The Pentecostal and Charasmatic issue

[Blain]

So here is the thing, I was invited to Pentecostal church because i spoke to someone of some of the things I have experienced I didn't and still kind of don't understand what Pentecostal is so I looked online and it apparently is denomination in which they believe and apparently exercise the gifts of the holy spirit but more than that they put great importance on the gifts of tongues.

To me this sounded like Charismatic so i typed what it the difference between Pentecostal and Charismatic and I found a result but I sorely wish I didn't because now I am very confused.
According to this site here is the explanation and I apologize if this post is long I just didn't know where else to get sound advice except from cc


Modern Pentecostals are distinguished by three main doctrines:

The baptism of the Holy Spirit
The manifestation of speaking in tongues
The manifestation of divine healing.

Speaking in tongues, also known as glossolalia, is seen as proof of the baptism with the Holy Spirit. This is one of the differences between Pentecostal and Charismatic theology. See The Doctrine of Tongues (Harold MacKay) and Speaking in Tongues (Lehman Strauss). This experience of Spirit baptism and its initial evidence in tongue speaking must be earnestly sought by believers. It doesn't just happen; conditions must be met. Consciously, fervently, actively the seeker has to do these things. Often, too, he needs the assistance of others already filled with the Spirit. These must pray for him, lay hands on him before the Spirit will come. These conditions vary, but generally they are: worship, joyous faith, earnest expectation, praise and thanksgiving, obedience, separation from sin, intense desire, baptism, asking of God, etc.

Pentecostals differ from Fundamentalists by placing more emphasis on personal spiritual experience and, in most cases, by allowing women in ministry. For an interesting article from the reformed perspective on Pentecostalism, see Pentecostalism: Its identity, History and influence and Pentecostalism in light of the Word.





Charismatics differ from Pentecostals in their attitude towards doctrine. In the charismatic movement doctrine is seen as dividing believers. They shun the Biblical teaching on separation and encourage those who have ‘received the baptism’ to remain in their churches and denominations. As well, while Charismatics believe in the doctrine of Tongues, they do not place as much of an emphasis on this doctrine as Pentecostals do. In other words, it is possible to receive the baptism and not speak in tongues. See The Doctrine of Tongues (Harold MacKay) and Speaking in Tongues (Lehman Strauss)

Charismatics teach that you can get more of the Holy Spirit by being filled with the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 5:18). For a discussion on this topic see The filling of the Spirit, (Eph. 5:18) (Mark Swaim) and also The Filling of the Holy Spirit



I am going to make a second post so that this post is not terribly long to read

 

[Blain]

this is mainly a short version of what I read on the site but then I read this third part called the third wave and then I was very confused


1. Those associated with this movement do not wish to be labeled “Pentecostal” or “charismatic.” despite sharing Pentecostal-like experiences and doctrines. They simply wish to be known as evangelicals who are open to the Holy Spirit.

2. They are Gnostics. They believe God can and does communicate outside of the Scripture and directly to His children, giving new revelation that is apart from Scripture. Third Wavers thus deny the sufficiency of Scripture.

3. Five-Fold Ministry is one of the "truths" God is supposedly restoring to the church and is associated with the Latter Rain Movement. This is a system of church government with apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. See The Faulty Foundation of the Five-Fold Ministry by Robert M. Bowman.

4. In these end times, God is re-establishing the offices of prophet and apostle with the power and authority beyond anything experienced by the Old Testament prophets and the New Testament apostles. For more information, see False Prophets, Pseudo Apostles, and a New Gospel

5. Unity is far more important than doctrine. Unity is built through relationships, not doctrine. Doctrinal differences are set aside. As a result, those riding this wave are able to infiltrate various churches with the goal of influencing the church to accept the vision of the Third Wave which is unity under modern day apostles and prophets.

6. Power Evangelism and Power Encounters. Jesus and the apostles met the needs of people by healing, casting out demons, and even raising the dead. These miracles made people interested in the Good News. This is how we should evangelize today. A Power Encounter happens when the Kingdom of God encounters the Kingdom of Satan. It is here when God shows his power over Satan and people turn to the Lord.

7. Those associated with this movement are not waiting for the return of Christ but for the Church to rise up and usher in the kingdom. The ushering in of the kingdom depends on the church. Instead of looking for the coming Savior, the church is to solve the problems of planet earth. God’s glory now replaces the physical Son of God coming back.

8. Individuals can be demonized; that is, a demon can live within a part of the body. Even a Christian can be demonized. A demon cannot inhabit the spirit of a Christian, but a demon can live in the body of a Christian.

 

[Blain]

After reading this I was confused because I appear to have traits of all three of these things and the way it's described didn't sound like a good thing to me.

After this I said God that I don't know where I fit in all this, it's true that I was baptized by the holy spirit when saved and I only know this because of the power of God burning inside me and all around me and filled with life but I never experienced tongues or received divine healing and charismatics if I understand the writing are similar but don't put as much importance on tongues and rely on more personal experiences but then what the site called the third wave really wrecked my brain.

It is true that I don't really see a great importance of tongues nor do I have the gift of healing although I am always willing but I also do not hold personal experiences( even though I have had many) over scripture I do hate how doctrine and denominations divide the body but I don't infiltrate the church I do not believe in once saved always saved but I certainly don't believe a demon can possess a Christian.

I just wanted to know the difference between the two denominations and ended up confused and my question unanswered

 

[wattie]

Chalk and Cheese

I believe- 'the church' is a local assembly only. Either of one in particular (at Ephesus, at Phillipi) or the phrase 'the church' representing all churches plural (On this rock I will build my church)

Most Pentecostals and Charismatics believe-- 'the church' is every true believer'

What I call the Family of God.. they call the Body of Christ.

I believe- the gifts of the Holy Spirit have fulfilled their purpose with the completion of canon and death of the apostles. All that remains is the gifts of faith, hope and love now.

Pentecostals and charismatics obviously believe all gifts are for now..sign and ministry gifts.. not ceased yet.. but ceasing when Jesus comes back (they believe 'that which is perfect' in 1 Corinthians 13 is 'the 2nd coming of Jesus'.. generally)

I believe the baptism of the Holy Spirit was a past event that happened to assembled christians new churches who were specially empowered by Jesus to spread the gospel and establish more churches. (Churches as in New Testament assemblies of saved baptised believers.. not buildings) Acts 2-- an account of God using languages to spread the gospel and build more churches in His Kingdom.

Pentecostals and Charismatics will generally associate baptism of the Holy Spirit with being given eternal salvation individually to each person.. or as a 2nd experience after salvation confirming eternal salvation.

I believe all truth in Christianity is found in the bible.. in God's Word. There is no other truth outside of it. No New Way or New Truth.

Some Pentecostals and Charismatics will accept mystical experiences that add to the bible, or in some cases.. contradict the bible.

I would associate the experience the church at Corinth had with the gifts of the Holy Spirit as an immature church and operating gifts of the HS in the wrong manner. Paul was adament with them they were not getting it right.

Many Pentecostals and Charismatics MIMIC the church of Corinth.

It goes on and on.


Anyway..

My question is..

So there are a whole lot of people who post in this site who believe that all gifts are for now..but don't actually call themselves charismatic or pentecostal.

How is this so?

Are you non-denominational but adhere to similar doctrine?

Are you 'bapti-costal'? Baptists that believe in all gifts for now?

Are you 'Anglican' but accept all gifts are for now?

I don't get that part of it.

 

[Blain]

Well wattie to answer your question and I can't speak for everyone but as I said these denominations are a thorn in my side because as I said it only splits the body of Christ as Jesus said how can a kingdom stand against itself? I don't even like to call myself denominational because that itself is classified as a denomination.

All I can say is I am that I am, whatever it is God needs or wants me to be then that is what I will be if he asks he will receive

 

[chancer]

No, just because some people believe that the gifts haven't ceased, doesn't mean they want to be categorised in the same box, as someone elses narrow definitions and understanding of a pentecostals or Charismatics. Where does scripture use these terms to explain the differences between believers?

 

[Blain]

No, just because some people believe that the gifts haven't ceased, doesn't mean they want to be categorised in the same box, as someone elses narrow definitions and understanding of a pentecostals or Charismatics. Where does scripture use these terms to explain the differences between believers?

That's an amazing question chancer what does scripture say to explain it? I honestly don't know

 

[chancer]

That's an amazing question chancer what does scripture say to explain it? I honestly don't know

I don't think anyone can, so thats why I personally believe unity and relationship is more important, because no one can agree otherwise, but we can all agree in our love and devotion to the Lord.

 

[TMS]

Unity is Good But many people have been united in error.
it is important to be founded on the truth.

1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.



In order to have unity we don't need to compromise the truth.
United in Truth should be our aim.

But what is truth?

 

[TMS]

Are people willing to hear anything different, if it means change or repentance?

 

[Demi777]

Well I feel the safest in Pentecostal and charismatic churches. But in the end you have black sheep in all denominations. Lets just go there where we feel the most secure and where God sends us. We all if baptists,charismatic,Pentecostal,catholic,Lutheran ,.. are all part of the body of Christ. All have black sheep, all have truthful parts and all also have their black spots some more, some less. All have extremists, all have ''fence sitters'' lets focus on the purpose of the body of Christ and lesser what divides because in the end we are in the end times and Pickering like chickens in the chicken coop about what denomination is of hell and what is best will not do any good.

 

[Richie_2uk]

Are people willing to hear anything different, if it means change or repentance?

many people are so caught up in Sin, The enemy is laughing at them. some people so used to sinning, it comes natural and without thought. So when they do are challenged to hear something different, Like the truth, or the word repent, many of those people close there ears. All we can do is pray for them, and let god deal with them.

 

[Blain]

I have for a long time experienced many things with the holy spirit and the supernatural and for the longest time I have wanted to be able to either be in a church who can help me understand these things or speak to someone who has a deep understanding of it so I can learn and actually understand why I am shown and experience these things but I have never found any church or anyone like that.

But to call me charismatic Pentecostal or putting me under any title or denomination is incorrect I do not fully fit into any one denomination and I do not hold a stone firm view on my views and beliefs and doctrines as I have a teachable heart and am willing to learn and grow even if it means my own views and beliefs were in the wrong but more importantly I am and will be whatever he desires I am not any one thing for him and do not fit into any one realm of the spirit

 

[wincam]

it has not been fully grasped and accepted that Pentecost was unique, special, one off and unrepeatable and served a very very special purpose no longer now needed - the Holy Spirit has not been and is not now available and on call to all and sundry[Jn.14:17] - wincam

 

[hornetguy]

I have for a long time experienced many things with the holy spirit and the supernatural and for the longest time I have wanted to be able to either be in a church who can help me understand these things or speak to someone who has a deep understanding of it so I can learn and actually understand why I am shown and experience these things but I have never found any church or anyone like that.

But to call me charismatic Pentecostal or putting me under any title or denomination is incorrect I do not fully fit into any one denomination and I do not hold a stone firm view on my views and beliefs and doctrines as I have a teachable heart and am willing to learn and grow even if it means my own views and beliefs were in the wrong but more importantly I am and will be whatever he desires I am not any one thing for him and do not fit into any one realm of the spirit

Blain, brother..... I think you are worrying yourself about things that should be of no concern.

Why try to "pigeon-hole" yourself? What you experience in your spiritual walk is between you and God. It does not have to conform to any label, or "name". If we read what is said about the gifts, speaking in tongues is the LEAST desirable. If you do, great... I wouldn't say that you don't. That is between you and God.

What bothers me is the stubborn insistence by the charismatic/Pentecostal/spirit filled folks that if you DON'T speak in tongues, you don't "have" the Spirit.. They are putting THEIR restrictions on other believers as a proof of faith. Do NOT fall into that trap.

I believe we should all be "Christians"..... that term covers it, and names us correctly.

Our experiences with any manifestation of the Spirit should be ours alone, in my opinion. When believers start comparing themselves to other believers, doubts and jealousy can be the result.

Enjoy what you have, and who you are, in God, brother..... you are uniquely YOU.... don't let others make you feel any less than a child of God.

 

[1ofthem]

Well I feel the safest in Pentecostal and charismatic churches. But in the end you have black sheep in all denominations. Lets just go there where we feel the most secure and where God sends us. We all if baptists,charismatic,Pentecostal,catholic,Lutheran ,.. are all part of the body of Christ. All have black sheep, all have truthful parts and all also have their black spots some more, some less. All have extremists, all have ''fence sitters'' lets focus on the purpose of the body of Christ and lesser what divides because in the end we are in the end times and Pickering like chickens in the chicken coop about what denomination is of hell and what is best will not do any good.

Good post Demi. I was raised in a situation where half my family were Baptist and the other half Pentecostal/Holiness. I was confused with their different beliefs. I came to learn that there were good people in each of those denominations as well as some extremists on each side. I don't like to call myself by any denominational name now because I believe that we are all striving for the same goal and that is to serve God and make it to heaven.

With that being said, I will say that I am like you and feel comfortable with Pentecostal Churches. I enjoy Pentecostal church services as long as it is the true Spirit of God working. In those situations you feel up lifted and encouraged. But I have also been in services where some people are putting on a show. When it is the true Spirit of God moving, it is beautiful and holy, but when it is people within themselves it is ugly and scary.

I went to a Pentecostal church one time. They were singing and then all of a sudden everyone in the Church jumped up and started dancing around or what most Pentecostals call shouting. It looked like those folks were just at a concert or bar and just dancing in themselves for a show and each appeared to be trying to out do the other one or something. I had an awful feeling come over me that scared me and I immediately left the building.

But I have been in meetings where the true Spirit of God has took over and you would see little 80 or 90 year old ladies and men who were so feeble that they almost had to be carried in the church, get up with the power of God on them and dance around like they were 16. Then as soon as the power was off of them they would sit back down.

 

[ember]

Blain, brother..... I think you are worrying yourself about things that should be of no concern.

Why try to "pigeon-hole" yourself? What you experience in your spiritual walk is between you and God. It does not have to conform to any label, or "name". If we read what is said about the gifts, speaking in tongues is the LEAST desirable. If you do, great... I wouldn't say that you don't. That is between you and God.

What bothers me is the stubborn insistence by the charismatic/Pentecostal/spirit filled folks that if you DON'T speak in tongues, you don't "have" the Spirit.. They are putting THEIR restrictions on other believers as a proof of faith. Do NOT fall into that trap.

I believe we should all be "Christians"..... that term covers it, and names us correctly.

Our experiences with any manifestation of the Spirit should be ours alone, in my opinion. When believers start comparing themselves to other believers, doubts and jealousy can be the result.

Enjoy what you have, and who you are, in God, brother..... you are uniquely YOU.... don't let others make you feel any less than a child of God.

a great response, but just one thing; this:

What bothers me is the stubborn insistence by the charismatic/Pentecostal/spirit filled folks that if you DON'T speak in tongues, you don't "have" the Spirit

this, would be more accurate

What bothers me is the stubborn insistence by some of the charismatic/Pentecostal/spirit filled folks that if you DON'T speak in tongues, you don't "have" the Spirit

otherwise, really good stuff

I'm neither Pentecostal nor Charismatic...grew up neither

 

[1ofthem]

Blain, brother..... I think you are worrying yourself about things that should be of no concern.

Why try to "pigeon-hole" yourself? What you experience in your spiritual walk is between you and God. It does not have to conform to any label, or "name". If we read what is said about the gifts, speaking in tongues is the LEAST desirable. If you do, great... I wouldn't say that you don't. That is between you and God.

What bothers me is the stubborn insistence by the charismatic/Pentecostal/spirit filled folks that if you DON'T speak in tongues, you don't "have" the Spirit.. They are putting THEIR restrictions on other believers as a proof of faith. Do NOT fall into that trap.

I believe we should all be "Christians"..... that term covers it, and names us correctly.

Our experiences with any manifestation of the Spirit should be ours alone, in my opinion. When believers start comparing themselves to other believers, doubts and jealousy can be the result.

Enjoy what you have, and who you are, in God, brother..... you are uniquely YOU.... don't let others make you feel any less than a child of God.

I understand exactly what you are saying here. The Pentecostal churches that I have felt comfortable in did not believe that you had to speak in tongues in order to be saved or make it to heaven. But I have been to others and heard of others that thought that if you didn't speak in tongues you would not make it. Some of those churches and ones that I have heard of, would try to teach others to speak in tongues which to me is not possible. In my opinion, that is a lying spirit and definitely not the Spirit of God moving on them. That is when it gets scary. And it is also scary when others try and get up and out do others (out dance, out preach, out yell etc.) to try and prove that they have more power with God than someone else. We know that God is not in that kind of thing because he tells us to prefer others above our own selves....No to try and prove we are better than anyone else.

 

[hornetguy]

a great response, but just one thing; this:



this, would be more accurate

What bothers me is the stubborn insistence by some of the charismatic/Pentecostal/spirit filled folks that if you DON'T speak in tongues, you don't "have" the Spirit

otherwise, really good stuff

I'm neither Pentecostal nor Charismatic...grew up neither

Yes... I agree.... that was sort of a "blanket" statement, which I know is not the case.... thanks for catching it, sis...

 

[Demi777]

Good post Demi. I was raised in a situation where half my family were Baptist and the other half Pentecostal/Holiness. I was confused with their different beliefs. I came to learn that there were good people in each of those denominations as well as some extremists on each side. I don't like to call myself by any denominational name now because I believe that we are all striving for the same goal and that is to serve God and make it to heaven.

With that being said, I will say that I am like you and feel comfortable with Pentecostal Churches. I enjoy Pentecostal church services as long as it is the true Spirit of God working. In those situations you feel up lifted and encouraged. But I have also been in services where some people are putting on a show. When it is the true Spirit of God moving, it is beautiful and holy, but when it is people within themselves it is ugly and scary.

I went to a Pentecostal church one time. They were singing and then all of a sudden everyone in the Church jumped up and started dancing around or what most Pentecostals call shouting. It looked like those folks were just at a concert or bar and just dancing in themselves for a show and each appeared to be trying to out do the other one or something. I had an awful feeling come over me that scared me and I immediately left the building.

But I have been in meetings where the true Spirit of God has took over and you would see little 80 or 90 year old ladies and men who were so feeble that they almost had to be carried in the church, get up with the power of God on them and dance around like they were 16. Then as soon as the power was off of them they would sit back down.

I went to a Pentecostal church once in the US and after that it took me multiple years till I dared to enter one again, I was just in the states for about 3 weeks and wasnt all too fluid in english yet and only had a german luther bible.
The people that did the bible study thought I had a demonic problem because the spirit of God didnt give me the translations to the german bible into english, nor could read the old KJV.
But by now I am just perfectly fine with em lol. Im even with the organists and stuff at our National prayer conference that started today (im only there tomorrow) and haven't had a problem with Pentecostals ever since.
I have 2 Baptist pastors in my family and never had a problem with them either. Ive always went to the catholic priest when I felt the need of a blessing.