Calvinism, Right or wrong?

[TMS]

Do you think the teachings of John Calvin are correct?
T-U-L-I-P acronym

Total Depravity, - also called "total inability," asserts that as a consequence of the fall of man into sin, every person is enslaved to sin. People are not by nature inclined to love God but rather to serve their own interests and to reject the rule of God. Thus, all people by their own faculties are morally unable to choose to follow God and be saved because they are unwilling to do so out of the necessity of their own natures.
Unconditional Election, - asserts that God has chosen from eternity those whom he will bring to himself not based on foreseen virtue, merit, or faith in those people; rather, his choice is unconditionally grounded in his mercy alone. God has chosen from eternity to extend mercy to those he has chosen and to withhold mercy from those not chosen. Those chosen receive salvation through Christ alone. Those not chosen receive the just wrath that is warranted for their sins against God.
Limited Atonement, - also called "particular redemption" or "definite atonement", asserts that Jesus's substitutionary atonement was definite and certain in its purpose and in what it accomplished. This implies that only the sins of the elect were atoned for by Jesus's death. Calvinists do not believe, however, that the atonement is limited in its value or power, but rather that the atonement is limited in the sense that it is intended for some and not all. Some Calvinists have summarized this as "The atonement is sufficient for all and efficient for the elect."
Irresistible Grace, - also called "efficacious grace", asserts that the saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom he has determined to save (that is, the elect) and overcomes their resistance to obeying the call of the gospel, bringing them to a saving faith. This means that when God sovereignly purposes to save someone, that individual certainly will be saved. The doctrine holds that this purposeful influence of God's Holy Spirit cannot be resisted, but that the Holy Spirit, "graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ."
Perseverance of the Saints, - (or perseverance of God with the saints) (the word "saints" is used to refer to all who are set apart by God, and not of those who are exceptionally holy, canonized, or in heaven) asserts that since God is sovereign and his will cannot be frustrated by humans or anything else, those whom God has called into communion with himself will continue in faith until the end. Those who apparently fall away either never had true faith to begin with or, if they are saved but not presently walking in the Spirit, they will be divinely chastened and will repent.

These are the main five points that Calvinism teaches, Today they might be called something different but they come from the same place.
Are they right or wrong?

 

[wolfwint]

Well, its difficult to say right ore wrong. So far i see there is no denomination which is 100 % right in their doctrines.
I would not say that i am a clavinist, but this 5 mentioned points i would mostly agree (predestination yes, double predestination no)
Well, will be also very time robbing to running this threat. Because since the reformation time you find christians who will agree and christians who will not agree with calvinism. And it will not be solved during our lifetime! In heaven we will find who is right. And we will search for nothing any denomination. We will find only believers in Jesus Christ!

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

When examining Calvin's theology I think it's a great idea to ask one's self what kind of doctrine would an unrepentant murderer of the brethren come up with. In other words, what kind of religion would a man, who had a murderous heart towards those who disagreed with his theology, and was willing and eager to have them murdered because they threatened his hold on worldly power, need to feel like he was saved. That should put things in better perspective.

 

[wolfwint]

When examining Calvin's theology I think it's a great idea to ask one's self what kind of doctrine would an unrepentant murderer of the brethren come up with. In other words, what kind of religion would a man, who had a murderous heart towards those who disagreed with his theology, and was willing and eager to have them murdered because they threatened his hold on worldly power, need to feel like he was saved. That should put things in better perspective.

Is it not in endeffect doesn't matter what we find right? If it is not that what God finds right it is worthless!

 

[mpaper345]

Those who apparently fall away either never had true faith to begin with or, if they are saved but not presently walking in the Spirit, they will be divinely chastened and will repent.

It appears that Calvanism takes away any responsibility on the part of the person to effect their salvation,like the people God chose,have no choice but to follow God,and the people God did not choose,have no choice,but to be lost.

So it would be hard to tell them otherwise,because those who fall away,never had faith anyway,and once saved,always saved,it does not matter if they sin,or appear to not follow God as they should,even not be led of the Spirit at times,they will eventually do right before they die,and be saved.

It is true that God is in control,and we would think that all is directed by Him,but when it comes to salvation,there has to play a part on behalf of the person,for if God directs it all,and the person cannot do otherwise,then God's kingdom is not true love,but robotic love,which means love between humans would be greater than love between God,and His people,which that alone going against the love of God,testifies that it is not correct,for true love is part of His nature,which is a biblical statement.It testifies against the love of God.

Is God evil,He is not.God is love.God said that all are sinners,and fall short of the glory of God,and if you break the least of the commandments then you broke the whole law,putting everybody in the same boat,that it does not matter what sin you committed,from the least to the worst,you have broken the law,and the Bible says all sin can be forgiven.

So why would God chose some,and not choose others,when everybody is in the same boat,being sinners before God,and all sin can be forgiven,so how can you use the excuse that God did not choose some,for He knew they would be really bad,but breaking the law is breaking the law,and punishable no matter what you did,and look at Saul,and how terrible he was persecuting the Church,before he was saved,and God saved him.

God is not evil to choose some,and not choose others,when all are sinners,and fall short of the glory of God,and all sin can be forgiven,and condemn people that could not make the choice to follow Him,because they did not have a choice in the matter,for the reason for not choosing them would be invalid,seeing all people are in the same boat,and sinners,so how is God separating them from the beginning,if all people are on the same level with God,being sinners falling short of His glory,and all sin can be forgiven.

Is He choosing them based on their athletic skills,or their academic skills,or the color of their eyes,or the ability to hop on one leg for the duration of at least one hour,for He could not separate them in the beginning,according to a sin level,for all sin is unrighteousness,and all sin can be forgiven,and all people on an equal level,being sinners.

So that would mean that if God separated them in the beginning,who will dwell with Him,and who will not,why would He be choosing people to dwell with Him,that are just as guilty as the people He did not choose,and on the same level as them,and not choosing people,when they will do no worse than the people He choose.

That would mean they would be all equal to God,on the same level,and all guilty before God,so why would God choose some,and not choose others,seeing they are all on an equal level as being sinners.

So how would He separate them,if it cannot be based on their actions of offense towards Him,as sinners.

That would be like having ten steaks of equal quality,all the same,in taste,smell,and all that goes along with a juicy steak,nothing different concerning the steaks,but they are equal,and throwing away 5 of them,and saying,they are bad.

Is God throwing away people,that did not do anything different than the ones He chose in the beginning,and is not any different than the ones He chose,because perhaps,there is only room enough in heaven,for so many people,so not all can go,even if they wanted to go to heaven,like population reduction,like the cruel world likes to do by certain methods,to keep the population down,and the new age movement wants the population reduced,and do you think when they come to power they will be kind to achieve that.

God does not operate like that,and there is plenty of room in heaven for all people,and God is not evil to condemn people without them having a choice to have a say-so in the matter,for they are just as valid to receive salvation as anybody else,seeing all are in the same boat,and God is not going to separate them according to their sins,for all are sinners,and any other reason to separate them is nonsense.

The truth is it goes against the nature of God,that He is not evil,but love,and His kingdom is true love,and not robotic love,and that right there testifies that God would not pick and choose,who will be saved,and not saved,in the beginning,without them having a say-so in the matter,for all are equal to God as being sinners.

The truth.

The Bible says that many are called,but few are chosen,which God does the calling,and choosing,on earth,and many people that God called do not continue in that calling,so they do not get chosen,and if God chooses in the beginning,then why would God be calling people that are not chosen anyway.

The Bible says that a person legitimately saved,can fall away from God,and be cut off,for they were saved,and God said they must continue in that salvation,in His goodness,and if not they will be cut off,which Paul said if he did not keep under his body,then he would be a castaway,and lose salvation,which comes in to play,work out your own salvation,with fear,and trembling,because when we are saved then we have the responsibility to keep in that salvation,by allowing the Spirit to lead us,for God will not twist our arm to live for Him.

The Bible says if a person thinks they stand,take heed lest they fall.

All things were planned out in the beginning,so according to God,it is the same as if they happened in the beginning,which the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world,although we know it was a future event,so when the Bible says the saints are predestined to salvation,it means God already had the plan to give mankind salvation,so it is the same as if the saints had that salvation,and this salvation is to whoever wants that salvation.

The Bible says that God is the Savior of all people.

God commands all people to repent.

God is not willing that any perish,but all come to the knowledge of the truth,and be saved.

Jesus lights every person that is born,which means all people have the chance to see the light of Jesus,and be saved.

The Spirit,and the Bride say,Come,and whosoever will can be saved.

God is in control,and directs things,and everything goes according to how He wants it,but God has to allow that one thing,and that is to give people a choice concerning their salvation,because He is true love,and His kingdom is true love,and not robotic love,where the person has no choice,but to love God,like a computer that says,I love you when started up,but it does not,but has no choice but to say that,seeing no other alternative.

But while God gave us a choice concerning our salvation,God still gets the glory,for only by His Spirit can we make it to heaven,and many are called,and few are chosen,and not many noble,and not many mighty,are called,for God knows our hearts,before we are saved,and if in the right condition,that we want to know the truth,kind of hate evil,although we cannot abstain from it entirely,and are kind of humble,God will call us,and if we continue in that calling,then God will choose us,which that gives the person with the right heart condition,an advantage to be saved,which the Bible says no man comes to the Father,unless the Father draws them,and God said we did not choose Him,but He chose us.

So then God still gets the glory for us being saved,and intercedes for us,and if in the right heart condition,although not perfected,God will call us,for no person comes to the Father,unless the Father draws them,which He will begin to work in that person's life to get them to the truth,and if they continue in that calling,then God will choose them,for we did not choose God,but God chose us,because we cannot actually find God,unless He intercedes for us.

But the final push has to be a choice on our part to accept salvation,but God gets the glory,for we could of not gotten there,to that point,without the intercession of God,and His working with us,to get us to that point.

Because God's kingdom is love,so the final push to enter that kingdom,has to be on our part,but God gets the glory,and it is true,He did choose us,but it was on this earth,and not in the beginning.

Which I know that is a wonderful thing to believe,and almost do not blame people for wanting to believe it,that once we are saved,there is no possible way to lose that salvation,which gives a person a sense of relaxation,takes away the worries,and gives them a comfortable ride,in a spiritual Cadillac,all the way to the kingdom of God,but that is an interpretation of the flesh,that God chooses,and not chooses,in the beginning,for although the flesh,and Spirit,are contrary to each other,and there is no good thing that dwells in the flesh,for the flesh wants to do its own thing,the flesh does not mind accepting the kingdom of God,as long as it can be on its level,which they will tone it down a bit,and they were quite decent before they came to God,so they were not too bad according to the flesh,so it is easy for them to accept,for they only engage in sins on a small level,but we have to enter on a spiritual level,denying the flesh.

 

[Budman]

Calvinism?

W.R.O.N.G.

Why I Disagree With All Five Points of Calvinism

 

[mpaper345]

for although the flesh,and Spirit,are contrary to each other,and there is no good thing that dwells in the flesh,for the flesh wants to do its own thing,the flesh does not mind accepting the kingdom of God,as long as it can be on its level,which they will tone it down a bit,and they were quite decent before they came to God,so they were not too bad according to the flesh,so it is easy for them to accept,for they only engage in sins on a small level,but we have to enter on a spiritual level,denying the flesh.

I want to scratch saying that,which I tried to edit the post,but was too late getting to it,and the time limit expired,for I cannot judge people like that,because they might not engage in sin,but only like the comfort zone that Calvanism gives them,but I do believe for the most part that they like that belief,because if they do decide to sin,and keep it for awhile,they believe they are alright,but I cannot say that for all,although I believe it is true.

 

[KenAllan]

People HATE Calvinism for the very fact Calvinism teaches its God that is in control of everything and not us. Most Christians want to believe it was because of them looking for God and finding Him that is the reason they are a Christian.

People need to wake up and realize if it were not for God choosing us from the beginning of time we would have never accepted Jesus as our Lord and Savior!

We NEVER went looking for God!

As to why some were chosen and others were not is a matter to be taken up with God when we see Him. Who are we to question God as to who He chooses?

Like the Scriptures say "there are NONE who seek after God!"

 

[FreeNChrist]

Like the Scriptures say "there are NONE who seek after God!"

Which is why we should thank God that He seeks after all (John 12:32).

 

[notuptome]

Calvinism is both right and wrong. It is one mans attempt to quantify and describe the great work of God in the salvation of men's souls. Many well meaning men have written about Calvin and in so doing made the man long after his death say things he never said.

There is a sense in which all five points can be made biblical and another sense in which none are seen as biblical.

This is also known as lapsarianism which has several sub-sects.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Depleted]

Do you think the teachings of John Calvin are correct?
T-U-L-I-P acronym

Total Depravity, - also called "total inability," asserts that as a consequence of the fall of man into sin, every person is enslaved to sin. People are not by nature inclined to love God but rather to serve their own interests and to reject the rule of God. Thus, all people by their own faculties are morally unable to choose to follow God and be saved because they are unwilling to do so out of the necessity of their own natures.
Unconditional Election, - asserts that God has chosen from eternity those whom he will bring to himself not based on foreseen virtue, merit, or faith in those people; rather, his choice is unconditionally grounded in his mercy alone. God has chosen from eternity to extend mercy to those he has chosen and to withhold mercy from those not chosen. Those chosen receive salvation through Christ alone. Those not chosen receive the just wrath that is warranted for their sins against God.
Limited Atonement, - also called "particular redemption" or "definite atonement", asserts that Jesus's substitutionary atonement was definite and certain in its purpose and in what it accomplished. This implies that only the sins of the elect were atoned for by Jesus's death. Calvinists do not believe, however, that the atonement is limited in its value or power, but rather that the atonement is limited in the sense that it is intended for some and not all. Some Calvinists have summarized this as "The atonement is sufficient for all and efficient for the elect."
Irresistible Grace, - also called "efficacious grace", asserts that the saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom he has determined to save (that is, the elect) and overcomes their resistance to obeying the call of the gospel, bringing them to a saving faith. This means that when God sovereignly purposes to save someone, that individual certainly will be saved. The doctrine holds that this purposeful influence of God's Holy Spirit cannot be resisted, but that the Holy Spirit, "graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ."
Perseverance of the Saints, - (or perseverance of God with the saints) (the word "saints" is used to refer to all who are set apart by God, and not of those who are exceptionally holy, canonized, or in heaven) asserts that since God is sovereign and his will cannot be frustrated by humans or anything else, those whom God has called into communion with himself will continue in faith until the end. Those who apparently fall away either never had true faith to begin with or, if they are saved but not presently walking in the Spirit, they will be divinely chastened and will repent.

These are the main five points that Calvinism teaches, Today they might be called something different but they come from the same place.
Are they right or wrong?

Actually, TULIP wasn't Calvin at all. It was some scholars rebutting a guy who thought he understood better than Calvin.

Is Calvin right or wrong? Yes. He was both. Like all people, he got some stuff right and some stuff wrong.

Is TULIP right or wrong? It's biblical, therefore it is right.

 

[Depleted]

When examining Calvin's theology I think it's a great idea to ask one's self what kind of doctrine would an unrepentant murderer of the brethren come up with. In other words, what kind of religion would a man, who had a murderous heart towards those who disagreed with his theology, and was willing and eager to have them murdered because they threatened his hold on worldly power, need to feel like he was saved. That should put things in better perspective.

You're right. Paul helped murder Stephen so why in the world should he be one of the apostles? Ludicrous!

 

[JesusIsAll]

Suppose I could be a two-point Calvinist, if your information is correct. (I've never studied many -isms in great detail, beyond articles on them, have found pursuing teaching and commentators, closer to the belt of the Bible you'll never hear their names associated with any denominational -ism, most profitable. If it's man-morphed doctrine, you know what they say, "garbage in, garbage out.") But Total Depravity, much preferring Total Inability, and Perseverance of the Saints are in harmony with scripture, unless there are gory details associated with these things the paragraphs you offer don't detail, involving the capricious Calvinistic god that doesn't exist.

 

[Depleted]

It appears that Calvanism takes away any responsibility on the part of the person to effect their salvation,like the people God chose,have no choice but to follow God,and the people God did not choose,have no choice,but to be lost.

So it would be hard to tell them otherwise,because those who fall away,never had faith anyway,and once saved,always saved,it does not matter if they sin,or appear to not follow God as they should,even not be led of the Spirit at times,they will eventually do right before they die,and be saved.

It is true that God is in control,and we would think that all is directed by Him,but when it comes to salvation,there has to play a part on behalf of the person,for if God directs it all,and the person cannot do otherwise,then God's kingdom is not true love,but robotic love,which means love between humans would be greater than love between God,and His people,which that alone going against the love of God,testifies that it is not correct,for true love is part of His nature,which is a biblical statement.It testifies against the love of God.

Is God evil,He is not.God is love.God said that all are sinners,and fall short of the glory of God,and if you break the least of the commandments then you broke the whole law,putting everybody in the same boat,that it does not matter what sin you committed,from the least to the worst,you have broken the law,and the Bible says all sin can be forgiven.

So why would God chose some,and not choose others,when everybody is in the same boat,being sinners before God,and all sin can be forgiven,so how can you use the excuse that God did not choose some,for He knew they would be really bad,but breaking the law is breaking the law,and punishable no matter what you did,and look at Saul,and how terrible he was persecuting the Church,before he was saved,and God saved him.

God is not evil to choose some,and not choose others,when all are sinners,and fall short of the glory of God,and all sin can be forgiven,and condemn people that could not make the choice to follow Him,because they did not have a choice in the matter,for the reason for not choosing them would be invalid,seeing all people are in the same boat,and sinners,so how is God separating them from the beginning,if all people are on the same level with God,being sinners falling short of His glory,and all sin can be forgiven.

Is He choosing them based on their athletic skills,or their academic skills,or the color of their eyes,or the ability to hop on one leg for the duration of at least one hour,for He could not separate them in the beginning,according to a sin level,for all sin is unrighteousness,and all sin can be forgiven,and all people on an equal level,being sinners.

So that would mean that if God separated them in the beginning,who will dwell with Him,and who will not,why would He be choosing people to dwell with Him,that are just as guilty as the people He did not choose,and on the same level as them,and not choosing people,when they will do no worse than the people He choose.

That would mean they would be all equal to God,on the same level,and all guilty before God,so why would God choose some,and not choose others,seeing they are all on an equal level as being sinners.

So how would He separate them,if it cannot be based on their actions of offense towards Him,as sinners.

That would be like having ten steaks of equal quality,all the same,in taste,smell,and all that goes along with a juicy steak,nothing different concerning the steaks,but they are equal,and throwing away 5 of them,and saying,they are bad.

Is God throwing away people,that did not do anything different than the ones He chose in the beginning,and is not any different than the ones He chose,because perhaps,there is only room enough in heaven,for so many people,so not all can go,even if they wanted to go to heaven,like population reduction,like the cruel world likes to do by certain methods,to keep the population down,and the new age movement wants the population reduced,and do you think when they come to power they will be kind to achieve that.

God does not operate like that,and there is plenty of room in heaven for all people,and God is not evil to condemn people without them having a choice to have a say-so in the matter,for they are just as valid to receive salvation as anybody else,seeing all are in the same boat,and God is not going to separate them according to their sins,for all are sinners,and any other reason to separate them is nonsense.

The truth is it goes against the nature of God,that He is not evil,but love,and His kingdom is true love,and not robotic love,and that right there testifies that God would not pick and choose,who will be saved,and not saved,in the beginning,without them having a say-so in the matter,for all are equal to God as being sinners.

The truth.

The Bible says that many are called,but few are chosen,which God does the calling,and choosing,on earth,and many people that God called do not continue in that calling,so they do not get chosen,and if God chooses in the beginning,then why would God be calling people that are not chosen anyway.

The Bible says that a person legitimately saved,can fall away from God,and be cut off,for they were saved,and God said they must continue in that salvation,in His goodness,and if not they will be cut off,which Paul said if he did not keep under his body,then he would be a castaway,and lose salvation,which comes in to play,work out your own salvation,with fear,and trembling,because when we are saved then we have the responsibility to keep in that salvation,by allowing the Spirit to lead us,for God will not twist our arm to live for Him.

The Bible says if a person thinks they stand,take heed lest they fall.

All things were planned out in the beginning,so according to God,it is the same as if they happened in the beginning,which the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world,although we know it was a future event,so when the Bible says the saints are predestined to salvation,it means God already had the plan to give mankind salvation,so it is the same as if the saints had that salvation,and this salvation is to whoever wants that salvation.

The Bible says that God is the Savior of all people.

God commands all people to repent.

God is not willing that any perish,but all come to the knowledge of the truth,and be saved.

Jesus lights every person that is born,which means all people have the chance to see the light of Jesus,and be saved.

The Spirit,and the Bride say,Come,and whosoever will can be saved.

God is in control,and directs things,and everything goes according to how He wants it,but God has to allow that one thing,and that is to give people a choice concerning their salvation,because He is true love,and His kingdom is true love,and not robotic love,where the person has no choice,but to love God,like a computer that says,I love you when started up,but it does not,but has no choice but to say that,seeing no other alternative.

But while God gave us a choice concerning our salvation,God still gets the glory,for only by His Spirit can we make it to heaven,and many are called,and few are chosen,and not many noble,and not many mighty,are called,for God knows our hearts,before we are saved,and if in the right condition,that we want to know the truth,kind of hate evil,although we cannot abstain from it entirely,and are kind of humble,God will call us,and if we continue in that calling,then God will choose us,which that gives the person with the right heart condition,an advantage to be saved,which the Bible says no man comes to the Father,unless the Father draws them,and God said we did not choose Him,but He chose us.

So then God still gets the glory for us being saved,and intercedes for us,and if in the right heart condition,although not perfected,God will call us,for no person comes to the Father,unless the Father draws them,which He will begin to work in that person's life to get them to the truth,and if they continue in that calling,then God will choose them,for we did not choose God,but God chose us,because we cannot actually find God,unless He intercedes for us.

But the final push has to be a choice on our part to accept salvation,but God gets the glory,for we could of not gotten there,to that point,without the intercession of God,and His working with us,to get us to that point.

Because God's kingdom is love,so the final push to enter that kingdom,has to be on our part,but God gets the glory,and it is true,He did choose us,but it was on this earth,and not in the beginning.

Which I know that is a wonderful thing to believe,and almost do not blame people for wanting to believe it,that once we are saved,there is no possible way to lose that salvation,which gives a person a sense of relaxation,takes away the worries,and gives them a comfortable ride,in a spiritual Cadillac,all the way to the kingdom of God,but that is an interpretation of the flesh,that God chooses,and not chooses,in the beginning,for although the flesh,and Spirit,are contrary to each other,and there is no good thing that dwells in the flesh,for the flesh wants to do its own thing,the flesh does not mind accepting the kingdom of God,as long as it can be on its level,which they will tone it down a bit,and they were quite decent before they came to God,so they were not too bad according to the flesh,so it is easy for them to accept,for they only engage in sins on a small level,but we have to enter on a spiritual level,denying the flesh.

God told Jonah to go to Nineveh and tell the people to repent. That was God's plan and Jonah's choice.

Jonah could have chosen to listen to God. Jonah chose to run away, booking the next ship going the other way. God brought a terrible storm that was sinking the ship.

Jonah could have just held on for dear life and hope everyone survived his last choice. Jonah chose to have the people on the ship toss him off.

God set into motion, way back when he first created fish, for a huge fish to swallow Jonah.

Jonah could have chosen to poke a hole through the fish to drown, or he could have snorted the fish stomach acids to destroy his lungs, or he could have chosen to ride it out.

God had that fish puke Jonah out onto the very beach at the very land where God chose to send Jonah in the first place.

Jonah then had the choice to walk away. Down the beach would have worked fine. Or he could do what God asked him to do. Jonah chose to walk into the gates of his enemy and preach REPENT!.

God had the Ninevites repent, which was obviously the reason he chose to send Jonah there.

And then Jonah had the choice of celebrating with his fellow believers and celebrating the God that united them or go home or pout. He chose pout.

Exactly where do you think Calvinist believe God gives no choice?

 

[notuptome]

Foreknowledge is not predestination.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Willie-T]

You're right. Paul helped murder Stephen so why in the world should he be one of the apostles? Ludicrous!

But, Paul listened when God knocked him off that horse and blinded him, telling him he had been wrong in his zeal to murder in the name of God.

 

[Willie-T]

God told Jonah to go to Nineveh and tell the people to repent. That was God's plan and Jonah's choice.

Jonah could have chosen to listen to God. Jonah chose to run away, booking the next ship going the other way. God brought a terrible storm that was sinking the ship.

Jonah could have just held on for dear life and hope everyone survived his last choice. Jonah chose to have the people on the ship toss him off.

God set into motion, way back when he first created fish, for a huge fish to swallow Jonah.

Jonah could have chosen to poke a hole through the fish to drown, or he could have snorted the fish stomach acids to destroy his lungs, or he could have chosen to ride it out.

God had that fish puke Jonah out onto the very beach at the very land where God chose to send Jonah in the first place.

Jonah then had the choice to walk away. Down the beach would have worked fine. Or he could do what God asked him to do. Jonah chose to walk into the gates of his enemy and preach REPENT!.

God had the Ninevites repent, which was obviously the reason he chose to send Jonah there.

And then Jonah had the choice of celebrating with his fellow believers and celebrating the God that united them or go home or pout. He chose pout.

Exactly where do you think Calvinist believe God gives no choice?

Uh, m'thinks you may have overlooked that "rightly dividing" stuff. We have a small consideration called "The Cross."

 

[NayborBear]

But, Paul listened when God knocked him off that horse and blinded him, telling him he had been wrong in his zeal to murder in the name of God.

T'was a farmer, who sold a mule to another farmer, claiming this mule will do everything you tell it to. After a few days, the farmer, being about 10 times past angry, brought the mule back, demanding his money back! "Look at this mule!", the buyer said......"GIDDY-UP!", the mule just stood there. "PULL!", same result. The seller saw the problem immediately. He picked up a short log, went and whacked the mule over the head, and whispered in his ear: "Giddy-up." The mule began walking. "Turn left". The mule, dutifully, turned left. "Stop", he said in a whisper still. The mule stopped. "How did you do that?!?", the buyer exclaimed. "Simple", the seller stated. "This mule will do anything you ask him to..........But, FIRST off,.....You have to get his attention!"

 

[Lancelot]

Total Depravity, - I believe that man is totally depraved from a moral standpoint, and that apart from the sacrificial work of Jesus we are incapable of standing in God's presence. However, I reject the idea of total depravity in the sense that we are incapable of even seeking God. There are too many verses in the Bible that contradict that. The Calvinist view indicates that because of total depravity God alone in His sovereignty chooses whom to draw to Him by His Spirit. That's wrong. If God is controlling the seeking and the choices then they're not genuine.
Unconditional Election, - See point #1. The elect are the elect because they have chosen to seek and choose to follow, not because God pre-ordained who would do so.
Limited Atonement, - Atonement was made for all men (I John 2:2), not just those who receive it. It is a misunderstanding of unlimited atonement that causes Universalists to conclude that since Jesus paid the price for all of mankind, everybody will be saved. The fact that atonement was provided for all men doesn't mean that all will receive it by faith. But make no mistake, it was provided for the whole world.
Irresistible Grace, - God's grace is always resistible. Eph. 4:30 tells us that we can grieve the Holy Spirit. I Thes. 5:19 tells us not to quench the Spirit. Heb. 10:29 tells us that we can resist the Spirit of grace.
Perseverance of the Saints, - This is the one point of five point Calvinism that I think has some merit. I believe in the perseverance of the saints in the sense that a true follower of Jesus will not turn away, but I reject any suggestion that man is capable of total sanctification this side of heaven. We will always have to overcome the flesh and choose to live in the spirit. You don't lose your free will to follow either God or Satan so long as Satan is free to provide temptation.

All Christians believe that God is sovereign, but the problem with Calvinism is that it has a distorted view of the sovereignty of God. It might sound pious and spiritual to say "GOD IS SOVEREIGN!" as a response to every theological point, but the Bible emphasizes continually our will, our choices, and our responsibility. It's intellectually and spiritually lazy to chalk it all up to the sovereignty of God. The homosexual says that God made them gay. The alcoholic blames his condition on genetics. Lazy people have an excuse for their lack of ambition (Prov. 26:13). It's just human nature to pass the buck, but every one of us is accountable to God for the deeds done in the body (II Cor. 5:10), and God's sovereignty will be no excuse on judgment day.

 

[John146]

Go back and read the book of Jonah again. Jonah never preached repentance. Jonah's message was simple, "yet forty days and Nineveh shall be overthrown." It was a message of destruction because Nineveh's wickedness had come up before God. Nineveh hated Israel, so in order to protect Israel and the "seed" from Nineveh, God would destroy them before they destroyed Israel.

It just so happens that Nineveh believed God at this message from Jonah and cried out to Him and maybe in turn, God would spare them.

Verse 9, "Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?"

Then we have God changing His mind (which Calvinists have a hard time dealing with).

Verse 10, "And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not."

God drove Jonah to go to Nineveh with the purpose of saving His people Israel.

God told Jonah to go to Nineveh and tell the people to repent. That was God's plan and Jonah's choice.

Jonah could have chosen to listen to God. Jonah chose to run away, booking the next ship going the other way. God brought a terrible storm that was sinking the ship.

Jonah could have just held on for dear life and hope everyone survived his last choice. Jonah chose to have the people on the ship toss him off.

God set into motion, way back when he first created fish, for a huge fish to swallow Jonah.

Jonah could have chosen to poke a hole through the fish to drown, or he could have snorted the fish stomach acids to destroy his lungs, or he could have chosen to ride it out.

God had that fish puke Jonah out onto the very beach at the very land where God chose to send Jonah in the first place.

Jonah then had the choice to walk away. Down the beach would have worked fine. Or he could do what God asked him to do. Jonah chose to walk into the gates of his enemy and preach REPENT!.

God had the Ninevites repent, which was obviously the reason he chose to send Jonah there.

And then Jonah had the choice of celebrating with his fellow believers and celebrating the God that united them or go home or pout. He chose pout.

Exactly where do you think Calvinist believe God gives no choice?