THE RAPTURE

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It is only in the imagination that the resurrected / raptured "go any higher up" than "in the clouds" / "in the air" - the first heaven. The Bible does not actually say that they "go any higher up" than that place where they are all 'assembled'...

:)

.....and as long as we jettison the OTHER pretrib rapture verses,then why not assume the obscure and reject the obvious .
 
The whole rapture thing has me to where I just don't know. As a kid, it was drilled into my head until leaving home and God. It isn't that Scripture contradicts itself, because it doesn't; it's just that it is not clear in my mind. Much to study and pray on.
 
The whole rapture thing has me to where I just don't know. As a kid, it was drilled into my head until leaving home and God. It isn't that Scripture contradicts itself, because it doesn't; it's just that it is not clear in my mind. Much to study and pray on.

None of knows.

We look to the word,and try to be bereans,but need the "proving" of the body of Christ and confirmation through each other and the word.

We eliminate the impossible.

There is a pinacle,or target.

It is the new Jerusalem,and Davids throne re established. That is the end game target.
 
.....and as long as we jettison the OTHER pretrib rapture verses,then why not assume the obscure and reject the obvious .
"But, isn't that exactly what you are doing?"

You seem to wrap your eschatology around the 10 virgins parable while avoiding and ignoring the blatent and obvious message that Matthew 24:29-31 very clearly states:


Matthew 24:

[SUP]29[/SUP] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [SUP]30[/SUP] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [SUP]31[/SUP] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.



"This is as blatent and obvious as it gets..." :eek:

These verses paint a very clear picture of the appearance of Christ ( verse 30 ) - "in the clouds of heaven" - and - "with power and great glory" -- and subsequent 'rapture' ( verse 31 ) -- AFTER "the tribulation of those days" - defined in verse 21 -- which clearly indicates what we call the Great Tribulation.

How many times will Jesus come "in the clouds of heaven"...?

How many times will Jesus come "with power and great glory"...?


The answer to both questions is "one" - and they occur together in the same event - described in the above verses.

Jesus is coming back to earth only once, not twice.

The next time He "shows up", He is here to stay.


As for "other" pretrib rapture verses...

"I have not seen one yet." :p

( there are none ;) )


"Go right ahead -- ignore the blatently obvious -- let the workings of your imagination on the more obscure things rule your thoughts -- instead of focusing on what the Bible actually says..."


If you will build your foundation strictly on what the Bible actually says -- and, not let your imagination rule your thoughts -- considering ONLY those things that the Bible actually says -- "I promise you" -- you will begin to see a much more clear picture...

( However, you must first "let go of" and "unlearn" all of the CRAP you have been taught all of your life that the Bible does not actually say. )

There is a lot that the Bible does actually say. However, we ( people, collectively ) have been taught to ignore it in favor of something that the imaginations of men have come up with as a "preferred replacement" ( even if unwittingly ) for what the Bible actually says.


:)
 
The whole rapture thing has me to where I just don't know. As a kid, it was drilled into my head until leaving home and God. It isn't that Scripture contradicts itself, because it doesn't; it's just that it is not clear in my mind. Much to study and pray on.

Your post gives the illusion that you are alone or at least in the minority when it comes to knowing about the rapture. Truth is, if we're all honest about it we would be saying the same thing. This is a mystery on purpose. No one knows, that's why this lengthy thread is loaded with assumptions based on our futile limited logic and interpretation. His thoughts are not our thoughts, His ways are not our ways. He would not have us ignorant AND He would not have us know the day or hour... sounds like a paradox, but is it?
 
He would not have us ignorant AND He would not have us know the day or hour... sounds like a paradox, but is it?
No, it is not...


1 Thessalonians 5:

[SUP]1[/SUP] But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. [SUP]2[/SUP] For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. [SUP]3[/SUP] For when
they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. [SUP]4[/SUP] But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.


... the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night --- to 'they' / 'them' --- but not to 'ye' / 'you'.

:)
 
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None of knows.

We look to the word,and try to be bereans,but need the "proving" of the body of Christ and confirmation through each other and the word.

We eliminate the impossible.

There is a pinacle,or target.

It is the new Jerusalem,and Davids throne re established. That is the end game target.
Agreed on that.
 
There are two events.

1) The return of God, the Father (the Day of the Lord or Day of God)
2) The return of Christ (the Day of Christ)

The "rapture" of 1 Thes 4 discusses the return of the Father. He is clearly identified as the One who brings those who sleep in Jesus. The Lord (God) Himself comes with His trumpet.

The timing given for the return of Jesus, AKA Day of Christ, is given in several places. In Mat 24:29-31, Jesus Himself tells us that He returns sometime AFTER the "Tribulation of those days." In 2 Thes 2 Paul tells us that this day will not happen until the "Falling away" and the "Man of Sin is revealed and declares to be above all called God."
 
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1Cor.15? What is that actually talking about. I believe it will be the time of the gathering of Gods people. We will meet Christ in the air and then its off to Jerusalem to the kingdom rest. What do you believe and why?

I believe the rapture will occur On the day of the return of the Messiah, Or LORD Jesus Christ.. I do not believe it will happen before which is called pre-tribulation rapture.. I believe we shall rule the world with Jesus for 1000 years after the return of Jesus..

I believe this because that is what i have read in the Bible..
 
There are two events.

1) The return of God, the Father (the Day of the Lord or Day of God)
2) The return of Christ (the Day of Christ)

The "rapture" of 1 Thes 4 discusses the return of the Father. He is clearly identified as the One who brings those who sleep in Jesus. The Lord (God) Himself comes with His trumpet.

The timing given for the return of Jesus, AKA Day of Christ, is given in several places. In Mat 24:29-31, Jesus Himself tells us that He returns sometime AFTER the "Tribulation of those days." In 2 Thes 2 Paul tells us that this day will not happen until the "Falling away" and the "Man of Sin is revealed and declares to be above all called God."

Straining at a gnat. The day of Christ and day of The Lord is the same day. It happens on the last day of this present world when Jesus returns to gather His Church and start His Millennial reign.
 
Your post gives the illusion that you are alone or at least in the minority when it comes to knowing about the rapture. Truth is, if we're all honest about it we would be saying the same thing. This is a mystery on purpose. No one knows, that's why this lengthy thread is loaded with assumptions based on our futile limited logic and interpretation. His thoughts are not our thoughts, His ways are not our ways. He would not have us ignorant AND He would not have us know the day or hour... sounds like a paradox, but is it?

That's strange, the 2nd coming of Christ Jesus and gathering of His Church isn't a mystery to me, nor to those like myself who have actually read what God's Word teaches about it. It's actually very easy... to understand as written in The Bible.

Thus the real... problem folks like yourself must be having, with saying it's a "mystery" when it really is not, is because of who you are listening to (to man and not to God in His Word).

Matt 24:29-31
29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And He shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV


There; that should be easy.
 
I believe the rapture will occur On the day of the return of the Messiah, Or LORD Jesus Christ.. I do not believe it will happen before which is called pre-tribulation rapture.. I believe we shall rule the world with Jesus for 1000 years after the return of Jesus..

I believe this because that is what i have read in the Bible..

Hello Adstar,

The problem you have is the same as everyone who believes that the event of the gathering of the church as being the same event of when Christ returns to the earth to end that age, which is the wrath of God. From where we are right now and in between the time that the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, is God's wrath. This will be an unprecedented time, which will be the worst time in the history of the world from the beginning of creation, until now and never to be equaled again. Regarding this, scripture states that the believers within the church are not appointed to suffer this coming wrath and that because Jesus rescued us from it by taking the wrath that we deserve upon himself (1 Thes.1:10, 5:9). That said, the church must be removed prior to God's wrath. And this time of wrath is not going to be a walk in the park, but will decimate the population of the earth and dismantle all human government. This wrath will be aimed at the ungodly, wicked, arrogant, haughty, proud, Christ rejecting world. Believers are not appointed to suffer wrath.

Furthermore, regarding the appearing of the Lord and our being gathered to him, Paul said to comfort one another with this hope. And he also referred to the Lord's appearing to gather us as "the blessed hope." That being said, if the church was here during the time of God's wrath, it could not possibly be a blessed hope nor could we comfort one another if we were to go through God's wrath. This stems from people not understanding the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath. Here is what Zephaniah prophesied regarding this time of wrath:

I will sweep away everything from the face of the earth, says the Lord. I will sweep away people and animals alike. I will sweep away the birds of the sky and the fish in the sea. I will reduce the wicked to heaps of rubble,and I will wipe humanity from the face of the earth, says the Lord."

And regarding this same time of wrath, Isaiah says the following:

"I will make man scarcer than pure gold, more rare than the gold of Ophir."
 
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Ahwatukee

God is well able to preserve a follower of Jesus through the most terrible times and He will be well able to keep followers of Jesus alive through the End times wars and persecutions of the anti-christs.. Remember the early Christians who died in the roman coliseums.. and remember the Christians who have been killed in Syria and Iraq and Pakistan and so many other places in recent years.. And all the Christians who have died for their testimony of Jesus down through out the centuries in between.. Jesus said..

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
 
That's strange, the 2nd coming of Christ Jesus and gathering of His Church isn't a mystery to me, nor to those like myself who have actually read what God's Word teaches about it. It's actually very easy... to understand as written in The Bible.

Thus the real... problem folks like yourself must be having, with saying it's a "mystery" when it really is not, is because of who you are listening to (to man and not to God in His Word).

Matt 24:29-31
29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And He shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV


There; that should be easy.
Super. Thanks for clearing that up!
 
Super. Thanks for clearing that up!

Hello SteelToed,

This is directed to DP:

Matt 24:29-31
29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And He shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV


There are two individual events, 1). The Lord descending and the dead resurrecting and the living believers being changed and caught up to meet the Lord in the air and 2). The Lord's return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom. These two are individual events and take place at least seven years apart from each other. The first one is for the purpose of gathering the church prior to God's wrath being poured out and is in fulfillment of John 14:1-3 and 2). is when Christ returns to the earth to end the age. That said, everything that DP quoted above in Mt.24:29-31 is not in reference to the gathering of the church, but is in reference to the Lord's return to end the age.


At the resurrection and the catching away of the living believers, angels do not gather us together. This is speaking about the angels gathering those believers who will have made it through that entire seven years and will still be in their mortal bodies. Mt.24:31 is not referring to the gathering of the church. Again, the biggest reason that this is not referring to the church, is because it would mean that the church would have gone through the entire wrath of God, which scripture states that we are not appointed to suffer. That is always the problem that faces anyone who attempts to make the gathering of the church and the Lord's return to the earth to end the age as being the same event. We are just not appointed to suffer wrath, because Jesus already suffered for us.
 
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The tribulation starts with a time of God's judgment. The church is here for that. At the end of the time of judgment upon the earth, Christ gathers us to be with Him in the heavens. This is when the time of tribulation wrath starts on earth, while we in heaven are judged and (hopefully) attend the wedding feast. At the end of the time of wrath upon earth and our time at the feast in heaven, we return to earth with Christ for the millennium. At the end of those 1,000 years all mankind is gathered, and as this creation is de-created and the new creation appears, mankind is separated into those destined for the new creation and those destined to the lake of fire.
 
Super. Thanks for clearing that up!

Don't let Ahwatukee fool ya. He has sold completely into man's doctrine of the pre-tribulational rapture. The Matt.24 example I gave is our Lord Jesus speaking to His disciples upon the Mount of Olives, which is where Zechariah 14 declares His feet will touch down at His 2nd coming.

In 1 Thessalonians 5 and 2 Peter 3:10, both Apostles Paul and Peter declared the "thief in the night" timing to happen on the "day of the Lord". Per the OT prophets, and NT revealing, especially that 2 Peter 3:10 verse, the "day of the Lord" is to occur only... on the very last day of this present world. It ends the great tribulation is what that means.

Ahwatukee has been wrongly taught that the "day of the Lord" event occurs during the tribulation, as if... it were the tribulation of 3.5 years. It is not. The "day of the Lord" events recorded in OT Scripture for the end of this world occur very rapidly; in the Book of Isaiah God even shows it will occur "suddenly, at an instant" (Isaiah 29).

Here is what occurs on that "day of the Lord" per Scripture:

1. Christ's coming on the "last trump", the 7th trumpet (Rev.11; 1 Cor.15)

2. Jesus brings the "asleep" saints with Him (1 Thess.4; Matt.24:29-31)

3. The saints on earth still alive are 'changed' "at the twinkling of an eye" (coupled with the "suddenly, at an instant" burning event of Isaiah 29:5 and 2 Peter 3:10).

4. Both groups of saints gathered to Jesus as He comes down to the earth upon the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem, where we are gathered to (1 Thess.4; Matt.24:31; Mark 13:27).

5. Christ and His angels fight the battle of Armageddon, an event coupled with the burning fire event of Isa.29 and 2 Pet.3:10 (Rev.16).

6. The beast and false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire; the devil is locked in his pit prison, and Christ's 1,000 years reign with His elect, on earth, begins (Rev.19; Rev.20; Rev.5:10).

God's consuming fire burns man's works off the surface of this earth, at an instant (2 Pet.3:10; Isaiah 29:5).
 
The reason it's important to understand when the "day of the Lord" timing is per God's Word, is because Peter especially tied it with the burning of man's works off this earth by God's consuming fire. Hebrews 12 in the latter part of the chapter mentioned this coming consuming fire event that will end this present world. Peter also revealed in 2 Peter 3 that this present world is preserved unto destruction by fire.

So what does that consuming fire event mean for the tribulation time which is to be the very end of this present world? It means the tribulation cannot exist through God's consuming fire, so His fire is going to end Satan's tribulation in the last days with man's works burned up.

Now here's the key point about that. In Rev.16 Jesus said He comes "as a thief". He also said that to the Church of Sardis in Rev.3. Both Paul and Peter linked that "as a thief in the night" timing when our Lord Jesus comes with the "day of the Lord" timing. At Rev.16 on the 6th Vial timing, Jesus is still warning His Church on earth to keep their garments lest they appear in shame. That means even by the 6th Vial timing He has not come to gather His Church yet.

So truly, just as we can be sure the "day of the Lord" timing must occur to END the tribulation with the burning fire event, we also know that aligns perfectly with when Jesus revealed His 2nd coming in Matt.24:29-31 to be immediately after... the tribulation.

Really in essence then, our Lord Jesus made the timing of His coming to gather us easy, as long as we stay focused in His Word and don't rely on men's doctrines.
 
That's strange, the 2nd coming of Christ Jesus and gathering of His Church isn't a mystery to me, nor to those like myself who have actually read what God's Word teaches about it. It's actually very easy... to understand as written in The Bible.

Thus the real... problem folks like yourself must be having, with saying it's a "mystery" when it really is not, is because of who you are listening to (to man and not to God in His Word).

Matt 24:29-31
29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And He shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV


There; that should be easy.
I agree it is easy. Mat 24 is not written to the church but to Israel.

For the cause of Christ
Roger