Charismatic - Losing Faith (Healing)

[pottersclay]

LOL! I always strongly disliked *cough* hated *cough* that concept where people said they were going through a "Job experience" or someone in the church says it of another. VVhat you just said is hilarious and a great retort. "Oh, you are going through a Job experience? Tell me when you are healed and receive double." That made me laugh.

I just find the concept, in consideration of a post-cross view, unsettling when people think the devil has a sway on God's blessing in our lives when in Christ Jesus the promises of God are "Yes" and "Amen." It just irked me.

Like it brother like it alot....I heard it said by a pastor one time that if you think that your such a big threat to the devil that he would have to come at you full force.....well he said don't flatter yourself.
The story of job is far from this concept if read correctly. It's not the story of good vrs evil .

 

[popeye]

LOL! I always strongly disliked *cough* hated *cough* that concept where people said they were going through a "Job experience" or someone in the church says it of another. VVhat you just said is hilarious and a great retort. "Oh, you are going through a Job experience? Tell me when you are healed and receive double." That made me laugh.

I just find the concept, in consideration of a post-cross view, unsettling when people think the devil has a sway on God's blessing in our lives when in Christ Jesus the promises of God are "Yes" and "Amen." It just irked me.

Very true

The only exception is in departing into sin,and the level of that believers maturity.

 

[popeye]

I must be pretty simple, cause I missed that conclusion...

You mean, like when he worked through Moses AND Aaron? Or Paul and Barnabas?

I still don't get it.. Probably never will..

David.Samuel passed over the entire kingdom to anoint him.

Mary the mother of Jesus. She was chosen.Why were all others passed by?

The man at the pool of saloam. Why him?

God will pick one man/woman


Over and over and over

 

[popeye]

Originally Posted by Ariel82

If we don't look towards eternal life with Christ, we are shortsighted.

If we teach people to lust after things of this world instead of store up treasurers in heaven, we are teaching adultery with the world and are enemies to God.

Yes I hear you. But we don't desire things of the world, we desire things of God. And that includes the things He wants to give us. Sometimes the church teaches don't DESIRE ANYTHING, but that's gnostic thinking. Remember it was Jesus who said He gives us the desire of our heart and that our joy may be full. This doesn't mean we get them APART from God, that's another lie of independence. But look at it like this, if you don't feel like God wants to bless you, what testimony will you give when you are blessed? This allows ANOTHER lie to creep in which is orphanism, which teaches if you want to make something of yourself you have to work HARD and then people will teach that they need to work hard to get ahead in life. This is commonly taught today because of rampant gnosticism in the church. God is not ONLY in the church, He is at work with us, He is with us everywhere we go. And everything we receive we give Him blessing! Including healing and provision.

A lot of people say seek first the Kingdom, but then have a huge problem when "all these things" get added.

C.

It is a pendulum shift.

Since some pervert blessing they recieve,all blessing is bad.

*********Swing it to the other side**********

Since poverty is a curse,lets worship money.

Both extremes or perversions of God's kingdom..



edit; not saying either of you are doing that

 

[Cee]

Well said.

There is a tension between both. That's where Holy Spirit guides us not principles in Scripture only.

He knows where we are perverted in our thinking, Scripture tells us the reward for fruitfulness is pruning.

It is a pendulum shift.

Since some pervert blessing they recieve,all blessing is bad.

*********Swing it to the other side**********

Since poverty is a curse,lets worship money.

Both extremes or perversions of God's kingdom..



edit; not saying either of you are doing that

 

[Silverwings]

Well said.

There is a tension between both. That's where Holy Spirit guides us not principles in Scripture only.

He knows where we are perverted in our thinking, Scripture tells us the reward for fruitfulness is pruning.

Scripture tells us the reward for fruitfulness is pruning.

I thought what it teaches is the exact opposite, that pruning comes as a result of non-fruitfulness?

I will look it up tomorrow, it is late tonight.

Sorry, you were right, I was wrong!!

He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.

 

[PeterJens]

Angiograms are fairly invasive and not super fun so I wasn't real keen on getting one. I'm still a candidate - so 4.5 years ago I had 3 completely blocked arteries (possible triple bypass) at the ripe ol age of 31....now I'm 36 and was told "they've gotten worse"

Too young for this, Lord! No family history, no drugs, no reason why I should have it.

Scientists have discovered that when mothers have a restricted diet in pregnancy they create children
who have a very high fat content in their bodies though they are thin. This leads to heart disease
similar to people who have a totally wrong diet.

There are also probably other triggers which we have no control over, which is why nothing is
guaranteed even if you live a "healthy" life style.

 

[notuptome]

The Bible is a light that exposes truth in the darkness... and divides right from wrong. It informs discernment. It shines the spotlight on sin. It brings what is small and hidden into view. It is a magnifying glass... it magnifies the glory of God.

A mirror produces a false image, the reverse of what is true. A mirror can only reflect what is put before it, it shines no light of it's own. A mirror can be used to trick and deceive, and is easily shattered.

You, my friend, have such a backwards understanding of things. This new phrase of yours explains a lot - and issues you a new warning. The Bible you know is a mirror reflection of yourself. The Bible you read speaks only the words YOU put into it. The Bible most of the rest of us know provides us magnification of the light, that we may see more clearly.

The Bible magnifies God. Your beliefs are a mirror of your self. And as with all mirror images, it is again completely backwards.

The bible is a mirror into which we can see ourselves as God sees us. It is not a magnifying glass through which we find faults in others to magnify ourselves.

The bible allows us to see ourselves clearly and to reveal our dependence upon Gods grace.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The bible is a mirror not a magnifying glass

 

[notuptome]

There's a lot I could say about the book of Job, but one thing I will say is this, Job was healed about 40 days later and it's recorded he received double what was taken. If we are not being healed and receiving double we aren't having a Job experience.

You confirm my expectations. You have drawn from Job only your desire to be enriched physically not to sacrifice to glorify God.

I expect you would not give your body as a sacrifice to God to glorify Him unless it is on your terms.

Ro 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The bible is a mirror not a magnifying glass.

 

[notuptome]

And according to Jesus God is glorified when people are healed not made sick.

You forgot to quote the verse that supports this contention.

Php 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

The list of Christian martyrs and suffering saints is so long and yet you cannot comprehend it.

1Pe 3:14 But and if ye suffer for righteousness’ sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;

1Pe 4:14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

Seems like the early church suffered greatly for Gods glory. Your attitude is rather insulting to their great victories through suffering.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The bible is a mirror not a magnifying glass

 

[popeye]

There's a lot I could say about the book of Job, but one thing I will say is this, Job was healed about 40 days later and it's recorded he received double what was taken. If we are not being healed and receiving double we aren't having a Job experience.

Oh man

That is really good

I am going to borrow that one permanently.

A classic actually

 

[hornetguy]

David.Samuel passed over the entire kingdom to anoint him.

Mary the mother of Jesus. She was chosen.Why were all others passed by?

The man at the pool of saloam. Why him?


God will pick one man/woman


Over and over and over

Ok.... I think I see what you are saying. But I also think it is a little short-sighted for this discussion. Yes, there are instances where God obviously chose ONE person.... because only one person was needed. But there are many other instances where God's plan was carried out by more than one.. Look at Pentecost... quite a few more than "one" person were involved in that "event".

 

[CS1]

I agree with a lot of this in a lot of cases...but

1) I asked my doctor if my heart disease was due to a poor diet - I'm not obese, but I do eat my McDonald's here and there like any other person. She (my doctor) said that she wouldn't even expect my arteries to look like they do if I had eaten absolutely horribly and I was 65. And that's when I was 31. So if God can heal me - awesome. If God can heal me, but isn't - why? If God can't heal me because healing was only for Jesus' time - then why me, God?
I don't know if I can follow or even wrap my head around believing that there is a God out there that would let his children be sick and not provide a Healer for them. I mean if I were to inject one of my children with a needle full of cancerous cells - I would be put in prison in any country in the world or put to death in many. I just can't believe that God would ever "use" an affliction to further someone's walk...that doesn't sound like God. I'm digressing here and talking to a lot of posters and not just you, but...to the people that mentioned Paul's thorn in his flesh...there are plenty of exigetical writings do prove/provide good apologetics that the thorn was actually PERSECUTION...and NOT sickness.

2) Why didn't God use doctors back then? He used Jesus and others after Jesus to cure people supernaturally. And what about all of the people who came down with afflictions over the years BEFORE medicine was able to cure them. They're just out of luck? What kind of God would He be if He did that?

Please don't take my tone as angry - I know writing can be interpreted incorrectly very easily. I'm very calm as I say all this...I just think they are valid questions for me or anyone else to be asking.

Thanks for your post.

your points:

1. Healing is part of what God does because of HIS love for us. BUT there will be a time that the body will die to sin. But our faith give us hope in the promise of the resurrection . We are to trust God in all thing Paul was behead but before that he was stoned many times almost to death, imprisoned, ship wrecked, snake bitten, robbed, beaten, yet he saw God do great things

2. This is not true Luke was a doctor Doctors were spoken about in the New testament . Just because they were not shown as being effective that was only because the Gospels were about The Lord Jesus Christ.

I can not answer all of your questions but I have respect for them nor do I think you are sounding angry or your tone is wrong. All I can say for me it is faith and Knowing that God CAN AND DOES HEAL TODAY and God has Healed me and I know that I will someday have to leave this place and my body will die but I have HOPE IN THE promise OF GOD that I will be here as Long as HE ordained me to be and if I am sick I will seek Him for Healing and if the answer is NO as JOB I want to say Blessed be the name of the Lord yet though HE slay me I will bless HIS Holy Name

 

[Cee]

Jesus said healing people from sickness brings God glory.

Jesus was persecuted He didn't die from sickness. We are called to be persecuted, but love them anyway. This preaches a Kingdom that makes no sense to the world. This is the love of God. To lay down your life for even your enemies. The Early church did this. Their blood was the seed of Christianity. But you must understand Jesus told us to heal the sick. And Jesus Healed the sick. Jesus never told people it was God's will that they be sick. He never said God gers glory from their sickness. And several times He said He loosed people from the grasp of Satan. And THIS freedom brings God glory.

 

[ladylynn]

It is the enemy that comes to "kill" "steal" "destroy" Jesus said He came to "give life", (not take it) And to give it more abundantly. So many people attribute sickness and death and killing to the Lord when it is not Him at all. He is our Good Shepherd who gives His life for the sheep.

 

[Depleted]

There's a lot I could say about the book of Job, but one thing I will say is this, Job was healed about 40 days later and it's recorded he received double what was taken. If we are not being healed and receiving double we aren't having a Job experience.

Does that really work for you? Job lost all his kids. God gave him more kids, but they were not the children he lost. Sad that you think that's doubling. Weird that you think everything was fixed 40 days later.

 

[Ariel82]

I read a lot of threads and hear people say God doesn't cause illness, but then I think of the example of Miriam and leprosy.

I remember talking to a teenager who lost faith because the false words and teaching of his church. They blamed his lack of faith as to why his father wasn't healed and died.

So it bothers me when people make these assertions that God promises physical healing of these dying bodies for all people, when it is obvious that He doesn't.

It's not in scripture.

God promises death of these bodies and new resurrected bodies. He promises that you will be given what you need to fulfill your God given mission in this world.

He promises punishment for those who seek their lust over His will and are adulterers to this world.

Yes God can heal people. Yes God still does miracles.

However, if our suffering brings us closer to God, then we should rejoice. If our pain can be used for His glory, we should endure. Looking towards eternity with Him and not at these temporal trappings.

This temporal body may or may not be healed of its current ullness, but have faith that you will be given a body that does not get sick or die upon Christ return.

That is what I hope for and when this world seeks to crush me into despair...I lift my eyes to the Lord and remember His love and promises. I remember that I am not home yet, but will glorify God and shine a light for those lost to come back home.

 

[Ariel82]

Hosea 6:1 Esv

“Come, let us return to the Lord; for he has torn us, that he may heal us; he has struck us down, and he will bind us up.

Psalm 119:105 ESV

Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path.

Revelation 21:1-27 ESV

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.” And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” ...

 

[Grace777x70]

Jesus is perfect theology:

Jesus is the exact representation of the Father. Jesus said no one knows my Father.

Jesus came to reveal the Father and His true nature to us as truth in the OT was progressive and in pictures and in shadows, but it ends with the revelation of Jesus Christ and what He has already done in His finished work.

So, whatever understanding of God we get from the Old Covenant that doesn't line up with Jesus' manifestation of the Father will be inaccurate.

Hebrews 1:1-3 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways
,
[SUP]2 [/SUP] in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

[SUP]3 [/SUP] And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

 

[ladylynn]

Jesus is perfect theology:

Jesus is the exact representation of the Father. Jesus said no one knows my Father.

Jesus came to reveal the Father and His true nature to us as truth in the OT was progressive and in pictures and in shadows, but it ends with the revelation of Jesus Christ and what He has already done in His finished work.

So, whatever understanding of God we get from the Old Covenant that doesn't line up with Jesus' manifestation of the Father will be inaccurate.

Hebrews 1:1-3 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways
,
[SUP]2 [/SUP] in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

[SUP]3 [/SUP] And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

This is a beautiful Scriptural answer that the Bible has given us about who God is and how we are to view Him as believers today in these last days. Why did the God-head decided to reveal Himself this way in that Jesus is the exact representation of God's nature? I don't know., but never the less that is His prerogative and we must align ourselves with this revelation only found in Christ Jesus.

Do we want to see God? Look to Jesus. It has been before ordained that we will look to Jesus and that pleases the Father and the Holy Spirit. And comforts our heart and soul. Jesus is the way the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father but by Him.