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To quote another CC member: "I believe in the Big Bang theory...God spoke and Bang! There it was".
getting dates about a young earth
- Thread starter Dan_473
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Job 38.25 - 41
Who has cut a channel for the flood; or a way for the thunderclaps, to make it rain on the earth where no man is, a wilderness and no man in it; to satisfy the waste and desolation, and to cause the source of grass to sprout? Is there a father for the rain? Or who has given birth to the drops of dew? From whose womb comes forth the ice; and the frost of the heavens, who fathered it; the waters hidden like stone, and the face of the deep is captured? Can you bind the bands of the Pleiades, or loosen the cords of Orion? Can you bring out the constellations in their season; or can you guide the Bear with its sons? Do you know the limits of the heavens; can you establish their rulership on the earth? Can you lift your voice to the clouds, so that floods of water may cover you? Can you send lightnings, that they may go and say to you, Here we are? Who has put wisdom in the inward parts; or who has given understanding to the mind? Who can by wisdom number the clouds or who can lay down the jars of the heavens, when the dust is melted into hardness, and the clods cling fast together? Will you hunt the prey for the lion, or fill the appetite of the young lions, when they crouch in dens, and sit in the cover of their hiding place? Who provides food for the raven, when its young ones cry to God and wander about without food?
Here we have Yahweh giving Job a clinic on creation.
Observe that God provides Job with a list of the creation BEFORE mankind!
Lions hunting for prey? Lions are carnivores.This means that they stalked and killed their food, as plainly stated in the text.
Ravens are omnivores – which means that they also ate meat – which means animal death.
So…as you can see, all these things transpired BEFORE the first humans.
Animal death existed BEFORE Adam sinned.
Period.
In fact, animal death existed in the Garden BEFORE Adam & Eve were expelled.
Dead.
Wrong.
There is physical death and their is spiritual death.
That is why we have an event called the 'Second Death'.
There would be no need for a second death if the first one was your 'death is death'.
Right the second death is the spiritual death. You'll find that one in Revelation rather than Genesis. Adam was made perfect, then he ate the forbidden fruit, death entered the world and he began to die along with everything else.
If Adam was truly perfect in his flesh before he sinned, then he couldn't ever be subjected to sin and thus death. There's a difference with his state in Eden than with the latter state of eternal Life through Jesus Christ in God's future Kingdom once death and sin are no more.
I realize some like to compare Adam's state before he sinned to our future state in God's future Kingdom, but it's different, since we will not even be subject to sin and death in God's future Kingdom.
With Adam and Eve's state, they had... to be subjected to sin and thus death, so that God's ordained prophecy of sending His Son to die on the cross could take place.
Well it's all hypothetical since they actually did eat the fruit. I agree we will not be totally like Adam before the Fall, we'd be better, but Eden is the closest reference point that our mortal minds can come close to comprehending, it's the only time when everything was perfect. Supposing they didn't eat from it, Adam and Eve would still be alive. There would never have been death and decay and all the bad things.
I disagree that man was made to be subjected to sin and death, for God made everything and saw it was good. It's the three lies which the dragon spoke that caused the cacophony of our current reality. It's the man's fault for listening to the woman, the woman's fault for listening to the dragon, and the dragon is ultimately at fault for lying and through those three lies comes all sins, and so the dragon called the Enemy and Liar is cursed above all other animals. Once sin and death entered the world everything became imperfect. Not only does man have to die, but the animals, and even the earth, and even the heavens and everything in them have to perish.
This proves God is a merciful God and a good God because rather than just wipe everything out right there and then, which be totally justifiable, instead God is long-suffering that some might be saved for the New Heavens and New Earth which are established by his Word (Jesus). We can even see the shadow of this as immediately afterwards God covered the man and woman with the skins, symbolically and literally covering their shame.
A careful reading of the passage reveals that the naming of Animals was a secondary reason for them coming to Adam.
It says that there was no helper fit for him. So having not found a suitable animal God formed Eve out of Adams rib.
The mind boggles imagining Adam considering possible candidates, everything from a Flea to an Elephant! Then in the end aha a Woman !! great!!
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You missed my point, and still did not answer my question. Typical blanket response...context.
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LOL do you really think that Adam considered all the animals to see if one was suitable for him. IT DOESN'T SAY SO. It was a general comment of the author to show that they were NOT suitable (and that God knew it).
The naming of the animals simply showed he was their lord.
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Your underlined portions don't actually speak of the time of creation, just of the absence of humans. The wilderness, with no man in it, need not be a wilderness prior to Adam; many places today are devoid of humans, because they are almost inhospitable to humans. God is teaching Job that He is master of creation (entity, not event). Your conclusion that there was death prior to Adam is not supported by these assertions.
Thats your interpretation of the passage its not how it reads if you take it literally which many seem to do. 'The Author'
by the way supposed to be Moses according to Jewish tradition. He is the one who also wrote about his own death and how he wasnt going to reach the promised land. Not a great incentive to carry on wandering about I wouldnt think.
I think looking at the big pic is good!
I think the other suns were also created "already in motion", some just forming, some burning out... our galaxy already spinning.
the other option, I think, is to believe the universe started as a Big Bang, or some other starting point, and evolved to its present condition over billions of years.
the issue I have with the billions of years is that to me it doesn't fit with the tone and feel of the scripture story.
I can see that possibility.
a related question would be what is the moon made of? all we are told is it's one of the 'great lights' in the heavens.
but, humans have visited the moon (unless one goes with the conspiracy theories).
it's made of rock.
for the sun, I tend to lean towards it being a giant fusion reaction, like a gazillion nuclear bombs going off every second.
ok, a possible point... what in the passage leads you to believe Job 38 is about creation, especially before adam?
myself, I'm not sure that animals ate meat before the fall, or maybe the flood.
on the sixth day, God says, "I have given you [man] every herb yielding seed, which is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree, which bears fruit yielding seed. It will be your food.
To every animal of the earth, and to every bird of the sky, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food."
true! I think another interesting thing is
that all the possible helpers are formed out of the ground, but none of them work out.
God then makes a helper for adam out of piece of adam.
I agree that the story doesn't state that adam is looking for a helper in the animals.
I think, though, that it is strongly implied.
possibly dogs were better candidates than the other animals, but still no.