Tithe!

Yet · Feb 22, 2016

Should we pay one guy for a few weeks service in the church as the temple servants. That would be one percent of the total tithe. So your 'pastor' should do his sermonizing for a few weeks for one percent of the total tithes on food and then quit and let someone else take over. Is that really what you want? Stick with the word now. Don't divert.

For the Levites in the levitical cities recieved the food stuffs which is the tithe of the land then they brought ten percent of that to the acting priests.
So what's my point? No church is following that prescription for paying the guy that quit his day job.

Its just as as clear as the pimple on the end of your nose....those that wait on the altar had their food provided for them. That's it. That's all she wrote. That traveling preacher had a right to some support. That's all you can take away from those verses.
If you are trying to prove from this analogy that tithes are required for the guy with the forbidden title that quit his job and exalted himself over God's heritage, your argument is lame and defunct.

Now plenty of scripture has been provided to refute the modern MO of Christendom. Because we use the bible and what it says, we are called bitter and that we 'hate the church' we are told that we need to repent. Now that's dodging those scriptures. That's spinning and dancing. A barn dance. I'm constantly accused of 'hating the church'. How many times must I say I do not hate the ecclesia. I hate the devilish inroads and doctrines that have stifled the body of Christ into oblivion, impotence. I want my brothers and sisters set free from heresy and apostasy that has them in bondage and weighed down, their gifts back shelved. Does that really sound like I 'hate the church'?
I thought that this was a place to discuss the word of God and teach, reprove, correct, and even rebuke.

Instead of accusing me of being bitter, of which I am not, you judge me falsely, News Flash: not suppose to do that.

You ere in that you claim to love God but refuse correction by His word. You refuse to accept His ways.
1John 2:4 He that says, I know Him, and keeps not His commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Still there is not one reasonable explanation from any of you for Acts 20 where all the pastors are commanded to work secular jobs.
Just one single verse and no one will be honest about it.

The apostasy away from clear truth in the 'church' is only suppose to get worse and worse according to your NT.
Im one of many that is sounding the alarm. If that means you think I hate the body of Christ, I'm sorry for your lack of discernment. Your NT warns of such lack of understanding will be the norm just before He returns. And that doesn't scare you one bit.
For iniquity shall abound and the love of many (for His word) shall wax cold.

Yet · Feb 22, 2016

Preaching the gospel. Gr: evangelize: to preach the good news, gospel. In the NT it always refers to the death, burial, and resurrection. To declare the good tidings. To witness of Christ.

Preaching is witnessing. The apostles and evangelists are synonymous. They traveled. They were NOT elder pastors in a local body, fellowship, congregation, assembly, gathering.

Preacing is not what goes on in a local body, fellowship, congregation, assembly, gathering.

They already know the gospel. Paul preached, witnessed to gatherings that were new upstarts. Once he established their footing, he departed.

If you check 1Cor. 12 and Romas12 you'll see all the functions of the local ecclesia categorized. Preaching wasn't one of them.

No head pastor either.

Yet · Feb 22, 2016

Pastor Swordsman. If every member of the body is ministering 2 or 3 at a time, decently and in order, does every member get a pay check?

Test_F_i_2_Luv · Feb 22, 2016

fredoheaven said:

This thread is getting off track somewhat, me thinks.

I noticed a post from December 22nd, 2015 was the first to bring Malachi into the discussion on tithing. It was even on page 2 of this thread & only casually mentions Malachi(to my surprise)!

While Mal 3:10 is often used to address how tithes are to be brought to the storehouse, it should be noted that in Mal 3:8 it states that people were robbing God of tithes and offerings. Not just tithes.

How, then, can those who use Malachi as support for teaching tithing state that 10% is the beginning of giving?

Tithes and offerings ought to be due, shouldn't they? Tithing shouldn't be the beginning of giving...tithes plus offerings should be the beginning.

------------
T/F statements for tithers to investigate:
1. T/F - All tithes in O.T. times were brought to the storehouse.
2. T/F - Tithes were always delivered to the storehouse by the tither.
3. T/F - Tithes and firstfruits and offerings are all the same thing; the words are synonymous.
4. T/F - In O.T. times, Israelites were allowed to eat part of a tithe.
5. T/F - In O.T. times, one tithe was due on agriculture and livestock.
6. T/F - In O.T. times, the first of every 10 animals was part of a tithe. It was to be the finest and best of the flock.
7. T/F - In O.T. times, tithing was done on agriculture every year.
8. T/F - In O.T. times, the Israelites were encouraged to tithe on cash/coins/precious metals.

hornetguy · Feb 22, 2016

Test_F_i_2_Luv said:

This thread is getting off track somewhat, me thinks.

I noticed a post from December 22nd, 2015 was the first to bring Malachi into the discussion on tithing. It was even on page 2 of this thread & only casually mentions Malachi(to my surprise)!

While Mal 3:10 is often used to address how tithes are to be brought to the storehouse, it should be noted that in Mal 3:8 it states that people were robbing God of tithes and offerings. Not just tithes.

How, then, can those who use Malachi as support for teaching tithing state that 10% is the beginning of giving?

Tithes and offerings ought to be due, shouldn't they? Tithing shouldn't be the beginning of giving...tithes plus offerings should be the beginning.

------------
T/F statements for tithers to investigate:
1. T/F - All tithes in O.T. times were brought to the storehouse.
2. T/F - Tithes were always delivered to the storehouse by the tither.
3. T/F - Tithes and firstfruits and offerings are all the same thing; the words are synonymous.
4. T/F - In O.T. times, Israelites were allowed to eat part of a tithe.
5. T/F - In O.T. times, one tithe was due on agriculture and livestock.
6. T/F - In O.T. times, the first of every 10 animals was part of a tithe. It was to be the finest and best of the flock.
7. T/F - In O.T. times, tithing was done on agriculture every year.
8. T/F - In O.T. times, the Israelites were encouraged to tithe on cash/coins/precious metals.

Only if you are living under the old law. I pity you, if you are, and I pray that you come to know what Jesus' death on the cross did for us..

StandingFirmInChrist · Feb 22, 2016

Acts 15:5 (KJV) 5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command [them] to keep the law of Moses.
Acts 15:10 (KJV) 10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Acts 15:19 (KJV) 19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
Acts 15:20 (KJV) 20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood.

Tithe teaching Pastors; tithe promoting church members; you should obey the Word of God. You should not be troubling Gentile Converts to faith in Jesus Christ with your tithe command.

I am a Gentile, born on Gentile soil and adopted into the family of God by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

According to Acts 15, tithe teachers' law was never meant for me.

Yet · Feb 22, 2016

I've been told that certain verses I use actually don't mean what they say. So where do you go from there?

Proverbs 13:13 Whoever despises the word shall be destroyed.....

And of course that verse doesn't really mean that.

That's how far the 'church' has fallen. That's how dark it is. The apostasy is upon us and very few care. Hear the snoring?

Im going to keep teaching the word of God. Hear me now. You who resist the Holy Spirit. The word of God that I've been hammering on is NOT for you. So don't read my installments. I write with a burning in my bones His truths and they are for those only that have not hardened their heart toward God. Those that hunger to be free of all the religious nonsense and bondage. All the filthy lucre lovers behind the pulpits of death having their egos massaged by adoring congregants (fans, groupies).

This word of God is for those that are watching for His return, praying 'even so Lord Jesus come'.

Their eyes are on Christ, not on Reverend Wonderful. Jesus said 'My sheep know My voice and will not follow another. Others are hirelings that care not for the sheep.' He also said 'the thief comes not but for to kill, steal, and destroy'. You say 'that's the devil...that rascal'. Wrong. Try reading the word sometime. It's men, the abominable cleric construct. Some are honorable in their ignorance of God's word, but by maintaining the cleric falsehood, they are unwittingly killing, stealing, and destroying the spiritual and physicals lives of His people.

Newsflash: He will not let that go unanswered forever. Pay day is coming just as sure as most of the 'church' is going to be fooled by the coming antichrist. Google 'Evangelicals bowing to the pope'. Discernment is dead as this forum proves beyond any shadow of a doubt.

Again. Don't read my writings. They are not for you.

hornetguy · Feb 23, 2016

I think I'm going to drop out of this discussion.... I think I've said all I can say on it, and Yet and I have agreed to disagree on some points.
Blessings to all...

Test_F_i_2_Luv · Feb 23, 2016

hornetguy said:

The overall discussion is veering off from the original intent of the thread.

My interest has been in defending giving with a cheerful heart and opposing the modern-day teaching of tithing.

I think the rest could best be addressed in a separate thread. I have no control of that, though.

Word_Swordsman · Feb 23, 2016

Yet said:

Should we pay one guy for a few weeks service in the church as the temple servants. That would be one percent of the total tithe. So your 'pastor' should do his sermonizing for a few weeks for one percent of the total tithes on food and then quit and let someone else take over. Is that really what you want? Stick with the word now. Don't divert.[/QUTOE]

You have consistently ignored the command of God, ordained of Jesus Christ, 1 Cor 9:13-14 in my post 717. Continuing to ignore that is evidence of twisting truth like Satan did with Eve.

All churches I know about do whatever possible to retain a pastor. Most pay a salary, but some are too small to support one, so they call on mostly men who are able and available to fill in a day at a time. All of those churches that are active in the community have a salaried pastor, some with 2-3 pastors. Some maintain a staff of full time employees such as secretary, bookkeeper (pay bills, orders supplies, etc.), at least one youth pastor, and some a staff for a grade school including equivalent positions public schools have, a music minister, and an IT/sound man, to list a few.

All the pastors in our alliance are full time, 5-6 days a week. There is too much demand for their services to try doing those with volunteers. Unlicensed volunteers can't marry couples per state law. Few unpaid people could manage funerals and the counseling through the nights, then go to a job by day, and carry out a lot more tasks I shouldn't have to list that keep pastors moving day and night. Besides those things there is the matter of intense study, teaching, preaching, etc.

Where in the Bible are Levites working day jobs as farm hands? Where did their clothes come from, and did they sleep under the stars? We know none could own land, so how and where do you think they lived? Do you believe Levites only received food? What Levite gave up a day job to go full time ministry?

Levites were born and raised within full time ministry of parents, their duties handed down to sons. The people with property had to host their local Levite and his family in their homes. So at the least, by your assessment of them, you should provide a room in your home and everything the minister of God needs if unwilling to pay him so he can live well enough not to be a shame.

What of a young college graduate of a Bible college that has been called to full time ministry, and takes a church position full time? Why not let a man leave his shepherding to be a prophet or king like David? Would you have rejected David because he gave up his day job?

Where does it say the Levite only got food? How did the priests of the temple carry out that huge task by receiving only food? The whole priesthood had ALL needs met by the people they served. The people tithed, AND gave offerings, including whatever they deemed holy unto the Lord, which included mounds of gold, silver, stone, jewels, etc., such that the priesthood prospered. Their prosperity pleased God.

Lest I fall into casting pearls before swine, I think what you are seeing is a repeat of dusting the soil off our soles, Jesus having told his disciples (Mark 6:11) to reject even whole towns that refuse to receive truth. Maybe. I'm not saying that's it, but if the shoe fits, wear it. You are against the Church as terribly as anyone I've seen except self proclaimed atheists online. Avoiding the modern church for whatever reason other than profound disability, while condemning what churches do to meet the demands of promoting the gospel, is the height of hypocrisy, a real example of unbelief.

Word_Swordsman · Feb 23, 2016

StandingFirmInChrist said:

True, the Laws of Moses would not be demanded of Gentile believers. Yet in that passage some specific commandments of the Law were in fact retained and demanded of the Gentiles.

Jesus quoted some of the ten commandments, but his commandments took a prohibition of adultery to not even "looking twice" at a woman, else be guilty of adultery by lusting. No Jew was taught that by the Law. The New Covenant raised the moral bar far higher than any literal saying of the Law, even the two greatest commandments to love God and neighbor as yourself. So it would be taking the lower road to stop at commanding them to keep the Law of Moses.

1 Cor 9:13-14 is an example of exceeding the letter of the tithing commandment. But since God instituted tithing coupled with blessing, it can't be considered ungodly, nor can you deny its blessing. Teaching people to disobey the Law carries a terrible price for Christians who do that and teach others not to obey even the basic principles of the Law. The Law is holy and good, though I agree, is not to be taught to Gentile believers as required, though they might actually prefer the "inner man" limitations in the absence of New Covenant teaching.
17“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

So, whoever cherishes and obeys whatever possible of the old, and does his new commandments, is blessed greatly. Believers who believe the blessings of tithing are theirs have every right to hear teaching of that, and to enjoy the blessings thereof. I do, so do many Christians. Every Christian has a right to try to find some other way to receive those blessings. I don't need to be convinced of the righteousness of tithing to fulfill 1 Cor 9:13-14, giving a pastor and his family as much dignity as possible in this culture and economy, and to exceed that with offerings galore.

Anyone that teaches in any manner that tithing is evil or not acceptable to God is a false teacher, subject to loss (reduction of by God) of whatever is gained in the kingdom of heaven. Teaching that circumcision is evil will suffer great loss, though we are to teach it won't gain a Gentile anything at all to adopt it or reverse it.

Keep in mind there are much higher principles demanded in scripture by Jesus and the apostles, commands few Christians meet. A good start is to do as well as possible whatever God has called good and holy, by the meagerness of the Law, which keeps them until growing up in the Lord Jesus. No, there is no place or need to offer burnt sacrifices, or haul trailers of hay to a pastor's lawn.

Neglecting the anointed of God, those put in places of service in the church, "tending the altar" in many ways, is a shameful rejection of precious principles of God. Fortunately we are not bothered by infidels (those outside the will of God who won't even feed their family) affecting us here, but see our pastors able to raise their children, have good marriages, serve the gospel, and edify the congregations so that we who are mostly without one or more of the major offices, can take part in taking the gospel to sinners around us.

Did you ever wonder why the people of America have by a great majority been favorable of churches being tax exempt? A major reason is that they have witnessed how the church cares for the needy world-wide as well as locally better than the minority of actual American taxpayers can, especially without putting the "soft slavery" mentality of welfare on them. We meet needs and we pay taxes, being taught that's the Lord's will simply because our society requires taxes. We obey the laws of man as much as possible.

StandingFirmInChrist · Feb 23, 2016

Who are “they which preach the gospel”? In order to learn just who the Apostle Paul was speaking of in his first epistle to the saints and faithful brethren at Corinth, we need to search the New Testament texts for any similarities.

Following is a list of several verses where we see the preaching of the Gospel...

Jesus “went about all Galilee...preaching the gospel” (Matthew 4:23)
Jesus “went about all the cities and villages...preaching the gospel” (Matthew 9:35)
Jesus declared that “the poor have the gospel preached to them” (Matthew 11:5)
Jesus said that the “gospel...shall be preached in all the world” (Matthew 24:14)
Jesus said that the “gospel...shall be preached in the whole world” (Matthew 26:13)
Jesus “came into Galilee, preaching the gospel” (Mark 1:14) ñ Jesus said “the gospel must first be published among all nations” (Mark 13:10)
Jesus said that the “gospel shall be preached throughout the whole world” (Mark 14:9)
Jesus told His disciples to “go...into all the world and preach the gospel” (Mark 16:15)
Jesus said that He would “preach the gospel to the poor” (Luke 4:18)
Jesus declared that “to the poor the gospel is preached” (Luke 7:22)
The disciples of Jesus “departed, and went through the towns, preaching the gospel” (Luke 9:6)
Jesus “preached the gospel” to the Jews in the temple (Luke 20:1)
The apostles “preached the gospel in many villages of the Samaritans” (Acts 8:25)

Paul and Barnabus “preached the gospel” in Lystra and Derbe (Acts 14:6-7)
Paul and Barnabus “preached the gospel to that city [Derbe]” (Acts 14:20-21)
Peter declared that “the Gentiles... should hear the word of the gospel” (Acts 15:7)
Paul relayed that God had called him to “go into Macedonia...to preach the gospel unto them” (Acts 16:10)
Paul said that he had “gone preaching the kingdom of God” (Acts 20:25)
Paul said that he was “an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God” (Romans 1:1)
Paul spoke of serving “in the gospel of his Son” and hoping for “a prosperous journey” (Romans 1:9-10)
Paul said that he was “ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome” (Romans 1:15)
Paul asked “how shall [preachers] preach, except they be sent?”
Paul said that he was “to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God” (Romans 15:16)
Paul declared that “from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, [he had] fully preached the gospel of Christ” (Romans 15:19)
Paul said that he “strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest [he] should build upon another man's foundation” (Romans 15:20)
Paul said that Christ “sent [him]...to preach the gospel” (1 Corinthians 1:17)
Paul said that he “came to Troas to preach Christ's gospel” (2 Corinthians 2:12)
Paul said that Titus “whose praise is in the gospel” was “chosen of the churches to travel with [him]” (2 Corinthians 8:18-19)
Paul said that he was “come as far as to [the Corinthians] also in preaching the gospel of Christ” (2 Corinthians 10:14)
Paul hoped “To preach the gospel in the regions beyond” the Corinthians (2 Corinthians 10:16)
Paul warned about someone “that cometh [who] preacheth another Jesus” (2 Corinthians 11:4)
Paul recalled that he “went up by revelation, and communicated unto [Jerusalem] that gospel which [he preached] among the Gentiles” (Galatians 2:2)
Paul said that he “preached the gospel unto [the Galatians]” (Galatians 4:13)
Paul told the Ephesians to have their “feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace” (Ephesians 6:15)
Paul said that he was to “open [his] mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel, for which [he was] an ambassador” (Ephesians 6:19-20)
Paul said that Timothy “hath served with [him] in the gospel” (Philippians 2:22)
Paul declared that “in the beginning of the gospel [he] departed from Macedonia” (Philippians 4:15)
Paul reminded the Colossians of “the truth of the gospel which is come unto [them]” (Colossians 1:5-6)
Paul encouraged the Colossians of “the hope of the gospel... which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof [Paul was] made a minister” (Colossians 1:23)
Paul told the Thessalonians that the “gospel came...unto [them] in power, and in the Holy Ghost” (1 Thessalonians 1:5)
Paul said that the Thessalonians “sounded out the word of the Lord...in Macedonia and Achaia” and that their faith “is spread abroad” (1 Thessalonians 1:8)
Paul reminded the Thessalonians of his “entrance unto” them “to speak unto [them] the gospel of God” (1 Thessalonians 2:1-2)
Paul said that Timothy, who had traveled with him, was “a fellow laborer in the gospel of Christ” (1 Thessalonians 3:2)
The writer of the epistle to the Hebrews declared that “unto us was the gospel preached” (Hebrews 4:2)
Peter reminded the Jewish believers in his epistle about the apostles “that have preached the gospel unto [them]” (1 Peter 1:12)
John in his vision of the Revelation saw an angel have “the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people” (Revelation 14:6)

After examining the nearly fifty verses dealing with those who preach the Gospel, it is evident that during the first century, the preaching of the Gospel was practiced in an atmosphere apart from and unafiliated with the local assembled Body of Believers

The preaching of the Gospel was to the lost, not to the saved! The lost, (out in the world) hear the Gospel, believe it and trust Christ. In trusting Christ, they are saved and added to the Church. (the Body of Christ)

Word_Swordsman · Feb 23, 2016

Test_F_i_2_Luv said:

What is wrong with doing both, if a Christian is willing, believes the Lord blesses both, and especially those who have tasted of those blessings? I noted that the largest church in the world Pastor Cho) requires tithing. It happens that one church is a vital part of the economy there, multiplied millions depending upon those one million tithers who are experiencing amazing blessings.

RobbyEarl · Feb 23, 2016

The tithe is a test of men hearts. Where your treasure there shall be your heart also. The rich young ruler walked away when Jesus said if you want to be perfect then sell all you have and give to the poor and take up your cross and follow me.

StandingFirmInChrist · Feb 23, 2016

RobbyEarl said:

Since there is no Scripture that states, or even implies that God tests our hearts through a monetary tithe, we can only conclude that the so-called "testing" is another invention fabricated by the deceitful teacher of the monetary tithe requirement lie.

RobbyEarl · Feb 23, 2016

StandingFirmInChrist said:

If you can't trust God with your money the you can't trust God with your heart. For where your treasure is there shall bve uour heart also these are the words of Jesus. Why did Jesus watch the tithe box? Why did He say that this women who put two pennies in the box was more blessed than the rich?

RobbyEarl · Feb 23, 2016

Typo's I'm not a good typist.

StandingFirmInChrist · Feb 23, 2016

RobbyEarl said:

I never said, nor did I imply that I don't trust God with my money. I said that God does not test us with a monetary tithe. The monetary tithe requirement doctrine is totally foreign to the Word of God.

There is not one verse in the Bible where Jesus watched a tithe box. You are confusing the account of the widow's mites with tithes. They were not the same. The commanded tithe was agricultural, not monetary. Therefore, the widow of Mark 12 could not have been tithing.

Another reason we know she was not tithing is the fact that she was poor, and the poor were not required to tithe according to the Law.

StandingFirmInChrist · Feb 23, 2016

RobbyEarl said:

You are also not good at rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

RobbyEarl · Feb 23, 2016

Standingfirm What is your beef. I have readd back through the post and why do you stand out against the tithe as you do. You know as well as I do that work of God depends on the tithe of the people it has been so since old times. Even the work of the OT temple depended on the tithe. The Levites received no inheritance their inheritance was the work of God through the Tabernacle and ultimately through the Temple. Now, the preacher preaches the Gospel of Our Lord Jesus Christ. Which is a better Covenant than that of Old. Should we shun them. It does not all go to the preacher but to the means that He should preach. If you enjoy and are indeed fed the word by your preacher-then you should give the tithe. He does not feed you with the bread of men but rather the food of the Spirit. Man shall not live by bread alone.

Tithe!

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