predestination vs freewill

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Adstar

Senior Member
#41
Jul 24, 2016
7,600
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#41
Ivon said:
The fact that He knows ahead, whats the piont of giving us freewill that wont alter the outcome anyway? Isnt it like a false sense of freewill?
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Ok let my try to explain it another way..

Just imagine.. That you invented a time machine that could beam you forward in time to lets say 2050.. So you beam yourself forward and this machine crates a invisible bubble that sits in the sky above a typical suburban setting.. You look down and see two little girls having a tea party in the back yard of a house.. A woman comes out of the house with a tray of little cakes some some with strawberry icing others with choc icing.. she asks the kids what they would like.. Both girls pick the cakes with strawberry icing, So the woman put them down on their plates and foes back inside.... Now just because you traveled forward in time and saw the little girls and know many years before hand even before they where born what flavour cakes they would chose on that day have you taken their free willed decision on what cake to select away from them??? Nope the little girls made their own choices free from your control.. Likewise God can see all the worlds history from His vantage point. Just because He knows whom will choose what does not take away our free will.
 
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Ivon

Member
#42
Aug 30, 2016
66
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#42
valiant said:
where in Scripture is the idea of free will after Adam?. our wills are far from free. they are determined by our make up, our background and our predispositions, etc. and they will never freely turn towards God.

God chose those who are His from before the foundation of the world (Eph 1.4). If He had not done so none would be saved. He left to damnation those who chose damnation.
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The fact that Adam and Eve can choose to eat the fruit or not, is already a freewill isn't it? Likewise, the descendants of them, we as of now, we are free to make choices, aren't that already is considered a freewill? It doesn't need to take the bible to mention the word 'Freewill' literally in order to mean that freewill exist? Same goes for the word 'rapture', bible doesn't have that word too, but we know it exist?
 
R

RobbyEarl

Guest
#43
#43
The thought of predestination makes God un righteous
 
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Ivon

Member
#44
Aug 30, 2016
66
2
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#44
resurrection33 said:
There is no predestination. The Lord has a plan for us, but it is only realized if we follow him.
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Isn't the below is predestination for those he called? (realize its not all he called, its mentioned as 'those'). And here is the issue, what about those he did not choose? Does that mean that these unchosen ones will not be able to enter heaven even if they do follow him? likewise, those chosen ones that follow him, will be able to enter heaven no matter what they do after that?

Do you know the point im driving at?

Romans 8:29-30 tells us, “For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.” Ephesians 1:5 and 11 declare, “He predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will…In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.”
 
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RobbyEarl

Guest
#45
#45
What happened to whosoever, Yes He knows who will and who will not. But to say that God picks this one and rejects this one is not righteous
 
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Ivon

Member
#46
Aug 30, 2016
66
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#46
John146 said:
I'm not saying people are predestined for salvation. That's not what Scripture says. Let's look at the word predestination.

Pre = before and destination = final outcome

Because I have believed on the gospel of Jesus Christ, God has determined my final destination. It has not yet happened. It's in the future. My destination is the adoption which is the redemption of my body, when my corruptible has put in-corrupable and I will be changed to be in the image of Jesus Christ once and for all.

All Scriptures using the word predestined are never in reference to a person being saved, but rather, to those who are already saved and what their future holds as being in him, in Christ.
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@John, then can you share with me what is the difference between people who are chosen by Him, and people who are not? Why did God specifically mention this? Sure there is a clear distinction as to why God said those chosen, not all chosen.
 
R

RobbyEarl

Guest
#47
#47
Ivon said:
Isn't the below is predestination for those he called? (realize its not all he called, its mentioned as 'those'). And here is the issue, what about those he did not choose? Does that mean that these unchosen ones will not be able to enter heaven even if they do follow him? likewise, those chosen ones that follow him, will be able to enter heaven no matter what they do after that?

Do you know the point im driving at?

Romans 8:29-30 tells us, “For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.” Ephesians 1:5 and 11 declare, “He predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will…In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.”
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He predestined all of us, but sadly only a few accept. Your getting mixed up between foreknowledge and predestination. We all have a chance. Predestination says that you were born for hell and have no chance.
 
I

Ivon

Member
#48
Aug 30, 2016
66
2
6
#48
Adstar said:
Ok let my try to explain it another way..

Just imagine.. That you invented a time machine that could beam you forward in time to lets say 2050.. So you beam yourself forward and this machine crates a invisible bubble that sits in the sky above a typical suburban setting.. You look down and see two little girls having a tea party in the back yard of a house.. A woman comes out of the house with a tray of little cakes some some with strawberry icing others with choc icing.. she asks the kids what they would like.. Both girls pick the cakes with strawberry icing, So the woman put them down on their plates and foes back inside.... Now just because you traveled forward in time and saw the little girls and know many years before hand even before they where born what flavour cakes they would chose on that day have you taken their free willed decision on what cake to select away from them??? Nope the little girls made their own choices free from your control.. Likewise God can see all the worlds history from His vantage point. Just because He knows whom will choose what does not take away our free will.
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@Adstar maybe I should better rephrase my question in a more accurate manner. Yes you are right, the little girls still can make their own choices. But what's the point, the outcome is still the same since it has been predetermined.

So I boil down to my question:

1) if predestination exist (a specific outcome is already arranged), what is the point of giving freewill, allowing people to make choices, since it can't alter the end result.

2) if freewill can alter end results, then what's the point of predestination since the 'destination' that has been prior set, will get to be altered.
 
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jaybird88

Guest
#49
#49
Ivon said:
There is a tension in my mind in attempt to grasp these. If there is freewill, it means your actions determine your outcome. If there is predestination, it means no matter what you do, you cant alter the outcome. But both above are mentioned in bible, which contradicts one another. Someone pls enlighten me thanks.
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pretty sure the Lord knows exactly where we are going the minute we are born long before we are "in Christ".

predestination just means the Lord knows the outcome and we still have free will. if you were standing on a tall building watching a parade go by, you could easily see the path the parade is taking, however a person marching in the middle of the parade may have no clue what path thay are going to take, does that mean they loose their free will? our Lord, from where He is sitting can see our paths as well.
 
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RobbyEarl

Guest
#50
#50
He knows the decisions we are going to make tomorrow. When jesus expired His last, He said Father forgive them for they know not what they do. Even the ones that were predestined to hang Him on the cross, had the opportunity to accept Him and some did.
 
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Ivon

Member
#51
Aug 30, 2016
66
2
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#51
If the Bible did not mention about predestination, about choosing certain people, I can easily grasp freewill. But the thing is I just can't find harmony between these 2 terms.

I know the Bible is the word of God and I have no rights to question it, but I still have to try and clear this confusion because I anticipate there will be many people who will be asking me about the same question when I try to share the gospel with them.
 
I

Ivon

Member
#52
Aug 30, 2016
66
2
6
#52
jaybird88 said:
pretty sure the Lord knows exactly where we are going the minute we are born long before we are "in Christ".

predestination just means the Lord knows the outcome and we still have free will. if you were standing on a tall building watching a parade go by, you could easily see the path the parade is taking, however a person marching in the middle of the parade may have no clue what path thay are going to take, does that mean they loose their free will? our Lord, from where He is sitting can see our paths as well.
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@Jaybird, isn't that suppose to be foreknowledge instead? Is 'Predestination' not suppose to mean that God has already set a person's destiny/final destination?
 
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Ivon

Member
#53
Aug 30, 2016
66
2
6
#53
RobbyEarl said:
He knows the decisions we are going to make tomorrow. When jesus expired His last, He said Father forgive them for they know not what they do. Even the ones that were predestined to hang Him on the cross, had the opportunity to accept Him and some did.
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@RobbyEarl, I get your point. So this is the concern I have, then what is the point of predestining this person since in the end, he can alter his destiny by his actions??
 
R

RobbyEarl

Guest
#54
#54
Ivon said:
If the Bible did not mention about predestination, about choosing certain people, I can easily grasp freewill. But the thing is I just can't find harmony between these 2 terms.

I know the Bible is the word of God and I have no rights to question it, but I still have to try and clear this confusion because I anticipate there will be many people who will be asking me about the same question when I try to share the gospel with them.
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Look man, God knows every person that will be saved and every person that will not be saved. Look, when God put Adam and Eve in the garden. He knew that they would eat of the tree. Yet He let them play it out and be their own choice. He did not force them to eat of the tree, yet he knew they would. God created Satan, knowing what he would do. God id a righteous God and no one can point the finger at Him. He died on a tree to set us free if by our will we accept it.
 
wattie

wattie

Senior Member
#55
Feb 24, 2009
3,258
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New Zealand
#55
God has plans and destinies that He has pre-set.

He pre-set the system of churches for a believer to join if they will. And these churches have a pre-set destiny. (Not talking about building by the way.. but the likes of the church at Jerusalem... Antioch.. Ephesus.. Corinth etc..)

He Has a pre-set plan for Israel in the end times.

God has pre-set entrance to heaven for whoever is convicted and then receives the Holy Spirit. Convicted by the Holy Spirit.. then the individual responds by entrusting their salvation with Jesus. An entrance to heaven is pre-set.

It is then up to the individual to build treasure in heaven.. a better place in heaven.. rather than building wood hay and stubble and being given entrance to heaven but missing rewards.

Free will part-- receiving eternal life.. God doesn't violate man's free will to save someone. He convicts them.. and then they respond. Romans 10:9-10.

So the pre-set part-- entrance to heaven set for anyone who does believe.

The free will part is the individual being faithful to God or not..determining their rewards in heaven.

But remember that God owns the salvation.. and it was given by Him. So an individuals free will can't be used to forfeit eternal life.

God HASN'T pre-set some people to get saved and the rest are eternally seperated from Him. That is violating humans will.. that isn't love.

God does give everyone person a chance to be eternally saved.

Also in God pre-setting things-- there are the covenants in the OT and their is the Abrahamic promise. These were planned in advance regardless of man's will.. but men could be part of those covenants and promises. The end of the covenants was dependent on man, but not God's plan to initiate them and His plan to maintain them.

God had and still has these figurative huge 'buses' I suppose you could call it.. that men could get on and can get on.

Some have been and gone.. like the OT system of service. Some are still in action like the NT system of service in churches.

God propels them-- He has pre-set places for them.. but men can get on them with their free will :)

E.g. God had a plan to re-unite Israel as one nation. Prophesied way before. This was pre-set. This though, did not mean that every single Jew then automatically were there when the nation was made one. They had to get 'on the bus' as it were. They had to go from where-ever they were around the world.. back to the former area known as Israel.

So with eternal salvation--

Yes.. entrance to heaven is pre-set for those who believe in Jesus. But that doesn't mean God automatically saves them against their will. They respond to conviction and are then given a seat on the bus to heaven.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#57
Jan 13, 2016
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#57
Ivon said:
@John, then can you share with me what is the difference between people who are chosen by Him, and people who are not? Why did God specifically mention this? Sure there is a clear distinction as to why God said those chosen, not all chosen.
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Please share any Scripture where it says God chose someone to get saved. It's not there. The adoption is not salvation. Romans 8 and Ephesians 1 is not dealing with salvation matters.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#58
Jan 13, 2016
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#58
Ephesians 1

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints (Paul is talking to already saved people) which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Who has He chosen? Those of us in him. In whom? In Christ. Before the foundation of the world God chose Jesus Christ as the way to bring heavenly blessings to man because of sin. God had a solution in place. Those of us that would be "in him" would be chosen to receive these heavenly blessings. The choosing is in accord to the heavenly blessings in Christ. The verse does not say that He chose us to be in Him before the foundation of the world.

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
He has predestined those in Him for what? The adoption. What's the adoption? See Romans 8:23.

And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. The adoption is something we are waiting for. It's a future event for those in Him. It is the redemption of our bodies.Ephesians 1
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

12 That we (those in him) should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted (in order to be in him one must first trust in Christ. Then that person is predestined for the adoption) in Christ.

 
resurrection33

resurrection33

Banned
#59
Dec 19, 2009
27,513
128
0
71
#59
Ivon said:
Isn't the below is predestination for those he called? (realize its not all he called, its mentioned as 'those'). And here is the issue, what about those he did not choose? Does that mean that these unchosen ones will not be able to enter heaven even if they do follow him? likewise, those chosen ones that follow him, will be able to enter heaven no matter what they do after that?

Do you know the point im driving at?

Romans 8:29-30 tells us, “For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.” Ephesians 1:5 and 11 declare, “He predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will…In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.”
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You have to understand God. He is motivated only by love. He wants everyone to enter heaven. All we have to do is obey the commandments. If we sin he will forgive us, but we need to obey the commandments.
 
D

DP

Banned
#60
Sep 27, 2015
3,325
41
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#60
Ivon said:
@John you didn answer my qus directly. Bible did say God has chosen some people to be saved, didnt mention all. So my question is, if these chosen ones are going to heaven after accepting Christ, does that mean that their subsequent actions will not alter this outcome of entering heaven? And if that happens, what is the purpose of freewill?
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Read John 17 where Jesus made a distinction between His elect disciples which The Father foreknew and gave to Him. Jesus compares that to another group who would believe on Him through their 'word' (i.e., preaching). The first group represents His chosen elect.

Apostle Paul is still the best example of a chosen elect, because he was busy persecuting the Church when Jesus struck him down on the road to Damascus. Jesus said Paul was His "chosen vessel" to preach The Gospel to the Gentiles, to kings, and to the children of Israel (Acts 9). That is an example of direct divine intervention.

When God told Jonah to go preach to Nineveh, and Jonah tried to get out it, God still made him do it. That is direct divine intervention of a chosen sent one.

Those God had chosen before the foundation of this world, He already sanctified like Paul said in Romans 8. These already belong to Him. He owns them and gave them to Jesus, so now Jesus owns them (John 17). That's why He can step in to make them do the duty He gives them. These cannot be deceived.

But those who believe on Jesus through their preaching, it's a different story, for these are called only, not chosen sent ones. To be called only, and not chosen, means one can worship whoever they want and God will not influence their will. He will only intervene if they ask. These can be deceived.
 
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