God LIED!
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The fact that youd make the claim that one does not need to come to the Lord and obey Him to be saved because "you wouldnt want to sin" is pretty ridiculous. That seems to go more against the saved by grace teaching, to me. You wont sin once you come to the Lord because it will feel terrible to do so.
Of course we arent saved by our works, we have all fallen, even after coming to Him. But even when we do, we can repent once more and continue to seek Him and continue leaving our sins behind. That means obeying Him. If a murderer came to Him and said he now believed in the Lord and what He has done for us, but continued to murder for his pleasure while telling himself "its okay, Im covered by His grace", do you really believe God will save him?
I fully believe that we must obey God. It doesnt come automatically once you accept Him, Im still tempted every day. I know that I must continue to follow Him. And before you try to make that into an "Im saving myself" thing, if I end up failing, then it would clearly be His grace that saves me in the end, the fact that He is willing to save me despite not doing right.
But, if I go ahead and let myself be a slave to my temptations and desires, with no desire to follow Him, and just say "im covered by grace", do you really believe Hed save me?
Of course we arent saved by our works, we have all fallen, even after coming to Him. But even when we do, we can repent once more and continue to seek Him and continue leaving our sins behind. That means obeying Him. If a murderer came to Him and said he now believed in the Lord and what He has done for us, but continued to murder for his pleasure while telling himself "its okay, Im covered by His grace", do you really believe God will save him?
I fully believe that we must obey God. It doesnt come automatically once you accept Him, Im still tempted every day. I know that I must continue to follow Him. And before you try to make that into an "Im saving myself" thing, if I end up failing, then it would clearly be His grace that saves me in the end, the fact that He is willing to save me despite not doing right.
But, if I go ahead and let myself be a slave to my temptations and desires, with no desire to follow Him, and just say "im covered by grace", do you really believe Hed save me?
E
So I need to obey to be saved Or I Obey because I am saved, Which is it?
second, I never said what you claimed, So can you please read what I wrote again, Maybe you misunderstood me
I never said this either.. So please. reread what I wrote.
Do you really believe that "murderer" repented?
Lets get serious now. If he repented, Why is he still doing it? where is the conviction, the chastening? the fact that one born of God can;t sin.. Did that all go away?
I have a question, Are you perfect? if not, you fall short of Gods glory, and are in need of salvation,
Have you recieved Christ?
Again, I would ask you, has that person repented? You have God saving a person who has not repented. and has no desire to change, meaning he does not fully realise the consequence of sin..
second, I never said what you claimed, So can you please read what I wrote again, Maybe you misunderstood me
I never said this either.. So please. reread what I wrote.
Do you really believe that "murderer" repented?
Lets get serious now. If he repented, Why is he still doing it? where is the conviction, the chastening? the fact that one born of God can;t sin.. Did that all go away?
I have a question, Are you perfect? if not, you fall short of Gods glory, and are in need of salvation,
Have you recieved Christ?
Again, I would ask you, has that person repented? You have God saving a person who has not repented. and has no desire to change, meaning he does not fully realise the consequence of sin..
B
Thank you guys for your kind words, and yes the truth does matter, but where there is real disagreement is where the Holy Spirit will do His stuff. I don't want those who look in here to think we can not agree, or at least agree to disagree.
I do not believe this grace thing matters that much as far as our kingdom access is concerned. I am not dismissing you all out of hand, If I am wrong then I am sure God's grace will cover me, if you are it will cover you, but I really don't feel it a point of death argument. And why let those who visit this site see all this 'put down' attitude.
As I did say, and as Paul said if what we do proves a point of contention with anyone why do it, stop it. Paul said this to fit in where babes in Christ are, who's faith is not yet built up to maturity, and this is the bone of contention with me. It matters what we say and do, to say "you can do anything because it doesn't matter you will never loose your salvation" is where I call a halt, can you not see where I am coming from on this.
I know you do not condone living a life of sin, getting drunk every night, popping pills and snorting the best there is to get off and out of it. We are told are we not that we should not have any kind of sexual impropriety in our lives, there should be nothing that anyone can point a finger at no matter how inconsequential. To me the phrase "you can do anything because it doesn't matter you will never loose your salvation" is on a par with this.
Besides a new Christian seeing this and having trouble with satan could grasp at this as a way forward and bring their lives and the word of God into disrepute. A non believer seeing this would automatically think, "hey I can do this, accept Jesus through the bottom of a glass and worship at a brothel YAY!!"
I am tired and frustrated by all this, I need to build up and be built up not knock down and suffer the same. I have mentioned in a few posts that the 'Ten commandments' in Christ turn about to ten promises, commandments are hard and unforgiving, promises are soft and Weald comfort. Instead of "Thou shalt not . . . " we get, "In Jesus you wont want to . . " The Lord showed me this a long time ago and it has stuck with me. I want us all to be on the same page here for Jesus sake, and ours.
I do not believe this grace thing matters that much as far as our kingdom access is concerned. I am not dismissing you all out of hand, If I am wrong then I am sure God's grace will cover me, if you are it will cover you, but I really don't feel it a point of death argument. And why let those who visit this site see all this 'put down' attitude.
As I did say, and as Paul said if what we do proves a point of contention with anyone why do it, stop it. Paul said this to fit in where babes in Christ are, who's faith is not yet built up to maturity, and this is the bone of contention with me. It matters what we say and do, to say "you can do anything because it doesn't matter you will never loose your salvation" is where I call a halt, can you not see where I am coming from on this.
I know you do not condone living a life of sin, getting drunk every night, popping pills and snorting the best there is to get off and out of it. We are told are we not that we should not have any kind of sexual impropriety in our lives, there should be nothing that anyone can point a finger at no matter how inconsequential. To me the phrase "you can do anything because it doesn't matter you will never loose your salvation" is on a par with this.
Besides a new Christian seeing this and having trouble with satan could grasp at this as a way forward and bring their lives and the word of God into disrepute. A non believer seeing this would automatically think, "hey I can do this, accept Jesus through the bottom of a glass and worship at a brothel YAY!!"
I am tired and frustrated by all this, I need to build up and be built up not knock down and suffer the same. I have mentioned in a few posts that the 'Ten commandments' in Christ turn about to ten promises, commandments are hard and unforgiving, promises are soft and Weald comfort. Instead of "Thou shalt not . . . " we get, "In Jesus you wont want to . . " The Lord showed me this a long time ago and it has stuck with me. I want us all to be on the same page here for Jesus sake, and ours.
You are saved by grace alone, but yes you must obey Him to be saved. I was specifically shown this when God opened my bible to Deut 22:5. I dont see why it is impossible to say that we are only saved by His grace, but that He still wants us to do right.
I read what you wrote, you wrote that if you were rescued from your sin, would you not want to go back? And I agree, I agree that I was saved from death, which came from sin. I believe that sin leads to death. I believe that rebelling against God is sin. I now believe that I must follow Him in order to be saved. I believe that He will forgive my sins, and that I must turn from my sins.
Im well aware that you will try to make me sound foolish for saying we must obey Him by turning my posts around in this manner : p "Wouldnt you not want to sin? So because you wont you automatically do whats right and theres no worrying about obeying", but I want to obey Him, because I believe His path is good and right. If I claimed to believe in Him, and believed that sinning was good and right, what do you think would happen to me?
Why cant we be saved by grace alone, while accepting that we must obey Him?
You only make my point, "where is the conviction" : p I agree, his heart is not set on the Lord, and he continues to do what is wrong. He tells himself he is covered by grace, that he is not under the law, and he lets his confusion lead him to believe he will be saved because he believed Christ died for his sins, not understanding that he must come to Him. Just thinking that all he must do is believe that Christ died for him.
And no I already told you in my post before this^ that I fail, and I am covered by His grace. But I know that I have done wrong, I repent and ask for His help, and I follow Him. I do not give myself up as a slave for my desires, and I ask for His help to keep me from sin.
I almost always find that in the end, people end up agreeing with me, but they just cant let themselves say "we must obey the Lord", they are afraid to say anything outside grace. Even if they stand by the Gospel, that we are saved by grace and not the law, they cant let themselves say "yes, we must obey the Lord and repent of our sins". And thats my problem with this whole thread. This kind of talk leads to confusion, and leads to people taking verses like "we are no longer under the law" in a way it was not meant to be, and let themselves do whatever is pleasing to them. And I think it is wrong to let people follow this path.
I read what you wrote, you wrote that if you were rescued from your sin, would you not want to go back? And I agree, I agree that I was saved from death, which came from sin. I believe that sin leads to death. I believe that rebelling against God is sin. I now believe that I must follow Him in order to be saved. I believe that He will forgive my sins, and that I must turn from my sins.
Im well aware that you will try to make me sound foolish for saying we must obey Him by turning my posts around in this manner : p "Wouldnt you not want to sin? So because you wont you automatically do whats right and theres no worrying about obeying", but I want to obey Him, because I believe His path is good and right. If I claimed to believe in Him, and believed that sinning was good and right, what do you think would happen to me?
Why cant we be saved by grace alone, while accepting that we must obey Him?
You only make my point, "where is the conviction" : p I agree, his heart is not set on the Lord, and he continues to do what is wrong. He tells himself he is covered by grace, that he is not under the law, and he lets his confusion lead him to believe he will be saved because he believed Christ died for his sins, not understanding that he must come to Him. Just thinking that all he must do is believe that Christ died for him.
And no I already told you in my post before this^ that I fail, and I am covered by His grace. But I know that I have done wrong, I repent and ask for His help, and I follow Him. I do not give myself up as a slave for my desires, and I ask for His help to keep me from sin.
I almost always find that in the end, people end up agreeing with me, but they just cant let themselves say "we must obey the Lord", they are afraid to say anything outside grace. Even if they stand by the Gospel, that we are saved by grace and not the law, they cant let themselves say "yes, we must obey the Lord and repent of our sins". And thats my problem with this whole thread. This kind of talk leads to confusion, and leads to people taking verses like "we are no longer under the law" in a way it was not meant to be, and let themselves do whatever is pleasing to them. And I think it is wrong to let people follow this path.
I don't care for the blasphemous title of the thread. Accusing God of lying as an attention getter is not acceptable. Why can't we edit our own subject lines? God certainly did not lie.
The OP is operating under a certain set of assumptions, primarily viewing salvation as an event completely in the past. Here is a relevant passage of scripture:
I Corinthians 15
15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
The OP is operating under a certain set of assumptions, primarily viewing salvation as an event completely in the past. Here is a relevant passage of scripture:
I Corinthians 15
15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
E
Thats contradictory, You can not say we are saved by grace, then add works to the equation, That is not salvation by grace but by works.
wanting us to do right, and requiring it to be done to be saved are not the same.
One is making you earn it by your deeds, the other is loving you and wanting you to do what benefits you,
No I wrote if I admitted I was in such a desperate need because of my sin, I had to ask someone else to save me, Why would I want to go back Big difference.
Thats law not grace.
If God saved you by grace, because he loved you, He will keep his promise. He will want you to work, and want you to cease from your sinful habits, And he will help you do this very thing, But he will not kick you out because you still sin, No one could make it if that was the case. we all sin.
Im well aware that you will try to make me sound foolish [/quote]
Then we have already lost our ability to communicate, You are on the defensive mode, and not trying to understand what I believe, thus nothing I say will matter, whether I am right or wrong, Because you already assume something that never happened.
If you believed sinning was good, and ok, You have never repented, and thus have never been saved, so I do not get your point, Does God save people who have not repented? Last I read. No..
Because you have put conditions on being saved, and inserted your ability to be good as a condition to be saved, thus you have rejected the cross. and inserted your own works.
Now if you said you should do all you can to learn to grow in grace and knowledge, which will help you to obey him, then we could agree, When you add the word "must" you add works.
No, I do not teach this, Belief alone is not enough, it takes faith..
see, You do not understand what we believe, You think belief is enough, and we teach it, even demons believe, That will never save anyone.
yet you say you must obey to be saved, Where is your dividing line which separates obedience from disobedience, If we all still sin, (and you just admitted you still sin) WHo can make it?
so how it gets confusing, We must obey, but we still sin, so I guess we can't obey, You just admitted that when you admitted you stil sin
I will never say it, That would put me under law not grace,
I would condemn myself. Why can't you see this? God set the standard, and that standard is perfection. Only Christ lived up to that standard.
wanting us to do right, and requiring it to be done to be saved are not the same.
One is making you earn it by your deeds, the other is loving you and wanting you to do what benefits you,
No I wrote if I admitted I was in such a desperate need because of my sin, I had to ask someone else to save me, Why would I want to go back Big difference.
Thats law not grace.
If God saved you by grace, because he loved you, He will keep his promise. He will want you to work, and want you to cease from your sinful habits, And he will help you do this very thing, But he will not kick you out because you still sin, No one could make it if that was the case. we all sin.
Im well aware that you will try to make me sound foolish [/quote]
Then we have already lost our ability to communicate, You are on the defensive mode, and not trying to understand what I believe, thus nothing I say will matter, whether I am right or wrong, Because you already assume something that never happened.
If you believed sinning was good, and ok, You have never repented, and thus have never been saved, so I do not get your point, Does God save people who have not repented? Last I read. No..
Because you have put conditions on being saved, and inserted your ability to be good as a condition to be saved, thus you have rejected the cross. and inserted your own works.
Now if you said you should do all you can to learn to grow in grace and knowledge, which will help you to obey him, then we could agree, When you add the word "must" you add works.
No, I do not teach this, Belief alone is not enough, it takes faith..
see, You do not understand what we believe, You think belief is enough, and we teach it, even demons believe, That will never save anyone.
yet you say you must obey to be saved, Where is your dividing line which separates obedience from disobedience, If we all still sin, (and you just admitted you still sin) WHo can make it?
so how it gets confusing, We must obey, but we still sin, so I guess we can't obey, You just admitted that when you admitted you stil sin
I will never say it, That would put me under law not grace,
I would condemn myself. Why can't you see this? God set the standard, and that standard is perfection. Only Christ lived up to that standard.
E
2 Timothy 1:9
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,
Titus 3: 5[SUP]5 [/SUP]not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God
Paul was speaking to a group of people. telling them their faith may be in vein, meaning it never saved them, We all should make sure our faith is real and not dead. A dead faith never saved anyone.
oh and PS. it is blasphemy to say salvation is not eternal. Not salvation can not be lost. ,
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,
Titus 3: 5[SUP]5 [/SUP]not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God
Paul was speaking to a group of people. telling them their faith may be in vein, meaning it never saved them, We all should make sure our faith is real and not dead. A dead faith never saved anyone.
oh and PS. it is blasphemy to say salvation is not eternal. Not salvation can not be lost. ,
E
Nope. Now you using a strawman, Because I never said, nor did I ever suggest such a thing.
Another strawman, We need grace because the law is alive and well. and we can not live up to its standard.
If I could live according to the standard inposed by the law. I would not need grace, I would have earned my right to heaven.
You say obedience is required, That is saying we must follow the law (how else would you know sin) which is preaching works..
Another strawman, We need grace because the law is alive and well. and we can not live up to its standard.
If I could live according to the standard inposed by the law. I would not need grace, I would have earned my right to heaven.
You say obedience is required, That is saying we must follow the law (how else would you know sin) which is preaching works..
E
And?
If I have been saved, I am being saved and will be saved, because I was saved.
If however, I may not be saved in the future, I am not saved now. nor am I being saved. the word "saved" thus becomes just a word which has no meaning.
so just because someone claims to be a theologian does not make them understand the word of God, or its precepts.
If I have been saved, I am being saved and will be saved, because I was saved.
If however, I may not be saved in the future, I am not saved now. nor am I being saved. the word "saved" thus becomes just a word which has no meaning.
so just because someone claims to be a theologian does not make them understand the word of God, or its precepts.
My whole point was to show your way of arguing. You already agree that those who do what is wrong are not with God, yet you continue to accuse me of saying we must meet certain goals and achievements to be saved.
Its not that you have obeyed that saves you, because you have already fallen to sin. He gave His life on the cross so that you would not have to suffer that wrath. But those who go on to do wrong have no sacrifice made for them.
But you deny this when you say no obedience is necessary, and I say you are wrong. If we rebel against Him, even if we believe what He has done for us, we are given no sacrifice. So yes, saved by grace, but we must come to Him.
Its not that you have obeyed that saves you, because you have already fallen to sin. He gave His life on the cross so that you would not have to suffer that wrath. But those who go on to do wrong have no sacrifice made for them.
But you deny this when you say no obedience is necessary, and I say you are wrong. If we rebel against Him, even if we believe what He has done for us, we are given no sacrifice. So yes, saved by grace, but we must come to Him.
E
Because you do. When you say one MUST OBEY you are placing conditions.
why do you want to sit there and deny it? If its your faith, TAKE HOLD OF IT, and preach it..
secondly, I am not the one who says sinners are not with God, God does. So was God wrong?
Are you sinless? If not. You continue to do what is wrong, so how can you be saved and other people not be saved?
Thats what I mean to say you can not live up to your own standard (or you have to water down Gods standard) or else you can;t live up to your own standard.
Grace means undeserved favor.
You want man to earn it by obedience.. Thus you are cancelling out grace, and replacing it with works.
A man born of God can't live in sin, Those are Gods words, Not mine.. That does not mean they are perfect. it means they no longer live as they did before. in habitual sin..
Your argument is with God, not me my friend.
Because salvation is described over and over again in the bible as a gift, there is absolutely nothing you can do to keep it. You are teaching the Lordship Salvation heresy.
Yes, Christians can live as they please and still go to heaven. But God makes it clear, He will chastise His wayward children - even to the point of taking them home. But they can never be lost.
Sin is the only thing that separates us from God, and the bible clearly teaches Jesus paid the penalty for every single sin.
So it is ludicrous to say we must live a certain way or we will lose salvation, when Jesus removed the only barrier that would have us to do that.
What you said is not biblical. Luke 12:42-47 Christ gives us the story of the servant who was put in charge by his master. This servant became forgetful of his masters return and began doing things he knew he shouldnt be doing, and on the masters return he was cut up and given a place with the unbelievers. There are other verses in the bible about His followers being given a place with the unbelievers as well. So yes, Christ does teach us that those who go back to living in sin can be cast away from Him.