(ritual) circumcisions today

[Dan_473]

Well, if we're making the rules up as we go, as it seems the Judaisers are doing by throwing out the New Testament, there are 2 schools of thought in this cult. The first is that as women are born without any extra skin to snip, they are already circumcised, so all women are saved. However, the second school of thought insists that as women don't have any unneeded skin to trim, they are uncircumcised, and so must perform at least 2 circumcisions to be saved (performing a circumcision is half the blessing of getting one). There are sub-schools in the second school, attributing different values to performance, but I think you get the idea.

seriously? are these ideas found in the hebrew roots movement? orthordox Judaism? both?

 

[Joshua_6]

seriously? are these ideas found in the hebrew roots movement? orthordox Judaism? both?

Sorry. Was being sarcastic. Trying to show how ridiculous their cult actually is, but I didn't expect to be taken seriously on that one. :|

That said, I did read that certain Jews had those two schools of thought about women. One group believed that women were essentially already circumcised, as born without foreskin. The other group believed that women were uncircumcised, as they'd never had foreskin snipped. I'm not sure how the other group believed that "uncircumcised" women could redeem themselves (I'm fairly sure it wasn't through performing circumcisions themselves, though). All said, just cults.

 

[simplifiedtruth]

I am late to the discussion so I will start here.

1. Circumcision was a sign given to abraham, so was not even part of the law. It was given to him and his desendents only as a sign of his covenant with them. It was also given as part of the law, as to how it is to be done.

2. Circumcision is a custom given to jews. A jew, or Person of Isreal, even in the NT was called a people of the circumcision. vs Gentiles who were called the uncircumcised.

3. In ACTS 21, we See that paul urged no gentile to be circumcised, He only said they had a few things they should do when the topic of jews demanded that gentiles be circumcised and follow the law. This was his answer.

[SUP]25 [/SUP]But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written and decided that they should observe no such thing,[SUP][d][/SUP] except that they should keep themselves from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality.”

4. The topic of a person who is circumcised is indebted to keep the whole law was in response to those who said if you want to be saved, You not only need to have faith in Christ, But you have to be circumcised also. Otherwise, you will not be saved, and are breakers of the law. The answer is this, If you have to be circumcised to be saved, You have to follow the whole law. and be perfect without sin to be saved, For this is the only way one can save themselves by the law..


Now my opinion on circumcision. It is a health issue (or so it seems) if one wants to do it to their children, Great, If one does not. No biggy.. It will not affect ones salvation one way or the other. And has nothing to do with whether a gentile is following the law or not. A gentile, saved or not, is not in sin if they have not been, and do not get circumcised.

You are wrong. You should read all my previous posts. Also the covenant of circumcision is an eternal covenant for all generations and it is law. The strangers and the natural born are to be circumcised. Acts 21 is retelling what is written in acts 15 of what to expect of newcomers. They did not live and grow up having Moses preached to them in all their villages so therefore those were the only expectations of them for to come and learn Moses and Jesus preached every sabbath.

Acts 15:19

Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. 21For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

 

[Joshua_6]

Also the covenant of circumcision is an eternal covenant for all generations and it is law.

Where God speaks of circumcision as being an everlasting covenant "in your flesh", isn't that just talking about circumcision's permanent nature (i.e. skin won't grow back and covenant won't be reversed)? Also remember that we have a "New Covenant" or "New Testament", in Christ through His death and resurrection.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You are wrong. You should read all my previous posts. Also the covenant of circumcision is an eternal covenant for all generations and it is law. The strangers and the natural born are to be circumcised. Acts 21 is retelling what is written in acts 15 of what to expect of newcomers. They did not live and grow up having Moses preached to them in all their villages so therefore those were the only expectations of them for to come and learn Moses and Jesus preached every sabbath.

Acts 15:19

Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. 21For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Then you better be perfect otherwise, You will not be saved, since your trying to be saved by the law.

I already proved to you in Acts 21 that they were not obligated to be circumcised. But they should follow certain things. but i see you went to acts 15 Why did you not post it all. It says the same things I just said;


Acts 15:
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law”[SUP][f][/SUP] —to whom we gave no such commandment— [SUP]25 [/SUP]it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, [SUP]26 [/SUP]men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. [SUP]27 [/SUP]We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. [SUP]28 [/SUP]For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: [SUP]29 [/SUP]that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality.[SUP][g][/SUP] If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.

and repeated in the passage that I already gave Acts 21:

[SUP]21 [/SUP]but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. [SUP]22 [/SUP]What then? The assembly must certainly meet, for they will[SUP][c][/SUP] hear that you have come. [SUP]23 [/SUP]Therefore do what we tell you: We have four men who have taken a vow. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Take them and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads, and that all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning you are nothing, but that you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law. [SUP]25 [/SUP]But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written and decided that they should observe no such thing,[SUP][d][/SUP] except that they should keep themselves from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality.”

So, Unless you wish to call Peter and Paul a liar. I would recommend you stop and listen to them.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Where God speaks of circumcision as being an everlasting covenant "in your flesh", isn't that just talking about circumcision's permanent nature (i.e. skin won't grow back and covenant won't be reversed)? Also remember that we have a "New Covenant" or "New Testament", in Christ through His death and resurrection.

I agree, the circumcision Paul spoke of. the one made without hands, Done By God himself (col 2)

 

[Dan_473]

Ewww. Its funny, but no matter how much feminists talk about perceived inequality of women in the bible, they never talk about this. They don't like the idea of selling female slaves for silver, but buying a princess for foreskins? Well, that must be okay. Either princesses were worth a lot less those days, or foreskins a lot more...

loved that part of your post... never looked at it that way...

interesting that Saul asks for 100, David brings him 200...



so I was leading a Bible study when I was in my twenties and this passage came up... one of the young ladies said, "What's a foreskin"? Another answered, pointing to her forehead, "I think it's this".

 

[simplifiedtruth]

Genesis 17:9

And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. 10This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. 11And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you. 12And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed. 13He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. 14And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

Romans 4:9

Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.10How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

 

[simplifiedtruth]

Genesis 17:9

And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. 10This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. 11And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you. 12And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed. 13He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. 14And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

Romans 4:9

Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.10How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

The bible contains many covenants from God. If another one is established it does not automatically exclude or do away with others.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The bible contains many covenants from God. If another one is established it does not automatically exclude or do away with others.

People were saved before abraham. This circumcision is not required. Or all who lived before abraham are lost (This owuld include noah)

Gen 17 is given to children of Isreal only (through the son of promise) Rom 4 does not say all gentiles should run out and get circumcised so they can be saved

 

[Joshua_6]

loved that part of your post... never looked at it that way...

interesting that Saul asks for 100, David brings him 200...

Awesome, huh? Like emjcares said, I can imagine David saying to Saul:

Come on, guys, you're making this too easy!!

so I was leading a Bible study when I was in my twenties and this passage came up... one of the young ladies said, "What's a foreskin"? Another answered, pointing to her forehead, "I think it's this".

Lol. That would have been awkward (but funny). Especially for the second girl, when she found out what a foreskin really was, and where she had been suggesting she had one...

 

[simplifiedtruth]

Then you better be perfect otherwise, You will not be saved, since your trying to be saved by the law.

I already proved to you in Acts 21 that they were not obligated to be circumcised. But they should follow certain things. but i see you went to acts 15 Why did you not post it all. It says the same things I just said;


So, Unless you wish to call Peter and Paul a liar. I would recommend you stop and listen to them.

I am not trying to be saved by the law. I am already saved and walking with Christ. Did you even read my post you are quoting ? Do you not understand my words ? Read it again.

Acts 21:21

And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs. 22What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come. 23Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; 24Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. 25As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

Acts 21 is retelling what is written in acts 15 of what to expect of newcomers. They did not live and grow up having Moses preached to them in all their villages so therefore those were the only expectations of them for to come and learn Moses and Jesus preached every sabbath.

Acts 15:19

Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. 21For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

See Paul is not against keeping the law or against physical circumcision of the flesh:

Acts 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

Acts 21:24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I am not trying to be saved by the law. I am already saved and walking with Christ. Did you even read my post you are quoting ? Do you not understand my words ? Read it again.

Acts 21:21

And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs. 22What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come. 23Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; 24Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. 25As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

Acts 21 is retelling what is written in acts 15 of what to expect of newcomers. They did not live and grow up having Moses preached to them in all their villages so therefore those were the only expectations of them for to come and learn Moses and Jesus preached every sabbath.

Acts 15:19

Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. 21For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

See Paul is not against keeping the law or against physical circumcision of the flesh:

Acts 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

Acts 21:24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

that is 2 times now you have not read what was posted. Is that the way you wish to do things? If so. please let me know and I will go elswhere.

Again,

Acts 15:
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law”[SUP][f][/SUP] —to whom we gave no such commandment—

Now why would you say different, When Peter himself says specifically, We gave no one any such law..

ps. If this is not a salvation issue, Then why are you even discussing it, and demanding men must be circumcised..

 

[Dan_473]

Your post reminds me of that strange episode when having told Moses to go to Egypt and rescue the Israelites God decides to kill him because he wasn't circumcised. His wife saves the day by 'snipping' him herself'. I wonder why God didn't mention this requirement to him to begin with as a matter of life and death?.

maybe it's a translation thing

"25 Then Zipporah took a flint and cut off her son’s foreskin"
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+4&version=NASB

sounds like it's Moses' son?

anyways, of course, Moses, Zipporah, and their son are obligated to keep the whole law...

 

[Dan_473]

A person who accepts the circumcision doctrine is no different than a modern day jewish person. Therefore they are obliged to keep the whole law, which they have not done(They are guilty). They have no sacrifice for their sins. God does not accept animal sacrifices or anything different than the sacrifice of Christ.

I don't believe you directly answered this question:

"does it seem reasonable to you then that
a person who
doesn't accept circumcision is
not obligated to keep the whole law?"

 

[Joshua_6]

maybe it's a translation thing

"25 Then Zipporah took a flint and cut off her son’s foreskin"
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+4&version=NASB

sounds like it's Moses' son?

anyways, of course, Moses, Zipporah, and their son are obligated to keep the whole law...

I missed this when I first read his post, and thought he was speaking of Moses' and Zipporah's son (even though he probably was meaning Moses). Yeah, surely Moses was already circumcised, as Pharoah's daughter recognised him in the basket as a Hebrew baby. In Exodus 4, I'm fairly sure the passage is talking about their son (not Moses).

 

[garee]

Sorry. Was being sarcastic. Trying to show how ridiculous their cult actually is, but I didn't expect to be taken seriously on that one. :|

That said, I did read that certain Jews had those two schools of thought about women. One group believed that women were essentially already circumcised, as born without foreskin. The other group believed that women were uncircumcised, as they'd never had foreskin snipped. I'm not sure how the other group believed that "uncircumcised" women could redeem themselves (I'm fairly sure it wasn't through performing circumcisions themselves, though). All said, just cults.

Circumcision is figured or calculated from the standpoint of our “bloody husband” Christ. His flesh was cut off (circumcised) from the land of the living for the transgression of His Christian people was he stricken.

This is when His HolSpirit returned to the father. The flesh which could not profit returned to the lifeless spiritless dust it was taken from .


And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD met him, and sought to kill him.Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to me. So he(the Lord God ) let him (Moses) go: then she said, A bloody husband thou art, because of the circumcision. Exo 4:24-26

Isaiah helps further the gospel in respect to the suffering of Christ beforehand also again to circumcise is to be cut off from the flesh to show that "not seen" the faith principle ....spirit life was given.

Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

 

[simplifiedtruth]

that is 2 times now you have not read what was posted. Is that the way you wish to do things? If so. please let me know and I will go elswhere.

Again,

Acts 15:
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law”[SUP][f][/SUP] —to whom we gave no such commandment—

Now why would you say different, When Peter himself says specifically, We gave no one any such law..

ps. If this is not a salvation issue, Then why are you even discussing it, and demanding men must be circumcised..

Why do you not understand my words ?

Acts 21 is retelling what is written in acts 15 of what to expect of newcomers. They did not live and grow up having Moses preached to them in all their villages so therefore those were the only expectations of them for to come and learn Moses and Jesus preached every sabbath.

Acts 15:19

Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. 21For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Acts 15:28

For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.


They did come to the synagogue to learn Moses and Christ every sabbath. Because they had not been raised in the law of Moses they were given commandment to abstain abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication, which if they did, they would do well. For Moses of old time had in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Why do you not understand my words ?

Acts 21 is retelling what is written in acts 15 of what to expect of newcomers. They did not live and grow up having Moses preached to them in all their villages so therefore those were the only expectations of them for to come and learn Moses and Jesus preached every sabbath.

Acts 15:19

Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. 21For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Acts 15:28

For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.


They did come to the synagogue to learn Moses and Christ every sabbath. Because they had not been raised in the law of Moses they were given commandment to abstain abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication, which if they did, they would do well. For Moses of old time had in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Why do you not listen to what I said. Nothing there says they needed or were commanded to be circumcised.

In non of those things where they ever told to go get circumcised, or that it was required. But if a jew came and told them they must be circumcised, That is not a command given by Peter. or by Paul or by any of the apostles.. And they are bot obligated to do it, Bugt what they were obligated to do was those things they mentioned..

 

[simplifiedtruth]

Why do you not listen to what I said. Nothing there says they needed or were commanded to be circumcised.

In non of those things where they ever told to go get circumcised, or that it was required. But if a jew came and told them they must be circumcised, That is not a command given by Peter. or by Paul or by any of the apostles.. And they are bot obligated to do it, Bugt what they were obligated to do was those things they mentioned..

It was not lawful to be unequally yoked with unbelievers or what was called infidels. And those gentiles were not yet converted to the customs of the law after having received the Holy Spirit of promise through faith. Certain of the Jahudeans reacted upon that people who were unconverted to the customs were allowed in fellowship. The ruling was put out by the apostles that there was no difference between them and the gentiles who had received the same Holy Spirit of promise as them and that through the grace of God their hearts would be purified through the faith that is of Christ. In old times they had Moses preached everywhere but not the gentiles. There were laid up 4 commandments for the gentiles keep so they could come and learn Moses and Christ being preached every sabbath in the synagogues.

Acts 15:6

And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. 7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.