Tithe!

[Yet]

Crickets, crickets and more crickets. Instead of getting on the fastest horse and galloping outta Dodge, full throttle, why can't folks just admit their wrong and confess that the word of God is true after all. Them crickets are mighty noisy. They chirp volumes wouldn't you say?

1Peter 2:15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing (includes teaching the truth) you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men.

Some christians, few in number, can be reached with God's word...few I said, but the hardest of hearts are 'pastors'. To admit the truth of God's holy writ, they'ed be forced to give up their cushy lime light, money making job. For most, that's not gonna happen, not in a million years. To obey Acts 20 about the pastors working jobs?? R U kidding? What planet R U from?

Now the verse says 'the IGNORANCE of foolish men'. Where does that leave the 'pastors', so titled, that are NOT IGNORANT of God's truth on the lie of the tithe? They know they are shading the truth.....lying for fun and profit! No longer just 'foolish dumb men' but would it be safe to conclude 'EVIL men?'

The Pharisees in Matt.23 were arrogant, lying thieves robbing widows houses, subverting whole households for a buck.

Need I continue here?

 

[hornetguy]

Nah.... I think you have hit the nail on the head....

I'm about to have this discussion with a couple of my elders... get their thoughts on the subject.

Not a huge deal, but when it was time to "pass the collection plate" last Sunday, they had a display up on the screen that said "Tithes and Offerings". I've heard our minister mention "giving your tithe" a couple of times, as well. I'm pretty sure, at least from all his other beliefs/teachings, that he is simply using it as another word for giving, or contribution. I don't THINK he believes in the 10% thing.
If he does, I imagine it's time for a talk with him, as well.

for the most part, churches of Christ don't follow the "tithing" concept at all. They emphasize "giving from the heart"...

It will be interesting to see how this goes.

 

[Yet]

Hey hornet guy, easy with the 'stinging' rebuke! Just a play off your handle!

May I correct you on another point. You used the term 'our minister'. Actually that's unscriptural as well. If you check out 1Cor.12, Ephesians 4, and Romans 12, you'll find that every member of the body of Christ is a 'minister' in that they all 'minister(verb)' to one another in turn.
The salaried, one man operation minister called the 'pastor' cannot be found in the NT writings.
Please study this out, for most of the body of Christ are totally clueless on this. They do not discern the 'body of Christ' rightly.

Because the body has abdicated its responsibilities as an acting, ministering, alive, spontaneous, organic, corporate unity, outlined by said scriptures, it has fallen prey to the deeds of the Nicolaitans, the clerical/laity division. This incrementally accurred about 1800 years ago and has never recovered the losses. So the body lies dormant paying a 'professional', the pastor, to do all things ministry for them as they dose off in a pew. They are assigned to impotency. Students that never graduate. Their personal gifts and functions never realized.

They never grow up....into Christ..from Whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by all that which EVERY joint(believer) supplies according to the effectual working in the measure of EVERY part(believer) makes increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. Ephesians 4:15-16 Did you catch that? Not a pastor building everyone up, but every member ministering to build up each other. Never heard that what from the pulpit, have you. And for good reason. It would put that 'pastor' out of a job.

Where is Jesus? He was replaced by the hierarchical cleric system. He stands outside the door of Christendom for 1800 years now and knocks. The organized church refuses to answer. Those very few that hear that knock depart the den of thieves that man has erected.

 

[Test_F_i_2_Luv]

I've heard our minister mention "giving your tithe" a couple of times, as well. I'm pretty sure, at least from all his other beliefs/teachings, that he is simply using it as another word for giving, or contribution. I don't THINK he believes in the 10% thing.

Seems there are plenty of people who confuse tithing with offerings/gifts/sacrificial giving. Tithing has come to mean any amount given.

There are those who give either less than 10% or well beyond 10% and still refer to it as a "tithe".

Then, when a tithing opponent comes along and says we're no longer obligated to tithe, they(those giving less or over 10%) misunderstand us to be saying we don't believe in supporting churches/ministries.

I sometimes find myself having to spell out what a tithe(10%) is so people don't confuse my opposition to tithing(10%) with my support for giving.

 

[hornetguy]

Yet...that is correct...no scriptural basis for a paid preacher...but I don't have a lot of heartburn over having one..or songbooks, or a "worsip leader".. we've had that discussion before.
As long as the elders are keeping close watch on what goes on, and the preacher is not given any authority other than preaching. We just call them ministers, or preachers...to avoid the misuse of the term "pastor"..which is the same thing as bishop,shepherd,overseer,elder. A specific position in the church...the spiritual leaders, appointed and ordained..

 

[Yet]

Yet...that is correct...no scriptural basis for a paid preacher...but I don't have a lot of heartburn over having one..or songbooks, or a "worsip leader".. we've had that discussion before.
As long as the elders are keeping close watch on what goes on, and the preacher is not given any authority other than preaching. We just call them ministers, or preachers...to avoid the misuse of the term "pastor"..which is the same thing as bishop,shepherd,overseer,elder. A specific position in the church...the spiritual leaders, appointed and ordained..

But the problem is deeper than just the 'title' deal.

When one man is paid to do all things ministry, that leaves the body of Christ out of the picture contrary to what I have already submitted. I don't want to repeat everything I've already said so if you could just go back and re-read what I already wrote. You're not seeing it yet. No fussing, just discussing.

 

[hornetguy]

I think I remember what you said, for the most part, and I think we still agree on the "highlights"... our church, like most churches of Christ don't really dump all the ministerial duties on the preacher... although, I agree that it is more than should be "expected".
It's a little strange how things have evolved, however. Is it cart/horse? If you read comments on this forum from folks that have had illnesses, etc.. one of the biggest complaints they have is that "the preacher didn't come to see them". So, do you add "visiting the sick" to the duties of the preacher, or not?
Personally, I would prefer to see members of the church do the visiting... and that seems to be happening since the advent of small groups in most churches.
In my opinion, a preacher should be responsible for preaching... and not a whole lot more.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

But the problem is deeper than just the 'title' deal.

When one man is paid to do all things ministry, that leaves the body of Christ out of the picture contrary to what I have already submitted. I don't want to repeat everything I've already said so if you could just go back and re-read what I already wrote. You're not seeing it yet. No fussing, just discussing.

I see you are still a hater of preachers who take financial and other kinds of support from a congregation. You have totally missed the point of 1 Cor 9, 2 Cor 11, which support the proper take on Acts 20.
2 Corinthians 11:7-12 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Have I committed an offence in abasing myself that ye might be exalted, because I have preached to you the gospel of God freely?
[SUP]8 [/SUP] I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] And when I was present with you, and wanted, I was chargeable to no man: for that which was lacking to me the brethren which came from Macedonia supplied: and in all things I have kept myself from being burdensome unto you, and so will I keep myself.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] As the truth of Christ is in me, no man shall stop me of this boasting in the regions of Achaia.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Wherefore? because I love you not? God knoweth.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.

Paul didn't take support from fledgling churches he was setting up, avoiding any burden on them. Other matured churches sent him out as a missionary is sent out these days, funded, prepared. Once one of his churches became well extablished, then they picked up the tab to sent ministers to do like Paul.

As for the overseers of a local congregation that Paul appointed, those fall under the ordained means of their support that they may minister unhindered, not being a burden on people that are not an established congregation able to pool resources.

If you cherry pick through the following, then you remain enemy of Christ by taking one verse out of context to make it a sin for a preacher to rely on a congregation for support. You need to study it through.

1 Corinthians 9:3-14 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Mine answer to them that do examine me is this,
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Have we not power to eat and to drink?
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working?
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?
[SUP]9 [/SUP] For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
[SUP]12 [/SUP] If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

So what of Acts 20? When "interpreted", it must be in perfect harmony with those other scriptures, else it is your own opinion in spite of the word of God.

Acts 20:27-35 (KJV)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
[SUP]28 [/SUP] Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
[SUP]29 [/SUP] For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
[SUP]30 [/SUP] Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
[SUP]31 [/SUP] Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
[SUP]32 [/SUP] And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.
[SUP]33 [/SUP] I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel.
[SUP]34 [/SUP] Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me.
[SUP]35 [/SUP] I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.

Laboring how?Preach the gospel day and night, feed the flock. Jesus commanded Peter to feed the flock. Be the overseers you were appointed to be. Payl left Timothy to do that, and even the apostle John spent years overseeing Ephesus.

That's the kind of laboring Paul spoke of doing, not being a shepherd in the fields, coming down once a year to preach while the shearers worked. Nowere is the idea of an apostle or preacher advised to run a camel sales lot or a bakery, giving the gospel part time attention. Ministering the gospel is supposed to be a full time job. That's why the Lord ordained that the overseers of a local church should receive their living of the gospel they preach and teach, building up the flock. Meanwhile, those with the sheep flocks, the camel sales lots, the bakeries, etc. who are not called into a particular ministry are the ones whose spiritual gift may well be giving.

Out of love and appreciation my church makes sure our miisters lack nothing. Our pastor is an area leader that's organizing other pastors to do great things in this area. We want that family to be a shining example of being blessed. Those that bless in any way God is on record as ordaining as his will and pleasure, we do. I will not shake his hand without leaving a $100 bill in his palm, having already tithed and given an offering and often give into another special offering any Sunday. When we find them in a restaurant I tell the waitress to bring their bill to me, and usually will have visitors to our church at our table.

I am dismayed over the horrible condemnations on this website, castigating things that God made holy and good.
To your certain delight I spend more and more time chatting elsewhere, where a post like this is nver necessary.

These free-for-alls are not healthy for babes in Christ. There ought to be a warning icon at the head of any thead that will discourage believers, such as a skull and crossbone icon.

 

[phil36]

Hi YET,

You sound very bitter towards Christs body..the church.

 

[Yet]

Hi YET,

You sound very bitter towards Christs body..the church.

That is pretty much the accusation when teaching on these things using scripture. But you are judging me falsely. Not suppose to do that. When Jesus rebuked the religious leaders they accused of having a devil. It's always the price a teacher of the word has to pay. But I'm not mad at ya. Be free. Be blessed. That's all I want for the body of Christ.

 

[Yet]

I see you are still a hater of preachers who take financial and other kinds of support from a congregation. You have totally missed the point of 1 Cor 9, 2 Cor 11, which support the proper take on Acts 20.
2 Corinthians 11:7-12 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Have I committed an offence in abasing myself that ye might be exalted, because I have preached to you the gospel of God freely?
[SUP]8 [/SUP] I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] And when I was present with you, and wanted, I was chargeable to no man: for that which was lacking to me the brethren which came from Macedonia supplied: and in all things I have kept myself from being burdensome unto you, and so will I keep myself.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] As the truth of Christ is in me, no man shall stop me of this boasting in the regions of Achaia.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Wherefore? because I love you not? God knoweth.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.

Paul didn't take support from fledgling churches he was setting up, avoiding any burden on them. Other matured churches sent him out as a missionary is sent out these days, funded, prepared. Once one of his churches became well extablished, then they picked up the tab to sent ministers to do like Paul.

As for the overseers of a local congregation that Paul appointed, those fall under the ordained means of their support that they may minister unhindered, not being a burden on people that are not an established congregation able to pool resources.

If you cherry pick through the following, then you remain enemy of Christ by taking one verse out of context to make it a sin for a preacher to rely on a congregation for support. You need to study it through.

1 Corinthians 9:3-14 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Mine answer to them that do examine me is this,
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Have we not power to eat and to drink?
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working?
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?
[SUP]9 [/SUP] For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
[SUP]12 [/SUP] If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

So what of Acts 20? When "interpreted", it must be in perfect harmony with those other scriptures, else it is your own opinion in spite of the word of God.

Acts 20:27-35 (KJV)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
[SUP]28 [/SUP] Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
[SUP]29 [/SUP] For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
[SUP]30 [/SUP] Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
[SUP]31 [/SUP] Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
[SUP]32 [/SUP] And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.
[SUP]33 [/SUP] I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel.
[SUP]34 [/SUP] Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me.
[SUP]35 [/SUP] I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.

Laboring how?Preach the gospel day and night, feed the flock. Jesus commanded Peter to feed the flock. Be the overseers you were appointed to be. Payl left Timothy to do that, and even the apostle John spent years overseeing Ephesus.

That's the kind of laboring Paul spoke of doing, not being a shepherd in the fields, coming down once a year to preach while the shearers worked. Nowere is the idea of an apostle or preacher advised to run a camel sales lot or a bakery, giving the gospel part time attention. Ministering the gospel is supposed to be a full time job. That's why the Lord ordained that the overseers of a local church should receive their living of the gospel they preach and teach, building up the flock. Meanwhile, those with the sheep flocks, the camel sales lots, the bakeries, etc. who are not called into a particular ministry are the ones whose spiritual gift may well be giving.

Out of love and appreciation my church makes sure our miisters lack nothing. Our pastor is an area leader that's organizing other pastors to do great things in this area. We want that family to be a shining example of being blessed. Those that bless in any way God is on record as ordaining as his will and pleasure, we do. I will not shake his hand without leaving a $100 bill in his palm, having already tithed and given an offering and often give into another special offering any Sunday. When we find them in a restaurant I tell the waitress to bring their bill to me, and usually will have visitors to our church at our table.

I am dismayed over the horrible condemnations on this website, castigating things that God made holy and good.
To your certain delight I spend more and more time chatting elsewhere, where a post like this is nver necessary.

These free-for-alls are not healthy for babes in Christ. There ought to be a warning icon at the head of any thead that will discourage believers, such as a skull and crossbone icon.

Where did I say I hate preachers? You are the one cherry picking the verses that establish support for the traveling preachers as the apostles. Acts 20 .local body elders told to work. I've asked that one of you how many times now?

Lets make this real simple. R u telling me that if I quit my job and rent a building, put the forbidden title in front of my name, that I can threaten everyone else about 'robbing' God in order to get them all to cough up ten percent of their gross to me?

And you just twisted the verses in Acts 20 for your own gain. Paul talked about him working and even supporting them that were with him and said 'and so laboring you ought to support the weak'. Twist it all day long like the scripture said you would do 'making merchandise of the folks'.
Was Paul an apostle? Yes he was. Or was he an elder established in a local body till he died. No he was not.
You are trying to equate the itenerent preacher with the pastors/elders in a local body.

Did you ever answer me on how ten people in a group of 20 can afford to pay double salaries to the ten good teachers?

With you its all about not working a job, instead make poor grandma pay you her tithes on her SS check. You must be a self exalted pastor feeding on mutton. It would be hard to give that up wouldn't it? Hireling.

 

[Yet]

Hi YET,

You sound very bitter towards Christs body..the church.

One more thing. Not bitter as you accuse. Just plain ole mad about all the apostasy in the organized church. Your NT talks about it all day long. You can't see it howevever.

You have no problem with the poor being extorted out of their finances. No problem at all. Well it really bothers me and that makes you the good Christian and me the antichrist.....right.

He he that oppresses the poor reproaches his Maker. Proverbs 14:31
A scorner loves not one who reproves him(with the word) Proverbs 15:12
Whoever stops his ears at the cry of the poor, he also shall cry but no one will hear. Proverbs 21:13
He that oppresses the poor to increase his riches(pastor Onthetake) and he that gives to the rich(pastor) shall come to want.Proverbs 22:16
Rob not the poor because he is poor. Neither oppress the afflicted. Proberbs 22:22
The getting of money by a lying tongue(tithes) is a vanity tossed to and fro of them that seek death. The robbery by the wicked(shepherds) will destroy them. Because of hey REFUSE to do justice. Proverbs 21:6-7
The man that wanders out of the way of understanding will remain in the CONGREGATION of the DEAD. Proverbs 21:16

Try this one on for size: The righteous considers the cause of the poor (sitting in the pew forced to cough up ten percent of his gross if he wants to remain welcome in the den) BUT....THE WICKED REFUSES TO EVEN GIVE IT A THOUGHT. Proverbs 29:7

Does it bother you guys at all that the poor are struggling with the demanded Den dues? I didn't think so. Yea I'm judging now. From all the wresting of the word of God going on by all you churchians what would you have me take from your words?

 

[hornetguy]

I think we are falling into the pattern of lumping all "paid" preachers into the same category.... this is grossly unfair to the preachers that are HIRED by a church's spiritual leaders (elders) to do the job of full time preaching. They are doing the job they were called (and trained, usually) to do. They have no say in how the church exhorts its members to give. Comparing them to the guy in Yet's scenario is unfair, and for the most part, untrue.
I have noticed that the latter type are usually in the Pentecostal or non-denominational churches. I'm always suspicious of a church that was started by, and run by, a "preacher".
The church is the body of believers, and should be run by them, through the spiritual leaders (appointed elders).

 

[phil36]

That is pretty much the accusation when teaching on these things using scripture. But you are judging me falsely. Not suppose to do that. When Jesus rebuked the religious leaders they accused of having a devil. It's always the price a teacher of the word has to pay. But I'm not mad at ya. Be free. Be blessed. That's all I want for the body of Christ.

Hi Yet,

I am not accusing you, I said you 'sound' as if you are bitter towards the body. You say a lot of not so good things about the church (Christs body).

 

[StandingFirmInChrist]

I see you are still a hater of preachers who take financial and other kinds of support from a congregation. You have totally missed the point of 1 Cor 9, 2 Cor 11, which support the proper take on Acts 20.
2 Corinthians 11:7-12 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Have I committed an offence in abasing myself that ye might be exalted, because I have preached to you the gospel of God freely?
[SUP]8 [/SUP] I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] And when I was present with you, and wanted, I was chargeable to no man: for that which was lacking to me the brethren which came from Macedonia supplied: and in all things I have kept myself from being burdensome unto you, and so will I keep myself.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] As the truth of Christ is in me, no man shall stop me of this boasting in the regions of Achaia.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Wherefore? because I love you not? God knoweth.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.

Paul didn't take support from fledgling churches he was setting up, avoiding any burden on them. Other matured churches sent him out as a missionary is sent out these days, funded, prepared. Once one of his churches became well extablished, then they picked up the tab to sent ministers to do like Paul.

As for the overseers of a local congregation that Paul appointed, those fall under the ordained means of their support that they may minister unhindered, not being a burden on people that are not an established congregation able to pool resources.

If you cherry pick through the following, then you remain enemy of Christ by taking one verse out of context to make it a sin for a preacher to rely on a congregation for support. You need to study it through.

1 Corinthians 9:3-14 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Mine answer to them that do examine me is this,
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Have we not power to eat and to drink?
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working?
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?
[SUP]9 [/SUP] For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
[SUP]12 [/SUP] If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

So what of Acts 20? When "interpreted", it must be in perfect harmony with those other scriptures, else it is your own opinion in spite of the word of God.

Acts 20:27-35 (KJV)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
[SUP]28 [/SUP] Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
[SUP]29 [/SUP] For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
[SUP]30 [/SUP] Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
[SUP]31 [/SUP] Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
[SUP]32 [/SUP] And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.
[SUP]33 [/SUP] I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel.
[SUP]34 [/SUP] Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me.
[SUP]35 [/SUP] I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.

Laboring how?Preach the gospel day and night, feed the flock. Jesus commanded Peter to feed the flock. Be the overseers you were appointed to be. Payl left Timothy to do that, and even the apostle John spent years overseeing Ephesus.

That's the kind of laboring Paul spoke of doing, not being a shepherd in the fields, coming down once a year to preach while the shearers worked. Nowere is the idea of an apostle or preacher advised to run a camel sales lot or a bakery, giving the gospel part time attention. Ministering the gospel is supposed to be a full time job. That's why the Lord ordained that the overseers of a local church should receive their living of the gospel they preach and teach, building up the flock. Meanwhile, those with the sheep flocks, the camel sales lots, the bakeries, etc. who are not called into a particular ministry are the ones whose spiritual gift may well be giving.

Out of love and appreciation my church makes sure our miisters lack nothing. Our pastor is an area leader that's organizing other pastors to do great things in this area. We want that family to be a shining example of being blessed. Those that bless in any way God is on record as ordaining as his will and pleasure, we do. I will not shake his hand without leaving a $100 bill in his palm, having already tithed and given an offering and often give into another special offering any Sunday. When we find them in a restaurant I tell the waitress to bring their bill to me, and usually will have visitors to our church at our table.

I am dismayed over the horrible condemnations on this website, castigating things that God made holy and good.
To your certain delight I spend more and more time chatting elsewhere, where a post like this is nver necessary.

These free-for-alls are not healthy for babes in Christ. There ought to be a warning icon at the head of any thead that will discourage believers, such as a skull and crossbone icon.

Neither passage you provided speak of paying a pastor for preaching. In both passages, the Apostle Paul was speaking of his own support and/or the support of traveling ministers such as himself. They had nothing to do with the church except the church providing the support that was needed in the Apostle's ministry.


In Acts 20, Paul was not speaking of studying and preaching the Word of God when he said, "so labouring ye ought to support the weak." Nor was he speaking of a necessity of putting the pastor on a payroll salary. He was telling pastors to work a secular job apart from the ministry.

Just as God never made monetary tithe holy, He also never made a salaried pastor holy.

What is healthy for a babe in Christ is to teach them the truth as it is written in God's Holy Word. Teaching them that God requires pastors to be salaried; teaching them that God requires them to give ten percent of their money to the religious institution dba a church; that is contrary to what the Word of God teaches and is therefore, unhealthy for them.

if the leader is teaching contrary to the Bible, and the congregation is believing the leader's deception, they all are not walking in the truth. The blind following the blind, heading for a great pit.

If those you deem to be "babes in Christ" were presented and believed on a christ that requires monetary tithes from them, and requires them to be a part in paying their local Pastor a salary, then they are not "babes in Christ" after all. One cannot be "in Christ" by accepting and trusting in a false christ.

 

[phil36]

One more thing. Not bitter as you accuse. Just plain ole mad about all the apostasy in the organized church. Your NT talks about it all day long. You can't see it howevever.

You have no problem with the poor being extorted out of their finances. No problem at all. Well it really bothers me and that makes you the good Christian and me the antichrist.....right.

He he that oppresses the poor reproaches his Maker. Proverbs 14:31
A scorner loves not one who reproves him(with the word) Proverbs 15:12
Whoever stops his ears at the cry of the poor, he also shall cry but no one will hear. Proverbs 21:13
He that oppresses the poor to increase his riches(pastor Onthetake) and he that gives to the rich(pastor) shall come to want.Proverbs 22:16
Rob not the poor because he is poor. Neither oppress the afflicted. Proberbs 22:22
The getting of money by a lying tongue(tithes) is a vanity tossed to and fro of them that seek death. The robbery by the wicked(shepherds) will destroy them. Because of hey REFUSE to do justice. Proverbs 21:6-7
The man that wanders out of the way of understanding will remain in the CONGREGATION of the DEAD. Proverbs 21:16

Try this one on for size: The righteous considers the cause of the poor (sitting in the pew forced to cough up ten percent of his gross if he wants to remain welcome in the den) BUT....THE WICKED REFUSES TO EVEN GIVE IT A THOUGHT. Proverbs 29:7

Does it bother you guys at all that the poor are struggling with the demanded Den dues? I didn't think so. Yea I'm judging now. From all the wresting of the word of God going on by all you churchians what would you have me take from your words?

Hi Yet,

I think you have a very 'angry' and 'bitter' view of Christs body, the church.

The church is both visible and invisible, we see the visible but only God can see and know the invisible (the saved). Unfortunatly you are acting as if you know and see the invisible (big mistake, only God can see that). Yes, the visible can include injustices and false teaching. But, on the whole the majority of churches are faithful, not perfect, but faithful.

I am afraid it is you who seems to take the high road, you are one guy sitting on a couch infront of a computer screen telling the billions around the world that they follow false teachings, they have fallen away, neglect the poor and on and on and on.

It seems my friend that maybe you need to resolve the bitter anger issues you have with Christs body imperfect as they maybe, yet loved indeed by God.

 

[fredoheaven]

I see you are still a hater of preachers who take financial and other kinds of support from a congregation. You have totally missed the point of 1 Cor 9, 2 Cor 11, which support the proper take on Acts 20.
2 Corinthians 11:7-12 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Have I committed an offence in abasing myself that ye might be exalted, because I have preached to you the gospel of God freely?
[SUP]8 [/SUP] I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] And when I was present with you, and wanted, I was chargeable to no man: for that which was lacking to me the brethren which came from Macedonia supplied: and in all things I have kept myself from being burdensome unto you, and so will I keep myself.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] As the truth of Christ is in me, no man shall stop me of this boasting in the regions of Achaia.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Wherefore? because I love you not? God knoweth.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.

Paul didn't take support from fledgling churches he was setting up, avoiding any burden on them. Other matured churches sent him out as a missionary is sent out these days, funded, prepared. Once one of his churches became well extablished, then they picked up the tab to sent ministers to do like Paul.

As for the overseers of a local congregation that Paul appointed, those fall under the ordained means of their support that they may minister unhindered, not being a burden on people that are not an established congregation able to pool resources.

If you cherry pick through the following, then you remain enemy of Christ by taking one verse out of context to make it a sin for a preacher to rely on a congregation for support. You need to study it through.

1 Corinthians 9:3-14 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Mine answer to them that do examine me is this,
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Have we not power to eat and to drink?
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working?
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?
[SUP]9 [/SUP] For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
[SUP]12 [/SUP] If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

So what of Acts 20? When "interpreted", it must be in perfect harmony with those other scriptures, else it is your own opinion in spite of the word of God.

Acts 20:27-35 (KJV)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
[SUP]28 [/SUP] Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
[SUP]29 [/SUP] For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
[SUP]30 [/SUP] Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
[SUP]31 [/SUP] Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
[SUP]32 [/SUP] And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.
[SUP]33 [/SUP] I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel.
[SUP]34 [/SUP] Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me.
[SUP]35 [/SUP] I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.

Laboring how?Preach the gospel day and night, feed the flock. Jesus commanded Peter to feed the flock. Be the overseers you were appointed to be. Payl left Timothy to do that, and even the apostle John spent years overseeing Ephesus.

That's the kind of laboring Paul spoke of doing, not being a shepherd in the fields, coming down once a year to preach while the shearers worked. Nowere is the idea of an apostle or preacher advised to run a camel sales lot or a bakery, giving the gospel part time attention. Ministering the gospel is supposed to be a full time job. That's why the Lord ordained that the overseers of a local church should receive their living of the gospel they preach and teach, building up the flock. Meanwhile, those with the sheep flocks, the camel sales lots, the bakeries, etc. who are not called into a particular ministry are the ones whose spiritual gift may well be giving.

Out of love and appreciation my church makes sure our miisters lack nothing. Our pastor is an area leader that's organizing other pastors to do great things in this area. We want that family to be a shining example of being blessed. Those that bless in any way God is on record as ordaining as his will and pleasure, we do. I will not shake his hand without leaving a $100 bill in his palm, having already tithed and given an offering and often give into another special offering any Sunday. When we find them in a restaurant I tell the waitress to bring their bill to me, and usually will have visitors to our church at our table.

I am dismayed over the horrible condemnations on this website, castigating things that God made holy and good.
To your certain delight I spend more and more time chatting elsewhere, where a post like this is nver necessary.

These free-for-alls are not healthy for babes in Christ. There ought to be a warning icon at the head of any thead that will discourage believers, such as a skull and crossbone icon.

Very inspiring! Indeed a blessing! Continue doing of it brother. God bless you...

 

[hornetguy]

9 Am I not as free as anyone else? Am I not an apostle? Haven’t I seen Jesus our Lord with my own eyes? Isn’t it because of my work that you belong to the Lord? [SUP]2 [/SUP]Even if others think I am not an apostle, I certainly am to you. You yourselves are proof that I am the Lord’s apostle.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]This is my answer to those who question my authority.[SUP][a][/SUP] [SUP]4 [/SUP]Don’t we have the right to live in your homes and share your meals? [SUP]5 [/SUP]Don’t we have the right to bring a believing wife[SUP][b][/SUP] with us as the other apostles and the Lord’s brothers do, and as Peter[SUP][c][/SUP] does? [SUP]6 [/SUP]Or is it only Barnabas and I who have to work to support ourselves?
[SUP]7 [/SUP]What soldier has to pay his own expenses? What farmer plants a vineyard and doesn’t have the right to eat some of its fruit? What shepherd cares for a flock of sheep and isn’t allowed to drink some of the milk? [SUP]8 [/SUP]Am I expressing merely a human opinion, or does the law say the same thing? [SUP]9 [/SUP]For the law of Moses says, “You must not muzzle an ox to keep it from eating as it treads out the grain.”[SUP][d][/SUP] Was God thinking only about oxen when he said this? [SUP]10 [/SUP]Wasn’t he actually speaking to us? Yes, it was written for us, so that the one who plows and the one who threshes the grain might both expect a share of the harvest.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Since we have planted spiritual seed among you, aren’t we entitled to a harvest of physical food and drink? [SUP]12 [/SUP]If you support others who preach to you, shouldn’t we have an even greater right to be supported? But we have never used this right. We would rather put up with anything than be an obstacle to the Good News about Christ.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Don’t you realize that those who work in the temple get their meals from the offerings brought to the temple? And those who serve at the altar get a share of the sacrificial offerings. [SUP]14 [/SUP]In the same way, the Lord ordered that those who preach the Good News should be supported by those who benefit from it.

Here it is in a language we all can understand.... without a bunch of shewing and shunning...
Paul is using servers in the temple (not itinerant, traveling preachers) to illustrate receiving payment for serving, then he says "in the same way..." those that preach the good news should receive payment..
While I don't know if this would establish a precedent for HAVING to hire a preacher, it certainly seems to indicate that it is not wrong.

 

[StandingFirmInChrist]

Here it is in a language we all can understand.... without a bunch of shewing and shunning...
Paul is using servers in the temple (not itinerant, traveling preachers) to illustrate receiving payment for serving, then he says "in the same way..." those that preach the good news should receive payment..
While I don't know if this would establish a precedent for HAVING to hire a preacher, it certainly seems to indicate that it is not wrong.

Now do a search for every instance where the preaching of the Gospel is mentioned in the Bible. Every verse that speaks of preaching the Gospel reveals the ones preaching are doing so while traveling about.

My conclusion? 1 Corinthians 9 does not support the thought that stationary pastors should be salaried. It is speaking of support for those traveling ministers of the Gospel.

by the way, servers in the Temple were not preachers. Prophets preached... and they did so while traveling. LoL

 

[hornetguy]

Now do a search for every instance where the preaching of the Gospel is mentioned in the Bible. Every verse that speaks of preaching the Gospel reveals the ones preaching are doing so while traveling about.

My conclusion? 1 Corinthians 9 does not support the thought that stationary pastors should be salaried. It is speaking of support for those traveling ministers of the Gospel.

by the way, servers in the Temple were not preachers. Prophets preached... and they did so while traveling. LoL

I agree that the topic Paul was discussing was whether he and Barnabas "deserved" to be paid, or supported.... I just found it interesting that he used the example of temple workers receiving pay, and then saying that just like that, "those who preach the Good News should be supported by those who benefit from it." without really saying "hey, and this only pertains to traveling preachers"
I hope this doesn't sound like I'm arguing semantics, but it seems to at least open the conversation of "is it permitted to hire a preacher"..... I think that topic is much the same as other issues that have been cussed and discussed in the Christian fellowship. Instrumental music, songbooks, church buildings, Sunday schools, kitchens in church buildings, etc....
None of those things were mentioned in the scripture, but they were not condemned, either... so it seems to be a matter of conscience. At any time any of those things results in a hindrance to worship and evangelism in a particular church body, then prayerful changes should be made.