brought under judgment by all,

25as the secrets of their hearts are laid bare. So they will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, “God is really among you!”Good Order in Worship

26What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up.

27If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to

God.29Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop.

31For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace—as in all the congregations of the Lord’s people.34Women[SUP]f[/SUP] should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says.

35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.[SUP]g[/SUP]36Or did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached?

37If anyone thinks they are a prophet or otherwise gifted by the Spirit, let them acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord’s command. 38But if anyone ignores this, they will themselves be ignored.

39Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.

so basically, it's all good until people get a hold of it and pervert it and want to use the gifts instead of letting the Holy Spirit us the gifts through THEM

miknik5 · Oct 5, 2016

Every gift given us is for the building up of HIS BODY

Not our own

Willie-T · Oct 5, 2016

I thank God that He finally led me to a congregation where He actually is alive in the people.

miknik5 · Oct 5, 2016

I thank GOD that it isn't where I go that I should worry that what HE has made clean can somehow be defiled by anything. In fact when I start "thanking GOD" that I am this and not that, well?

Hmmm

garee · Oct 5, 2016

Elisabet said:

It was the same kind of ideology of the apostate Jews(no faith) used. They unlike the gentiles who had an intellectual gospel as after the wisdom of men rather than those who sought after signs( Jews)This is as experienced by a work they performed, as evidence they had the Holy Spirit. Using shadows in ceremonial laws that pointed ahead to the coming Christ in the flesh.. And therefore were not walking by faith as the same spirit of faith according, as it is written.

There simply is no outward sign by which a person could confirm they have the Spirit of Christ. Signs are for those who do not believe(no faith, the rebellious) Prophecy for those who do have a faith in respect to Christ, as the anchor of our souls. The sign is inward (not seen) in respect to Christ who indwells, as the kind of food the world knows not of: “The work of Holy Spirit”.

For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;1Co 1:22

This I believe would be the same kind stumbling block of the Charismatics today. I don't think it proves as a sign they are not believers seeing no man see into the heart of another but could be in a dark place.

He gives us a new as new creatures a new desire, a new heart to the do, or eat the fruit of His will as He works in us to both will and do His good pleasure as a imputed righteousness not of ourselves, lest any man boast in false pride. it would be the sign I believe that a person is a new creature.

They who will not believe, as the faith of Christ works in us . I believe they be not be found with any righteousness of themselves by that kind of hope.

The falling down or falling back is a sign used in many places to indicate that men are under the judgement of Christ. I would be careful with sign seekers . Christ informs us it is an evil generation (natural man that does seek after them. No sign will be given the last was the sign of Jonas, it has come to pass..

UndoubtingThomas · Oct 5, 2016

Elisabet said:

I like your question. It really makes me think about The Trinity as well as the part the The Holy Spirit plays in it but it also reminds me that thinking about things I can't possibly explain usually gets me in trouble and giving praise to anything other than God for any miraculous thing is also likely to backfire. Not saying you are, just saying for those that are doing it.

LaurenTM · Oct 5, 2016

miknik5 said:

well. you know...praying in tongues is for personal use

and most definitely builds up each person

we can only bring to the table what we partook of ourselves

notuptome · Oct 5, 2016

miknik5 said:

It would seem that the heart of the question is: is this of the Holy Spirit?

I see only vague allusions to the Holy Spirit and the gift of the Holy Spirit in the responses but no biblical support for such contentions.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

LaurenTM · Oct 5, 2016

notuptome said:

oh...you missed it?

well here it is again:

I CORINTHIANS 14

1Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. 2For anyone who speaks in a tongue[SUP]a[/SUP]does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit.

3But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort.4Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church.

5I would like every one of you to speak in tongues,[SUP]b[/SUP] but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues,[SUP]c[/SUP] unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.

6Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? 7Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the pipe or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes?

8Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? 9So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air.10Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning.

11If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and the speaker is a foreigner to me. 12So it is with you. Since you are eager for gifts of the Spirit, try to excel in those that build up the church.13For this reason the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say.

14For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding

.16Otherwise when you are praising God in the Spirit, how can someone else, who is now put in the position of an inquirer,[SUP]d[/SUP] say “Amen” to your thanksgiving, since they do not know what you are saying? 17You are giving thanks well enough, but no one else is edified.

18I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you.

19But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.20Brothers and sisters, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults.

21In the Law it is written:“With other tongues and through the lips of foreigners I will speak to this people, says the Lord.”

22Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers. 23So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind?

24But if an unbeliever or an inquirer comes in while everyone is prophesying, they are convicted of sin and are brought under judgment by all,

25as the secrets of their hearts are laid bare. So they will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, “God is really among you!”Good Order in Worship

26What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up.

27If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret.28If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to

God.29Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop.

31For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace—as in all the congregations of the Lord’s people.34Women[SUP]f[/SUP] should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says.

35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.[SUP]g[/SUP]36Or did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached?

37If anyone thinks they are a prophet or otherwise gifted by the Spirit, let them acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord’s command. 38But if anyone ignores this, they will themselves be ignored.

39Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.

notuptome · Oct 5, 2016

LaurenTM said:

oh...you missed it?

well here it is again:

I CORINTHIANS 14

1Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. 2For anyone who speaks in a tongue[SUP]a[/SUP]does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit.

3But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort.4Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church.

5I would like every one of you to speak in tongues,[SUP]b[/SUP] but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues,[SUP]c[/SUP] unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.

6Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? 7Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the pipe or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes?

8Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? 9So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air.10Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning.

11If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and the speaker is a foreigner to me. 12So it is with you. Since you are eager for gifts of the Spirit, try to excel in those that build up the church.13For this reason the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say.

14For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding

.16Otherwise when you are praising God in the Spirit, how can someone else, who is now put in the position of an inquirer,[SUP]d[/SUP] say “Amen” to your thanksgiving, since they do not know what you are saying? 17You are giving thanks well enough, but no one else is edified.

18I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you.

19But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.20Brothers and sisters, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults.

21In the Law it is written:“With other tongues and through the lips of foreigners I will speak to this people, says the Lord.”

22Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers. 23So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind?

24But if an unbeliever or an inquirer comes in while everyone is prophesying, they are convicted of sin and are brought under judgment by all,

25as the secrets of their hearts are laid bare. So they will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, “God is really among you!”Good Order in Worship

26What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up.

27If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret.28If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to

God.29Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop.

31For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace—as in all the congregations of the Lord’s people.34Women[SUP]f[/SUP] should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says.

35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.[SUP]g[/SUP]36Or did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached?

37If anyone thinks they are a prophet or otherwise gifted by the Spirit, let them acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord’s command. 38But if anyone ignores this, they will themselves be ignored.

39Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.

Falling on the floor and laughing uncontrollably? I don't see that in the passage. Where exactly will I find it? Certainly not verse 40.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Ultimatum77 · Oct 5, 2016

notuptome said:

yea the "Holy Spirit laughing" phenomenon doesn't make sense to me.....laughing does not edify the person or others...I mean sure maybe if someone is down the Holy Spirit can give joy and make them laugh but this whole "group laugh" type experience is very disturbing.....like videos on youtube with kenneth hagin is something dark about that.....almost like putting people in a trance like state/mesmerized.....The Holy Spirit is more concerned with healing people emotionally, spiritually and physicially, not making a scene like comedy central or what not.....

LaurenTM · Oct 5, 2016

notuptome said:

well, when I read your anti Holy Spirit posts I certainly do NOT laugh

BUT...you should stop trying to cover up the scriptures that I posted

TWICE now

and this:

39Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.

you ignore this at your own peril and you do no service to yourself or anyone else by trying to intimate I said something I did not say

the answer is obviously in verse 40...everything should be done decently and in order

I also noted the fact that the gifts are to be used at the discretion of the Holy Spirit through the believer, not the believer trying to use the gifts

from post 3 so basically, it's all good until people get a hold of it and pervert it and want to use the gifts instead of letting the Holy Spirit us the gifts through THEM

I cannot begin to state the little regard I have for people who DELIBERATELY twist the posts of others

and you do that often enough Roger...often enough

I have fallen on my knees in worship, but I don't make animal noises nor do I do anything unseemly

I can't help what others do

LaurenTM · Oct 5, 2016

Ultimatum77 said:

none of that makes what is true a lie

none of it

however, the crowd in Jerusalem did think the 40 were drunk...so sometimes things are not as they seem

as it is, ignorance is no excuse and I would not want to stand before God and be asked why I mocked His gifts or the Holy Spirit

and don't come back and say I said you were mocking because obviously I have not said that...but I think it appropriate to warn people that God is not mocked

LaurenTM · Oct 5, 2016

the Holy Spirit does not create a three ring circus...people do that

just like people think they know better than God what should happen at any given time in any given place

you cannot direct the Spirit of God in what He should do...no one can

however, He does not create chaos and false healings and such...that, again, is the work of people

that being said, as I stated in my other post, what He does do, can be misinterpreted ESPECIALLY by the religious among us and again...I am not saying you are religious

trofimus · Oct 5, 2016

Elisabet said:

I noticed that in some kind of churches, when the priest touch the shoulders of some people, they will suddenly fall down, move uncontrollably and start saying weird languages. These Churches believe that that's how the Holy Spirit works.

However, i kind of doubt it. I believe that the Holy Spirit work in us to make us brave in telling people about Jesus, keep us in the right way, and many other productive things. Whereas, in the belief of some people from certain churches, the power of Holy Spirit is about making people fall down and say weird things. Well yea, it might be the part of the power, but why do people keep emphasising it like it's the only power of Holy Spirit?

My question is, does that thing (making people fall down, laugh uncontrollably, hold a service without any liturgies because they believe that everything will happen spontaneously by the power of Holy Spirit, etc) REALLY come from Holy Spirit? If it does, why do people keep glorifying (acting like it is the only amazing thing about Christianity), where actually as Christians, we are supposed to worship Trinity equally?

p.s. i don't know what these churches are called in English, but probably it's Charismatic (Bethel)

Yeah, its called charismatic or pentecostal movement.

I think the falling and other things are result of auto/suggestion, hypnosis and nerves made vulnerable by shouting, loud music and hysterical atmosphere.

Willie-T · Oct 5, 2016

It's interesting how we ignore this part, and say that only CERTAIN things that we approve of or are comfortable with should be done.

. 40But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.

Hawkins · Oct 5, 2016

1 Corinthians 14:27-28 (KJV)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
[SUP]28 [/SUP] But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

It all started with Corinthians speaking an unknown tongue (singular, not tongues) which became controversial that Paul had to set some guidelines to restrict its effect.

In Pentecost, it's never about a single tongue (KJV actually signifies it as unknown tongue). It's about the different human speaking languages heard by people from different places.

Acts 2:7-11 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
[SUP]8 [/SUP] And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

notuptome · Oct 5, 2016

LaurenTM said:

So it's more about attacking me than defending the truth?

What about the gift of discernment? Are you not able to discern between real and fake?

I am not anti Holy Spirit but I am very anti abuse of the Holy Spirit.

Many of the charismatic and Pentecostal types are not going to touch this thread because they do not want to own the falling down laughing slain in the spirit stuff the young lady asked about. Note she uses the term priest to describe the one doing the placing of their hands on the persons. Wonder if they are catholic churches to which she is alluding? Given the part of the world from which she writes is seems likely.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Is that the power of Holy Spirit?

Senior Member

Senior Member

LaurenTM

Guest

Senior Member

Banned

Senior Member

Banned

Senior Member

LaurenTM

Guest

Senior Member

LaurenTM

Guest

Senior Member

Ultimatum77

Guest

LaurenTM

Guest

LaurenTM

Guest

LaurenTM

Guest

Senior Member

Banned

Hawkins

Guest

Senior Member