predestination vs freewill

[Depleted]

@Stephen, thanks for surfacing so many verses with your emphasis on whosoever, its clear now. Probably all the confusion stem from our perceived definition of the word 'predestination', in which we assumed that God has set hell as the destination for some people. So I suppose in accordance to the scripture, it means by default people will go hell for those who decides not to follow Christ (freewill) & because God foreknew the freewill choices we will make, He already knows those who will follow Christ & thus His blessings will be 'unlocked' to these followers (which God refers to predestination in bible context) am i right?

 

[Magenta]

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only
for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Jesus exhorts people to repent and believe. Why would
He do that if we had no choice in the matter?

 

[Depleted]

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only
for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Jesus exhorts people to repent and believe. Why would
He do that if we had no choice in the matter?

Answered in the link I gave in my first response on this thread.

 

[oldethennew]

MATT.5:19.
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least Commandments, and shall teach men so,
he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them,
the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

scripture plainly says that 'works' are DEFINATELY-CONNECTED with 'reward',
although Eternal Life is a FREE GIFT,

MATT. 16:27.
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of His Father with His angels;
and then He shall reward every man according to His works.

we are truly saved by GRACE...but REWARDED by our WORKS...

 

[Stephen63]

@Stephen, thanks for surfacing so many verses with your emphasis on whosoever, its clear now. Probably all the confusion stem from our perceived definition of the word 'predestination', in which we assumed that God has set hell as the destination for some people. So I suppose in accordance to the scripture, it means by default people will go hell for those who decides not to follow Christ (freewill) & because God foreknew the freewill choices we will make, He already knows those who will follow Christ & thus His blessings will be 'unlocked' to these followers (which God refers to predestination in bible context) am i right?

But I have a qus Stephen, I understand that God lives outside time, therefore He foreknows everything, including people who will reject Christ eventually. Then there is no purpose of God further intervening in these peoples life isn't it since the conclusion (which God knows) is that these people will still ULTIMATELY rejects Christ...

(I have serious difficulty grasping this part)

Because God is no respecter of persons, He still loves everyone the same. Which means, when you think about it, He still will draw unrepentant people to Him, knowing they will reject Christ. If He didn't, He wouldn't be fair & just.
When it comes to blessings, many of them come according to faithfulness.

Yes, God will put the ability within believers to do His will, & bless even more when we respond faithfully to Him.

 

[Stephen63]

And all... of that is very true.

It's just that you cannot reverse what our Lord Jesus said...

Matt 20:12-16
12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.

13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?

14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.

15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?

16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.
KJV

Now try to open up your mind and be sharp; what's the subject analogy Jesus gave in that parable of the laborers of the field? It's about the laborers in His Work, in His Salvation. All of them are in that.

The first group of workers worked all... day.

The last group only worked "one hour" and got the same pay as the others.

So when Jesus said, "for many be called, but few chosen", which ones in the parable are the 'called' ones, and which ones are the 'chosen' ones?

What does that final "one hour" represent? How was it different for those last workers that worked only one hour to make them "chosen"? Who do they represent in the last days?

I believe the difference between the "all day" & the "one hour" workers was that the first were jews & the latter gentiles. The gentiles will go in before the jews because they accept Christ under His new covenant while the jews denied Him. I hope that helps. I'm not gonna go deep into it because someone will counter it with their own "version" of it.

 

[Stephen63]

This is my disagreement.
If any part of salvation has to do with my will, choice, proper etiquette, strength, ability, etc. it is NOT God saving me, but me saving me.

Wrong. Placing our choices in such catagories as our strength or ability is totally incorrect.

When we come to Christ, SEVERAL ACTIONS by God take place long before we choose:

• Several ministers of the Gospel has given us the message..... How shall they hear without a preacher?
• The Holy spirit draws us to God. (Jhn 6:44).
• The Holy Spirit convicts us, or proves us guilty & that repentance & accepting Christ is the way to Salvation.
• Grace (unmerited favor), & mercy will be given to every sinner.
• When God is done, the only real conclusion left is to repent & accept Christ. Everything is provided by God..... but we must accept His plan of salvation, yes I will, or no, I won't. Every sinner will know the absolute truth. No excuses.
• NO ONE is forced to choose Christ automatically. Such teaching is a fabricated lie.

 

[DP]

I believe the difference between the "all day" & the "one hour" workers was that the first were jews & the latter gentiles. The gentiles will go in before the jews because they accept Christ under His new covenant while the jews denied Him. I hope that helps. I'm not gonna go deep into it because someone will counter it with their own "version" of it.

Interesting answer, but you should consider the group that worked only one hour were made up of both believing Jews and believing Gentiles.

 

[DP]

ALL true Christians are chosen (Eph 1.4). The point is that He has called many who have turned away because they are dead in sin so that only those 'chosen' have responded (John 5.39; and often)

whom He chose them He justified, and whom He justified them He glorified. God never does things by half measures,

So you are a chosen sent one?

Are you a Patriarch, prophet, or Apostle?

Did Jesus promise you one of the thrones over the 12 tribes of Israel that He did to His Apostles?

 

[Bladerunner]

There are many replies to the question on the first thread. The subject is something that is hard to comprehend. Here is a good way to look at it.

Draw a straight line on a piece of paper. At the beginning of the line place a Dot (on the line), Place a Dot in the middle of the line and a Dot about 1/2 way between the middle dot and the end (3/4). Yes, place a dot at the end of the line.

This line is your life. Obviously the beginning and ending dots are self-explanatory.The middle dot represents you today. In a few day, years, etc., you accept Jesus Christ. (the 3/4 dot).

Now God see you before your beginning, sees your whole life including the 3/4 dot time period and the ending dot.

Yes, God has known from "eternity past" who will accept him (elect) and who will resist him (non-elect). Yes, we have free will and can (and do) exercise that free will to the damnation of our Souls. God, on the other hand has done everything (short of making us robots, preprogrammed, no free-will) to welcome us into his heavenly home.

 

[gotime]

The fact that He knows ahead, whats the piont of giving us freewill that wont alter the outcome anyway? Isnt it like a false sense of freewill?

Does knowing something mean you make it happen?

 

[Desdichado]

Does knowing something mean you make it happen?

That's how I pad my resume.

 

[valiant]

There are many replies to the question on the first thread. The subject is something that is hard to comprehend. Here is a good way to look at it.

Draw a straight line on a piece of paper. At the beginning of the line place a Dot (on the line), Place a Dot in the middle of the line and a Dot about 1/2 way between the middle dot and the end (3/4). Yes, place a dot at the end of the line.

This line is your life. Obviously the beginning and ending dots are self-explanatory.The middle dot represents you today. In a few day, years, etc., you accept Jesus Christ. (the 3/4 dot).

Now God see you before your beginning, sees your whole life including the 3/4 dot time period and the ending dot.

Yes, God has known from "eternity past" who will accept him (elect) and who will resist him (non-elect). Yes, we have free will and can (and do) exercise that free will to the damnation of our Souls. God, on the other hand has done everything (short of making us robots, preprogrammed, no free-will) to welcome us into his heavenly home.

but if this was the basis for our election then we would have a reason for saying that we had contributed to our salvation, I.e. our supposed freewill. Then we would not be in a position to accept it freely by grace (rom 3.24). Nor would it be 'without works'. We would be elected because of some good in us. we would partly receive it as our due. That is contrary to Scripture.

 

[FStell]

There is a tension in my mind in attempt to grasp these. If there is freewill, it means your actions determine your outcome. If there is predestination, it means no matter what you do, you cant alter the outcome. But both above are mentioned in bible, which contradicts one another. Someone pls enlighten me thanks.

Your actions determine your outcome. But circumstances determine your actions.
Therefore they are both interlocked into predestination.

 

[valiant]

So you are a chosen sent one?

yes

Are you a Patriarch, prophet, or Apostle?

what has that to do with it?

Did Jesus promise you one of the thrones over the 12 tribes of Israel that He did to His Apostles?

ditto

 

[Depleted]

Wrong. Placing our choices in such catagories as our strength or ability is totally incorrect.

When we come to Christ, SEVERAL ACTIONS by God take place long before we choose:

• Several ministers of the Gospel has given us the message..... How shall they hear without a preacher?
• The Holy spirit draws us to God. (Jhn 6:44).
• The Holy Spirit convicts us, or proves us guilty & that repentance & accepting Christ is the way to Salvation.
• Grace (unmerited favor), & mercy will be given to every sinner.
• When God is done, the only real conclusion left is to repent & accept Christ. Everything is provided by God..... but we must accept His plan of salvation, yes I will, or no, I won't. Every sinner will know the absolute truth. No excuses.
• NO ONE is forced to choose Christ automatically. Such teaching is a fabricated lie.

-- Need ministers to be saved now? Really? I'd love the complete rundown on how many Ways you think there are because you keep adding to the list. And you repeat, as if repeating makes it so. I already told you Jehovah made himself known to what is now China before China became a nation. I already told you Jehovah came to what would become Rome before Italy even had city-states, once more, a multitude of gods. Who "ministered" to the people in the OT? Can they not be saved simply because you are determined Man has to have something to do with it?

-- According to you, the Holy Spirit draws us as demonstrated in John 6:44? Have you read John 6:44? Two of persons of the triune God are talked about in that verse. The Holy Spirit isn't. You're just making this up as you go.

-- Mercy is universal? You ARE very much making this up.

-- On the last one we agree. No one is forced to choose Jesus -- automatically or otherwise. We never would, so he saves despite choice.

So what you teach is the fabrication and lie. What you think I'm teaching is your personal fantasy world. If you'd ever bother to listen, you might actually know what I believe versus what you are lying about when you're trying to pin me down as the opposite of your beliefs.

 

[Depleted]

There are many replies to the question on the first thread. The subject is something that is hard to comprehend. Here is a good way to look at it.

Draw a straight line on a piece of paper. At the beginning of the line place a Dot (on the line), Place a Dot in the middle of the line and a Dot about 1/2 way between the middle dot and the end (3/4). Yes, place a dot at the end of the line.

This line is your life. Obviously the beginning and ending dots are self-explanatory.The middle dot represents you today. In a few day, years, etc., you accept Jesus Christ. (the 3/4 dot).

Now God see you before your beginning, sees your whole life including the 3/4 dot time period and the ending dot.

Yes, God has known from "eternity past" who will accept him (elect) and who will resist him (non-elect). Yes, we have free will and can (and do) exercise that free will to the damnation of our Souls. God, on the other hand has done everything (short of making us robots, preprogrammed, no free-will) to welcome us into his heavenly home.

God isn't linear.

 

[valiant]

Your actions determine your outcome. But circumstances determine your actions.
Therefore they are both interlocked into predestination.

but what have they to do with my being chosen before the foundation of the world?. Eph 1.4

 

[p_rehbein]

but what have they to do with my being chosen before the foundation of the world?. Eph 1.4

Hmm..............pray tell........why did the crucifixion of Christ have to occur as you were chosen before the foundation?

What a cruel god you serve...........sure glad he is not my God.............

your god........hey, see those people over there? they is chosen........see those people over yonder? they is not chosen. those chosen have already received eternal life..........but i'm gonna send someone to suffer and die just because i can

 

[valiant]

There are many replies to the question on the first thread. The subject is something that is hard to comprehend. Here is a good way to look at it.

Draw a straight line on a piece of paper. At the beginning of the line place a Dot (on the line), Place a Dot in the middle of the line and a Dot about 1/2 way between the middle dot and the end (3/4). Yes, place a dot at the end of the line.

This line is your life. Obviously the beginning and ending dots are self-explanatory.The middle dot represents you today. In a few day, years, etc., you accept Jesus Christ. (the 3/4 dot).

Now God see you before your beginning, sees your whole life including the 3/4 dot time period and the ending dot.

Yes, God has known from "eternity past" who will accept him (elect) and who will resist him (non-elect). Yes, we have free will and can (and do) exercise that free will to the damnation of our Souls. God, on the other hand has done everything (short of making us robots, preprogrammed, no free-will) to welcome us into his heavenly home.

He will know that on their own accord NONE will accept Him. ALL are enemies of God. He reconciles US (rom 5.10).

Therefore He will choose some to accept Him on the basis that He makes them willing. john 6.44

He justifies THE UNGODLY (Rom 4.5). They then respond by the grace of God producing willingness within them