Calvinism, Right or wrong?

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C

Chuckt

Guest
#21
Do you think the teachings of John Calvin are correct?
The Gnostic Origins of Calvinism Paperback – October 8, 2013
by Ken Johnson (Author)



The Dark Side of Calvinism: The Calvinist Caste System Paperback – January, 2004
by George Bryson (Author), Chuck Smith (Foreword)


The Five Points of Calvinism Jan 1, 1996
by George Bryson

Here is a free online book you can read from your browser:

http://www.alwaysbeready.com/images...s of calvinism_ weighed and found wanting.pdf
 
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Chuckt

Guest
#23
Suppose I could be a two-point Calvinist, if your information is correct. (I've never studied many -isms in great detail, beyond articles on them, have found pursuing teaching and commentators, closer to the belt of the Bible you'll never hear their names associated with any denominational -ism, most profitable. If it's man-morphed doctrine, you know what they say, "garbage in, garbage out.") But Total Depravity, much preferring Total Inability, and Perseverance of the Saints are in harmony with scripture, unless there are gory details associated with these things the paragraphs you offer don't detail, involving the capricious Calvinistic god that doesn't exist.
There are people who claim if you aren't a five point Calvinist then you aren't a Calvinist.
 
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Chuckt

Guest
#25
[video=youtube;2sEIbwZIeQE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sEIbwZIeQE[/video]
 
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Chuckt

Guest
#27
[video=youtube;c59ip-iDORI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c59ip-iDORI[/video]
 
J

JesusIsAll

Guest
#28
There are people who claim if you aren't a five point Calvinist then you aren't a Calvinist.
So are you saying I'm not going to get a secret decoder ring? Then what's the point(s)?

Suppose that would be like a Calvinist teacher, not to grade on a curve. Well, if the Presbyterians won't have me, there's always an open offer from the Mormons for some secret underwear.
 
C

Chuckt

Guest
#29
[video=youtube;P9EqEcApnJo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9EqEcApnJo[/video]

Dr. McGee calls Calvinism's Doctrine of Election a dangerous and frightful view of God. He also said, if he believed in this doctrine, he'd never attempted to preach the word of God and never try to lead anyone to Christ because there'd be no need of it.
 
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Chuckt

Guest
#32
[video=youtube;3bgcF0ZMJ40]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bgcF0ZMJ40[/video]
 
C

Chuckt

Guest
#33
[h=1]Dr. J. Vernon McGee Refutes Calvinism - Doctrine of Election and Free Will (Part 2)[/h]
[video=youtube;rMSEpACTmLY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMSEpACTmLY[/video]
 
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JesusIsAll

Guest
#34
[video=youtube;3bgcF0ZMJ40]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bgcF0ZMJ40[/video]
I'm no expert on Total Depravity, but as described in the OP, Adrian Rogers agreed we are slaves to sin until saved and set free, "none righteous, no not one," this a different topic than saying we have no free will: he didn't go to the fallen nature in the video. Adrian agreed that we don't seek God, rather must be drawn by the Spirit of God, that, otherwise, we'd never come to God. At least nothing in the OP paragraph is saying anything more, is saying anything unBiblical. If the OP is a comprehensive statement on Total Depravity, Adrian refuted none of this in that video by merely saying we have choices and once were not fallen, like Lucifer. I didn't hear him say we will come to God of our own accord, that there's no fallen condition, which scripture would also refute. Now, if Total Depravity has other hooks, like God creating depravity, that free will does not exist, this is another thing. But what in the OP depravity paragraph is not Biblical?
 
J

JesusIsAll

Guest
#35
Paul, Moses, David repented. No record of Calvin repenting, but he did boast about killing Servetus.
A bit myopic, too, that, according to the Lord, to hate in the heart is murder. Everybody here's a murderer at some point, points, still so, from some things you read. So, everybody's a murderer. It's always such a lame point, to hang a repentant brother's sin out to dry.
 

sharkwhales

Senior Member
Jan 31, 2016
280
25
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#36
Do you think the teachings of John Calvin are correct?
Total Depravity, - also called "total inability," ... all people by their own faculties are morally unable to choose to follow God and be saved because they are unwilling to do so out of the necessity of their own natures.
I think this is too simplistic. I agree that we have always needed God and are lost without God. However, we are able to choose -once god gives us a choice- and God has done this many times even before Christ (as paul talks about how some were justified by their faith). You could even say all of life is a choice that God has given us, with our lives existing within God as our choices are revealed.

Unconditional Election, - asserts that God has chosen ... his choice is unconditionally grounded in his mercy alone. ... Those not chosen receive the just wrath that is warranted for their sins against God.
I agree that salvation is initially framed by God's gracious offer, however it is fulfilled by our partnership and cooperation with the Holy Spirit in receiving Christ.

Why would God invite all men and then only 'elect' some of them? The invitation is pointless then.

How can we be justly punished for God's choice?

"Many are called but few are chosen" (matt 22:14) the greek here is essentially 'many are invited but few are elected' with the same term as used for 'the elect' elsewhere. There is an aspect of us that stands outside of time, like God, and it was given to us by God - our spirits. I believe the decisions taking place between our spirits and God's spirit are sometimes described in other tenses because they happen in eternity (heaven's time) instead of in our time.

Limited Atonement, - Some Calvinists have summarized this as "The atonement is sufficient for all and efficient for the elect."
I agree. But it is limited by our relationship with God. I believe God knew that some would accept God and some wouldn't. Whether you look at that relationship within time as something that will happen, or look at it outside of time as something that did happen, the defining factor is not something God is doing to people or something people are doing for God. It is a relationship God is having -with- us and we are having -with- God.

Irresistible Grace, - The doctrine holds that this purposeful influence of God's Holy Spirit cannot be resisted, but that the Holy Spirit, "graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ."
How can you willingly and freely come to someone you can't resist? This is not grace, it's control. This is an anti-relational concept of grace. There may be something within us that makes it impossible for us to resist God's grace, but that something is a part of who we are, not God's hand in the sock puppet. God gave us our own hearts and our will to do with as we please, so that when we give them back to God we are truly giving them, not just pretending to.

In a relational concept of grace, God's grace is the power to change, flowing outward from his heart to find all hearts that will respond to it. When they are found, a relationship ensues and grace continues to flow through it.

Perseverance of the Saints, - asserts that since God is sovereign and his will cannot be frustrated by humans or anything else, those whom God has called into communion with himself will continue in faith until the end.
I agree in essence, because even if individuals resist God, some are bound to answer the call. God's will, will ultimately manifest in reality. Some will definitely continue in faith until the end, but who exactly, is being revealed by this life.

Calvinism vs. arminianism has been debated here before. Here's something from another thread about it:

When a child is in a mother's womb, is it not still an individual child with its own DNA? And who is causing the child to grow, is it the mother's body, or the child's body? The answer is both, although the mother's body is doing most of the work. But if the child's body doesn't do any work, it becomes stillborn. You can't say it's all the mother or it's all the child, it's relational, it's a partnership. ...
When God chose to give us a choice, his choice contained our choice. They are not mutually exclusive. In the same sense, it is God's will that we have a will.. for as long as it takes for our will to grow into partnership with his greater will, or, for as long as it takes to reveal that it will never do so.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#37
I'm no expert on Total Depravity, but as described in the OP, Adrian Rogers agreed we are slaves to sin until saved and set free, "none righteous, no not one," this a different topic than saying we have no free will: he didn't go to the fallen nature in the video. Adrian agreed that we don't seek God, rather must be drawn by the Spirit of God, that, otherwise, we'd never come to God. At least nothing in the OP paragraph is saying anything more, is saying anything unBiblical. If the OP is a comprehensive statement on Total Depravity, Adrian refuted none of this in that video by merely saying we have choices and once were not fallen, like Lucifer. I didn't hear him say we will come to God of our own accord, that there's no fallen condition, which scripture would also refute. Now, if Total Depravity has other hooks, like God creating depravity, that free will does not exist, this is another thing. But what in the OP depravity paragraph is not Biblical?
The OP is not fully accurate. Total inability means that even regenerate man does not have free will. Man has become so damaged that essentially GOD must do everything for him.
 
J

JesusIsAll

Guest
#39
I think this is too simplistic. I agree that we have always needed God and are lost without God. However, we are able to choose -once god gives us a choice-
all people by their own faculties are morally unable to choose to follow God

The OP is not disagreeing with this, though, if you mean by God giving us a choice the drawing and conviction of the Holy Spirit, scripture clear no man seeks after God. We don't do anything by our own spiritually blind, fallen faculties of the flesh.
 
J

JesusIsAll

Guest
#40
The OP is not fully accurate. Total inability means that even regenerate man does not have free will. Man has become so damaged that essentially GOD must do everything for him.

As mentioned, I've never studied Calvin, always heard enough of him not care to hear more, when there are so many others I have wanted to hear from. Sort of suspected the OP may be just a peek under the rock! Thank you.