(ritual) circumcisions today

[emjcares]

You are right. We are not "under the law" but we are most definitely obliged to learn it and do it. Saying the contrary is to encourage people to commit sin, and not to encourage people live to live Holy lives as good examples.

But you HAVEN'T been encouraging people to live Holy lives, whatever THAT really means, ... You have been telling people that they're disobedient, because they don't practice a ceremonial law like circumcision, or the way you do.

Also, what does it mean to say a person is not under a certain law, but then tell them they are obligated to learn and do it? (hunh?)

This isn't an arguement.
Yes it is.
No it isn't, it's just contradiction.
No it isn't.
Yes it is.
No it isn't.
YES IT IS !!!

 

[Dan_473]

Loving the Lord, our God, and loving our neighbor as ourself.
(But I know you know that)

I was thinking of this

14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

my guess is that the 'loving God' part is contained in loving your neighbor, who is made in the image of God...

 

[Dan_473]

*I hope the kid is ok and not scarred or traumatized for life.*

Why would he be?

all circumcisions leave a physical scar.





medically and emotionally I thought this page was interesting
To circumcise or not? | Mom Answers | BabyCenter

here's a quote from that page

"While we as a society once believed there was a medical advantage to circumcision, this is no longer the case. I am a medical student working in OBGYN and the Docs will tell you circumcision provides no protection against disease. it does do the following: -puts your new son at risk for infection/permanent impotence/penile damage -removes 20,000 sensory nerves that function in sexual pleasure -exposes the glans (head) of the penis from its natural foreskin protection, causing keratinization and a decrease in pleasure

-your new son will be "fussy" and uncomfortable, hard to console, after the procedure..."

 

[Dan_473]

Again, if you're referencing me and my stance on law and salvation, you're completely wrong. I have never said my obedience or lack thereof to the Law has any bearing on my salvation. That is through GRACE alone. Hopefully that isn't the case.

A common practice of anti-law people is to assume the pro-law keepers are following it for salvation purposes, even though nothing indicates that stance. That makes the anti-law argument sound a lot better when it's applied to people it doesn't apply to.

say, KohenMatt... what's your input on post 129 here

I've wondered about Roots folks along those lines myself...

according to Roots thinking:

circumcision is required as part of keeping the law

refusing to be circumcised would be sinning

continueing in willful sin would cause a person to loose their salvation

so circumcision is a salvation issue

indeed, you must be circumcised and keep the whole law in order to continue in salvation

(the above is according to Roots thinking, as I understand it)

 

[simplifiedtruth]

I was thinking of this

14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

my guess is that the 'loving God' part is contained in loving your neighbor, who is made in the image of God...

But the real question is: How do you love God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind ? Can a man who has sex with men say I am loving God with all my heart and soul and strength and mind ? Or a man who ignore He's sabbats ? Or a man who eats abominable creatures and drinks blood ? Or a man who commits adultery or covets ? Can he say he loves God with all he's heart and soul and strength and mind ?

 

[simplifiedtruth]

But you HAVEN'T been encouraging people to live Holy lives, whatever THAT really means, ... You have been telling people that they're disobedient, because they don't practice a ceremonial law like circumcision, or the way you do.

Also, what does it mean to say a person is not under a certain law, but then tell them they are obligated to learn and do it? (hunh?)

This isn't an arguement.
Yes it is.
No it isn't, it's just contradiction.
No it isn't.
Yes it is.
No it isn't.
YES IT IS !!!

You aren't under the law of the old covenant, you are under the law of the new covenant which is the same law being put into and functioning in your heart through faith. This faith is conforming us to that law, with Christ as our high priest in the heavenly tabernacle. The physical tabernacle was a copy of the heavenly tabernacle shown to Moses(A shadow of what exist in the heavens).

 

[Dan_473]

Which means we don't have to pay attention to them or do them? Just love our neighbor in random and abstract ways that feel right to us and have no Biblical precedent.

Christians "do" the law of moses by loving their neighbors.

(I say this gently)
that this idea sounds completely foreign to you leads me to suspect that Christ is not fully formed in you.

 

[Dan_473]

Where do you go to to learn what God permit and don't permit and about what He expect of us as He's children?

when people ask questions like that, I suspect they haven't incorporated this into their lifestyle:

18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

 

[KohenMatt]

all circumcisions leave a physical scar.

So? How is a scar traumatizing?

medically and emotionally I thought this page was interesting
To circumcise or not? | Mom Answers | BabyCenter

here's a quote from that page


"While we as a society once believed there was a medical advantage to circumcision, this is no longer the case. I am a medical student working in OBGYN and the Docs will tell you circumcision provides no protection against disease. it does do the following: -puts your new son at risk for infection/permanent impotence/penile damage -removes 20,000 sensory nerves that function in sexual pleasure -exposes the glans (head) of the penis from its natural foreskin protection, causing keratinization and a decrease in pleasure

-your new son will be "fussy" and uncomfortable, hard to console, after the procedure..."

And we should trust a med student who claims to know that all doctors believe those things are always true.
And no, my son wasn't any of those things after the procedure.

For every article there is about the lack of health benefits of circumcision, there are just as many about the benefits of them.

(By the way, I've always found it humorous when people say that circumcision will reduce sensitivity and sexual pleasure. Like that would really be an concern for guys! Sorry if that was inappropriate.)

 

[simplifiedtruth]

when people ask questions like that, I suspect they haven't incorporated this into their lifestyle:

18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

Meaning if you are lead by the Law of the Spirit (Torah put in your heart), you are not under the law written down on paper by Moses. This is easy to understand once we understand Jesus is the High priest of the new covenant who minsters for us through faith and not by carnal ordinances.

 

[Dan_473]

But the real question is: How do you love God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind ? Can a man who has sex with men say I am loving God with all my heart and soul and strength and mind ? Or a man who ignore He's sabbats ? Or a man who eats abominable creatures and drinks blood ? Or a man who commits adultery or covets ? Can he say he loves God with all he's heart and soul and strength and mind ?

9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,”

and whatever other commandments there are,

are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love doesn’t harm a neighbor. Love therefore is the fulfillment of the law.

 

[KohenMatt]

say, KohenMatt... what's your input on post 129 here

Good question. I'm not entirely sure how that works out. That's why I don't take a hard and fast stance on the whole Law/Sin/Salvation issue.

 

[Dan_473]

(part of the post with spaces added)

You aren't under the law of the old covenant, you are under the law of the new covenant

which is the same law

being put into and functioning in your heart through faith.

so you are under the law, then.

 

[simplifiedtruth]

9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,”

and whatever other commandments there are,

are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love doesn’t harm a neighbor. Love therefore is the fulfillment of the law.

"and what ever other commandment there are", That is your opinion.

Why was the new coming gentiles commanded to not eat blood and strangled animals and how are those commandments given contained in you shall love your neighbor as yourself ? Also where did the apostles get those commandments from ?

 

[simplifiedtruth]

(part of the post with spaces added)


so you are under the law, then.

Yes you are under the law! The law of the Spirit which has been placed in your heart(If you are born again of the Spirit). If you ignore it and walk after your own fleshly lusts you will die. If you walk after the law of the Spirit you will live.

 

[Dan_473]

So? How is a scar traumatizing?




And we should trust a med student who claims to know that all doctors believe those things are always true.
And no, my son wasn't any of those things after the procedure.

For every article there is about the lack of health benefits of circumcision, there are just as many about the benefits of them.

(By the way, I've always found it humorous when people say that circumcision will reduce sensitivity and sexual pleasure. Like that would really be an concern for guys! Sorry if that was inappropriate.)

you asked how it could leave a scar... it always leaves a physical scar...

I agree the quote was anecdotal, it was intended to show there are great physical reasons not to circumcise.

I was circumcised on the first day like most males born in the usa in 1970.
I didn't care much when I was younger, but after coming across stories of guys who were circumcised as adults, I realized that it's basically mutilation.

I certainly wouldn't want a baby girl's clitoral hood removed...

and yes, for me, sensitivity and sexual pleasure are things affected by circumcision.

 

[Dan_473]

Meaning if you are lead by the Law of the Spirit (Torah put in your heart), you are not under the law written down on paper by Moses. This is easy to understand once we understand Jesus is the High priest of the new covenant who minsters for us through faith and not by carnal ordinances.

well, a Christian seeks for the fulfillment of Torah, yes... Torah is not fulfilled by physical circumcision.

 

[Dan_473]

Good question. I'm not entirely sure how that works out. That's why I don't take a hard and fast stance on the whole Law/Sin/Salvation issue.

wait, wait, wait,... this sounds like a hard and fast stance...
"DISCLAIMER: My obedience to the Law has NOTHING to do with my salvation..."

seriously? why do you preach circumcision if you're not sure how the law and salvation issue works?

 

[simplifiedtruth]

well, a Christian seeks for the fulfillment of Torah, yes... Torah is not fulfilled by physical circumcision.

Not every commandment are "moral" commandments(Which is not a biblical term). Some commandments require to be acted upon physically. Like the sabbat and dietary law and circumcision and what to do in certain circumstances.

 

[Grace777x70]

You are right. We are not "under the law"(Old covenant) but we are most definitely obliged to learn it and do it. Saying the contrary is to encourage people to commit sin, and not to encourage people live to live Holy lives as good examples.

That's not true. Again this is your own carnal mind thinking that not being under Law will give Christians a license to sin. This shows you do not know the gospel yet. We can trust the Holy Spirit in us as we live by the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus and the law of love will cover all situations.

I encourage you to stop trusting in your "law-keeping" and trust in Christ alone for life and living. Once you see Christ for what He has already done for us - you will love Him dearly and His life in you will indirectly fulfill all the true intent of the Law.