Prayer intervenes Freewill
- Thread starter Ivon
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@Magenta, Im just giving an example. Whether or not its in line with God's will, we wont know for now, but certainly there will be times somehow God is willing to answer our prayer based on personal desire. So in this case, asssuming Lisa falling in love with me is part of His will, isn it by orchestrating that from God is disrupting Lisa's freewill?
God cannot disrupt, intervene, whatever, ANYONE'S free will. He gave us free will, he can't revoke it or stand in it's way..
And thats exactly why I am asking this qus right now, isnt Him answering our prayer is in a way as good as disrupting the freewill of someone's else? Like for Lisa's instance.
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eph610
Guest
Your example is not a prayer.
Prayer is not asking God for personal stuff...Prayer is an intimate 2-way communication between you and Father.
Yes, I understand it was just an example and I was simply building on your example. You may pray for something that is well within God's will for your life. All things work for the good of those who love God, right? Lisa still has a choice. I have seen a lot of misunderstanding around the choices we have and self will versus God's will. Some people will say that everything happens according to the will of God as if He were forcing us to actually break His commandments. I see His will operating in three separate ways: sovereign, moral, and permissive. His moral will is that we love one another. That is plainly seen in Scripture. How that love manifests may be as life partners or simply friends or even not having anything much to do with each other. Having things work out as per your prayers does not mean you forced God's hand in any way, or Lisa's either.
Ok @eph I use another example then. I pray for a surgeon who is capable of successfully removing the tumor of my grandpa & he did. Without this prayer, by default with the standard of the surgeon, he could have failed the operation. So by God orchestrating the surgeon's move/mind to remove the tumor in an effective way, isnt this considered interfering with the surgeon's default skill, mind - ultimately is freewill isn it
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eph610
Guest
No it's not a violation of freewill, because the surgeon is not healing Gramps...........God is.
@Magenta, lets put aside the definition of God's will etc. Ok in the bible there is a part where God purposely hardened pharaohs heart so that he would not free the slaves... Ok in this example, isnt God interfering the Pharaoh's freewill by influencing his mind and heart directly?
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eph610
Guest
Exodus 3.19 God tells Moses....
[SUP]19 [/SUP]But I know that the king of Egypt will not permit you to go, except under compulsion.
This does not violate free will of Pharaoh's because his heart was already hardened....
He did:
Exodus 7:3-4 says, “But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt he will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and with mighty acts of judgment I will bring out my people the Israelites.”
God may plant a seed in the person's heart because of your prayers but it's still their free will to act upon that seed or not.
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eph610
Guest
you are missing my point because you want to make it about being elected and not free will....Exodus 3.19 shows us that there was now way Pharaoh was going to let the people go, so God simply used what he had to work with....an already hardened heart and he made it harder.
If Pharaoh was open to letting the people Go and then God hardened a soft heart then you might have an example.
Isnt this the same as saying God's intervention is not sufficient enough as its still primarily depends on the targeted person's after action?
Ok then what about God causing the big fish to swallow Jonah who was obviously running away from God's instruction? How is this not disrupting his freewill?
People often overlook the fact that Pharaoh hardened his own heart SIX TIMES before God further hardened it. Pharaoh was set in his ways and not really willing to allow Moses to have his way as per the will of God. Pharaoh did not believe Moses even after all the miracles that had happened through the working of the plagues that had in fact defeated the pantheon of Egyptian gods. However you look at it, Pharaoh was not aligned with the will of God. He himself was considered a god, and he still believed in his false idols, even after their complete defeat, and in his own power. How else would you explain his going after the people after he had finally allowed them to leave? God did harden Pharaoh's heart but God did not force him to do the things he chose to do as a result of his hardened heart.
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