Charismatic - Losing Faith (Healing)

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BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
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that IS a cop out. You are saying that men have faith to be eternally saved but not to be healed. It would suggest to me that they are not therefore eternally save, for their faith is not right.

To say that healing is there to be claimed as already having taken place is against the teaching of the Gospels. It is a future prospect not a present one, of which His healing was a foretaste.

As you can minster healing minister it to me and to my wife. And if you can't, shut up because you are showing your own falsehood,
I respectfully disagree. I understand this can be a sensitive topic, however and clearly revealed from your animosity. I am not saying that it is always the responsibility of the sick individual to believe, but even so, just the minister himself. A dead man has no faith when he is raised from the dead, it was the faith of the one doing the raising. I don't know if I could be so bold and be in compassion to heal you and your wife, set a date and have it be done. Yet I know of people who go around and heal the sick all the time. It would be amazing for you to come across such a person and witness healing for today. :)

Sure pride would say, "Set a date and location, I will prove you wrong" but the source of that intent is impure. I would much rather be moved by compassion for you and your wife. Then see the healing than to just prove you wrong. Healing is for today, believe. Jesus purchased it for you.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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People can see their sickness with their eyes and so healing through Christ for them goes against their perceived reality. So the reason healing can be hindered is that one must have faith for the healing that is contrary to what they are seeing in the natural. Their surroundings, or circumstances go completely contrary to what they are believing for. So, they must choose God's word over their circumstance. They must believe He is faithful and true. He will reward them.
and I say you are talking humbug. Eternal salvation is against all natural reason and yet people can believe that God saves them eternally by the Spirit. Besides that physical healing is easy.

Years ago I 'chose God's word over circumstance' following your glib advice. I was sure He was going to heal, so much so that I lost my faith for a while because He did not. If that was not having faith as a grain of mustard seed what was?

I have learned better since. God heals as He chooses. And most 'healings' of today are not His. they are psychosomatic,

you prove it different by ministering healing to me IF YOU CAN
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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People can see their sickness with their eyes and so healing through Christ for them goes against their perceived reality. So the reason healing can be hindered is that one must have faith for the healing that is contrary to what they are seeing in the natural. Their surroundings, or circumstances go completely contrary to what they are believing for. So, they must choose God's word over their circumstance. They must believe He is faithful and true. He will reward them.
And yet God heals the unbeliever as well.

Healing has nothing to do with the person who is infirmed. Healing has only to do with the righteousness of God. In healing or not healing the goodness of God is revealed.

Do not mistake religion for faith nor superstition for belief. God moves according to His purpose alone. If you think you are able to manipulate God then God will give you over to that belief. It results in condemnation but God will allow you to do as you will in the matter.

Ro 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
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UnderGrace

Guest
That verse simply says that Jesus work was a foretaste of His final future work. There in nothing in it about 'taking it be faith. You are reading that into it with no scriptural warrant.l
Agreed, this is what is happening, that seems to be the case when it comes to all this signs and wonders stuff, makes me sad really.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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I respectfully disagree. I understand this can be a sensitive topic, however and clearly revealed from your animosity. I am not saying that it is always the responsibility of the sick individual to believe, but even so, just the minister himself. A dead man has no faith when he is raised from the dead, it was the faith of the one doing the raising. I don't know if I could be so bold and be in compassion to heal you and your wife, set a date and have it be done. Yet I know of people who go around and heal the sick all the time. It would be amazing for you to come across such a person and witness healing for today. :)

Sure pride would say, "Set a date and location, I will prove you wrong" but the source of that intent is impure. I would much rather be moved by compassion for you and your wife. Then see the healing than to just prove you wrong. Healing is for today, believe. Jesus purchased it for you.
I believed once. Do you want me to lose faith again? If you knew what it meant to be moved with compassion you would do so. But it is all so much talk and no reality. You talk of healings but you do not heal. How different from your Master. Talk is easy. But Jesus never refused those who came to him with a glimmer of faith.

No it is not pride, it is compassion, but you have none. You can do nothing apart from pointing to the spurious miracles of so called healers. Your healing ministry is a sham, and I say that not from hardness of heart but from interpreting your own words.. You are the one who is to blame that we cannot be healed,
 
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eph610

Guest
I was diagnosed with heart disease and told I needed bypass surgery 4.5 years ago. I started going to a charismatic/Kenneth E Hagin-like church a few months after my diagnosis. They believe strongly in laying hands on people and healing.

I went up for healing...believed that I received it...testified to being healed for years...got into leadership...and even left my job to be on staff. A few months ago I started having chest pains, after a series of doctor visits and another angiogram my heart has gotten worse.

I'm fighting to believe all that I've learned...but I'm definitely doubting divine healing...what I REALLY don't like...is it's causing me to doubt almost everything I hear or read. I find myself rolling my eyes at testimonies or people encouraging others with scripture or sayings. Any time I hear a charismatic preacher on tv or YouTube I question what they say. I feel like I'm losing my faith in God. He has to be real.

I really need someone who knows their charismatic apologetics. Please don't waste my time or yours if all you have to chime in with is a bible verse with a short saying attached to it like "John 10:10 the enemy is just trying to kill you"

I need something way solid and explained in detail. Please. Thank you so much!
The WOF movement and all they teach is false. They place faith into faith instead of faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ. Show me anywhere in the Bible that Jesus said you will never have tribulations or trouble here on earth, this would include the writing of James, Paul and Peter

We spent 1 year in a small rural WOF church and learned a lot and left armed with knowledge about how dangerous their entire movement is. I believe you are also suffering from severe condemnation from those in that type of movement. That is the real sad part, the way they must pretend to have it all together at all times or their fellow wolves will tear them apart.

It will add fire to this OP, but friend, if God allows a health crisis to come upon you so that he may be glorified, count it all joy, trust God at his word and you will come out of the other side of this trial.

Private message me if you want to talk about this further.
 
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UnderGrace

Guest
Thank you for posting this, Truly!

There seems to be this movement afoot and I guess has been around for a while, of the return of the apostolic era bringing with it healing, signs and wonders.

The grace of God is not only damaged by the message of the law keepers but also by those who seek to add to the completed work of salvation by saying that believers, now in this life, have no disease if they only believe, and it is human reason and the carnal mind that inhibit the greater works of God in the life of the believer.

Surely this teaching of health, wealth and prosperity is set up by the enemy to create despair in the life of the believer not greater faith.






The WOF movement and all they teach is false. They place faith into faith instead of faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ. Show me anywhere in the Bible that Jesus said you will never have tribulations or trouble here on earth, this would include the writing of James, Paul and Peter

We spent 1 year in a small rural WOF church and learned a lot and left armed with knowledge about how dangerous their entire movement is. I believe you are also suffering from severe condemnation from those in that type of movement. That is the real sad part, the way they must pretend to have it all together at all times or their fellow wolves will tear them apart.

It will add fire to this OP, but friend, if God allows a health crisis to come upon you so that he may be glorified, count it all joy, trust God at his word and you will come out of the other side of this trial.

Private message me if you want to talk about this further.
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
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I believed once. Do you want me to lose faith again? If you knew what it meant to be moved with compassion you would do so. But it is all so much talk and no reality. You talk of healings but you do not heal. How different from your Master. Talk is easy. But Jesus never refused those who came to him with a glimmer of faith.

No it is not pride, it is compassion, but you have none. You can do nothing apart from pointing to the spurious miracles of so called healers. Your healing ministry is a sham, and I say that not from hardness of heart but from interpreting your own words.. You are the one who is to blame that we cannot be healed,
You'd be surprised to know, I take full responsibility. Thank you for your words of encouragement to take action. The Lord has spoken in times past of me doubting the gifts He has given me. Thank you for the reminder.
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
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Thank you for posting this, Truly!

There seems to be this movement afoot and I guess has been around for a while, of the return of the apostolic era bringing with it healing, signs and wonders.

The grace of God is not only damaged by the message of the law keepers but also by those who seek to add to the completed work of salvation by saying that believers, now in this life, have no disease if they only believe, and it is human reason and the carnal mind that inhibit the greater works of God in the life of the believer.

Surely this teaching of health, wealth and prosperity is set up by the enemy to create despair in the life of the believer not greater faith.
People aren't saying they have no disease. They are saying if they do have disease they can be healed. This is in accordance with scripture.
 
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UnderGrace

Guest
Early disciples did get sick, but they do today as well. But Scripture is clear if you do get sick, prayer shall restore you.

And what if it does not? What if you die instead?

This is a quite a nice little schema that has been built by some preachers on the world stage, however, I have seen many faithful servants with great faith in the Lord die from disease and injury.

Why is there this need to deny reality it does not diminish God and His love you know? (Rhetorical question)


 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
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Is it any wonder that those that believe in signs, wonders, and healing experience such things and those of the camp of Cessationism do not? Jesus Himself said ye of little faith to people for their doubt. The fact that people don't experience such things confirms the word in reference to the importance of belief, faith, hope, and expectation. For a person to disregard such things, may God have mercy and open their eyes to His goodness.

It is ironic that those who profess such things do not exist, or are not for today, are the very ones not experiencing it. They do not see it, but it is for that very reason of disbelief that they do not experience it. They think first they must see it, then they will believe but God asks us to step out in faith and then see His mighty works.

They say God doesn't bless us financially, all the while they do not tithe. They say God doesn't heal, all the while not laying hands on the sick in faith because they do not even believe in it. They hope, but have no faith in God's willingness to heal based upon Christ. You see, this is why belief is paramount to our walk and why it pleases God for us to have faith. This is why people need to take God at His word, and see that He is not a liar. He is indeed faithful.
 
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UnderGrace

Guest
People aren't saying they have no disease. They are saying if they do have disease they can be healed. This is in accordance with scripture.
Well there is a big difference between can and will. And to say it is always God's will to heal is not in scripture and I already posted those situations.

So before you said we do not have disease because Jesus bore our disease and infirmities but now we do have disease?

Well if this is true it should have come as a package deal when I was saved, but it seems to me I still get a cold now and then.

Do you not realize that if we say that Jesus also bore our sickness then it is logical to say that sickness needs atonement and one of the aspects of atonement is the appeasement or satisfaction of the wrath of God against sinners then those who are sick would have reason to feel particularly subject to God's wrath because of being sick.

That is a terrible thing to lay on someone all because of some preachers twisted theology who made money promoting all this stuff.
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
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Well there is a big difference between can and will. And to say it is always God's will to heal is not in scripture and I already posted those situations.

So before you said we do not have disease because Jesus bore our disease and infirmities but now we do have disease?

Well if this is true it should have come as a package deal when I was saved, but it seems to me I still get a cold now and then.

Do you not realize that if we say that Jesus also bore our sickness then it is logical to say that sickness needs atonement and one of the aspects of atonement is the appeasement or satisfaction of the wrath of God against sinners then those who are sick would have reason to feel particularly subject to God's wrath because of being sick.

That is a terrible thing to lay on someone all because of some preachers twisted theology who made money promoting all this stuff.
I said no such thing. I say that while we may have disease or sickness God is more than willing to heal us through Jesus Christ. That is faith.
 
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UnderGrace

Guest
Well dear brother,

This is not about lack of faith but about rightly dividing the word of God, and will I am still learning and have much much to learn, I know enough to know, what is being promoted out there by false teachers who have done great harm to the body of Christ as evidenced even here on this discussion board.

It takes stronger faith to endure the trials and be purified by them and know His grace is sufficient.




Is it any wonder that those that believe in signs, wonders, and healing experience such things and those of the camp of Cessationism do not? Jesus Himself said ye of little faith to people for their doubt. The fact that people don't experience such things confirms the word in reference to the importance of belief, faith, hope, and expectation. For a person to disregard such things, may God have mercy and open their eyes to His goodness.

It is ironic that those who profess such things do not exist, or are not for today, are the very ones not experiencing it. They do not see it, but it is for that very reason of disbelief that they do not experience it. They think first they must see it, then they will believe but God asks us to step out in faith and then see His mighty works.

They say God doesn't bless us financially, all the while they do not tithe. They say God doesn't heal, all the while not laying hands on the sick in faith because they do not even believe in it. They hope, but have no faith in God's willingness to heal based upon Christ. You see, this is why belief is paramount to our walk and why it pleases God for us to have faith. This is why people need to take God at His word, and see that He is not a liar. He is indeed faithful.
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
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Well dear brother,

This is not about lack of faith but about rightly dividing the word of God, and will I am still learning and have much much to learn, I know enough to know, what is being promoted out there by false teachers who have done great harm to the body of Christ as evidenced even here on this discussion board.

It takes stronger faith to endure the trials and be purified by them and know His grace is sufficient.

It takes perseverance and endurance, but I wouldn't necessarily say "stronger faith." The stronger faith is the faith that grants deliverance. That may come off as offensive, and I don't mean it to. I simply mean that while a person can step out on water, and then drown they surely have to persevere and endure the suffering as it goes on until someone picks them up; while the one that is with strong faith can walk above the waters.

Again, I understand it seems like I am attacking a person's faith, but you must understand that far too often because people do not have an understanding of the healing that Jesus attained through His flesh for us, they only hope God heals them instead of believing that He will (or even has... another topic).

Many people will confess they believe God can heal them, and that is all good and well, but where faith, as like rubber, meets the road is in knowing His willingness to heal them. Not only can He, but that He will. In knowing that He will, they stand in faith waiting to receive what they know He is willing to give. It is theirs. They will experience His healing touch.
 
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UnderGrace

Guest
but you must understand that far too often because people do not have an understanding of the healing that Jesus attained through His flesh for us,

For sure, not the healing you write about, because it does not exist, the healing of Jesus is spiritual not physical.

Having said that, if we are living/abiding in Him, as we should, we would have less sin, so then less opportunity for disease related to sin to happen, but that is as far as I will go.

We live in a fallen world where many things that can make us sick!




It takes perseverance and endurance, but I wouldn't necessarily say "stronger faith." The stronger faith is the faith that grants deliverance. That may come off as offensive, and I don't mean it to. I simply mean that while a person can step out on water, and then drown they surely have to persevere and endure the suffering as it goes on until someone picks them up; while the one that is with strong faith can walk above the waters.

Again, I understand it seems like I am attacking a person's faith, but you must understand that far too often because people do not have an understanding of the healing that Jesus attained through His flesh for us, they only hope God heals them instead of believing that He will (or even has... another topic).

Many people will confess they believe God can heal them, and that is all good and well, but where faith, as like rubber, meets the road is in knowing His willingness to heal them. Not only can He, but that He will. In knowing that He will, they stand in faith waiting to receive what they know He is willing to give. It is theirs. They will experience His healing touch.
 
L

ladylynn

Guest

And what if it does not? What if you die instead?

This is a quite a nice little schema that has been built by some preachers on the world stage, however, I have seen many faithful servants with great faith in the Lord die from disease and injury.

Why is there this need to deny reality it does not diminish God and His love you know? (Rhetorical question)





Yes, that old question everyone on planet earth has asked at some point in life and many still continue to ask it even though it produces no good thing. It's a question that has defeated me before I even walked out the door many times. It encases fear and doubt and confusion. It's a faithless question to me. Theee "what if?" question.

What if God doesn't do what He promises? What if a bomb goes off in my car? What if I get cancer? What if someone attacks me on my way to work tonight? What if I get some flesh eating disease?.... and on I can go with the what ifs as long as the enemy is free to throw a million my way and I foolishly catch them. I no longer have to take them Praise God! And better yet., God has told me not to take them.
:)

I've found that asking the 'what if' question when God's Word is clear on the mater is a major unwise place to go. There are millions of different reasons why things happen in the world just as there are millions of people and millions of situations Xs 10,000 Xs 20,000. I have no business looking in the world and asking God what if.

He has already answered me. He has given me enough grace to get through today and that is where I must live. He has not given me grace for tomorrow yet. So to live there is not wise since I'm not there yet. I'm here right now and Jesus said He is the Great I Am. He IS right now and gives total rest right now. And He says that rest satisfies the soul. And it surly does.

Does He want me to look at other people who are suffering and fear it might happen to me? NO. Does He want me to dwell on anything but His promises? NO. He instructs me to look to Jesus for my answers. Answers even the most faithful believers can't answer for me.

The only reality I have to have especially in this world with it's untruths, confusion and contradictions., is Jesus will take care of me just as He promised and I will not entertain "what if" questions... that is when I deny and diminish His promises in my life. That is when I open a door to the enemy of my soul.
Why should any of us do that and allow our enemy to waltz in?

There is a need to deny asking "what if God doesn't come through for me"
 
Nov 22, 2015
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.........healing is definitely in the true gospel message.....as can be seen when Paul preached the gospel in Lystra. in Acts 14.

Acts 14:7-10 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] and there
they continued to preach the gospel.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]
At Lystra a man was sitting who had no strength in his feet, lame from his mother's womb, who had never walked.

[SUP]9 [/SUP] This man was listening to Paul as he spoke, who, when he had fixed his gaze on him and
had seen that he had faith to be made well,

[SUP]10 [/SUP]
said with a loud voice, "Stand upright on your feet." And he leaped up and began to walk.

Paul was preaching the GOSPEL.... the man lame was listening to Paul and then he had faith to be made whole...

Where did this man get faith to be made whole in his body?

Where does faith come from?

Romans 10:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

The man that was lame from birth heard in the preaching of the gospel of the grace of Christ that he could be made whole. He believed...Paul saw it in him and encouraged him to act on his faith.

Healing is a part of the gospel of the grace of Christ as the being born-again is and the forgiveness of sins.
 
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eph610

Guest
Thank you for posting this, Truly!

There seems to be this movement afoot and I guess has been around for a while, of the return of the apostolic era bringing with it healing, signs and wonders.

The grace of God is not only damaged by the message of the law keepers but also by those who seek to add to the completed work of salvation by saying that believers, now in this life, have no disease if they only believe, and it is human reason and the carnal mind that inhibit the greater works of God in the life of the believer.

Surely this teaching of health, wealth and prosperity is set up by the enemy to create despair in the life of the believer not greater faith.
I Just walked through a health crisis. I woke up a few months ago with what I thought was a stiff neck, went to use the rest room and then found myself on the floor and had went into shock immediately with one of the most intense pains in my life.

4 hours later Chiropractor[also born gain and spirit filled] confirmed I had herniated the C6 disk in my neck. The disk had also rotated 180 degrees and wrapped the nerves and muscles on the left side of my shoulder, arm, hand and neck around itself. I could only place my left hand on my head to relieve the intense pain, that reaction is called the Bakody sign.

The MRI justified immediate and necessary neck surgery, but we could not get peace from the Lord on that option and instead trusted him. Our fellow christian brother chiropractor said something powerful, he said we will both stand on the Word for your healing and I will due my part as your Dr. and you do your part by trusting in the Lord with all your heart.

My pastor and elders all laid hands on me and prayed the prayer of healing, which I received. My healing was not instant and in fact I am still not 100%, but getting stronger every day. At around the 5th week, the Bakody sign stopped, but I could not use my left hand or arm and the pain was causing severe fatigue.

At around the 7th week I could not use my left arm and hand very, it had severe numbness running through it. The pain was the worst I had experienced with this wound. I remember laying in bed , meditating and confessing on all the healing scriptures and worshiping God and counting the trial all joy. God spoke to me in my Spirit and told me that my faith was evident and it pleased him, but I did not have to continually remind him of his word.

He asked me do you believe that my Spirit can heal you of your wounds & restore your health. I said YES Lord, He said Son, I want to remind you that faith is not reminding me of my word,always confessing my word, faith is simply resting in the fact I will do what I say I will....Weeping joyfully I said, Father....I now rest in you and your word....That very second, I encountered a peace I had not encountered ever in this type of situation, a Peace that kept sweeping over my body in warm waves.It continued, almost like it was rocking me to sleep. Before this happened it was difficult for me to sleep at all and what little I got was interrupted because my body was warring so badly with itself. I remember drifting to sleep as the peace kept waving
over me and it was about 10am. My wife woke me up at noon the next day and said I never moved once and she was crying tears of Joy. Without thinking my left arm and hand were working and the numbness was not as bad. I got to my doctor and while he was checking me out he looked at me with tears in his eyes and big smile and said, you had a visitor last night huh?

My left arm and hand were radically working and the disk was not protruding from the back of my neck and was in place. Another xray showed the herniation was going down.

I started work again last week, after being out of work for several months. I had STD insurance, which paid a lot lower than my salary, but every financial need was met. We never named and claimed anything for my health or our finances, we simply entered into rest based on belief.

Faith is not loud and proud, naming and claiming, confessing a blessing.

Faith is resting in the belief that what is unseen is already at work on your behalf. It is resting in the fact that Jesus paid it all.

I was not radically instantly healed, I walked through a fiery trial and when you count it all joy, you begin to understand what a blessing it is that God allowed you to be like Job. To be considered worthy of all that Satan thinks he can throw at you, while the Father already knows that your faith will see you through.

I say this to those here on his chat board that claim God does not use sickness, injury, or physical trauma to refine your character:

You cannot truly move in compassion to help correct a broken condition a person faces in a health crisis, unless you have been there and done it.

God uses doctors, medicine and many other practical things as gifts of healing, he also can and will heal instantly[I have witnessed it on others]

The greatest Lesson I learned was that most times with a health crisis, God is using it to refine your character or prove to Satan that though he slay me I will trust him and I will not be shaken or moved by the physical.....because my trust is based on nothing less than Jesus Christ and his righteousness!

Somebody on this thread asked me about this topic and I hope this helped you... I give it all back to the Father.
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
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For sure, not the healing you write about, because it does not exist, the healing of Jesus is spiritual not physical.

Having said that, if we are living/abiding in Him, as we should, we would have less sin, so then less opportunity for disease related to sin to happen, but that is as far as I will go.

We live in a fallen world where many things that can make us sick!
Jesus Christ's life and ministry disagree with you.