I agree: satan delights in sending wolves, hirelings, false teachers, false prophets for profit, false apostles, and apostate heretics to twist the word with false doctrine and the traditions of men in order to line their pockets with filthy lucre, watering down the influence of God's children who love the truth of His word and commandments, not principles, for life.
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Like 21:1-4 has absolutely nothing to do with tithing. God said His holy tithe was agricultural, not monetary.
Jesus would not have told them that tithes were done away with at that time in Biblical history. Why not? Because the Mosaic Law was still in effect. The Law, given to the children of Israel by God, required them to tithe.
But, notice what they were said to have been tithing. It was not money. Rather, it was agricultural produce,... that which the Law required.
There is not a single command or instruction in the entire Bible for anyone to tithe their monetary income to the House of God. God did command tithes, agricultural tithes, of the children of Israel. However, He never commanded us, the New Covenant Church, to tithe.
Jesus would not have told them that tithes were done away with at that time in Biblical history. Why not? Because the Mosaic Law was still in effect. The Law, given to the children of Israel by God, required them to tithe.
But, notice what they were said to have been tithing. It was not money. Rather, it was agricultural produce,... that which the Law required.
There is not a single command or instruction in the entire Bible for anyone to tithe their monetary income to the House of God. God did command tithes, agricultural tithes, of the children of Israel. However, He never commanded us, the New Covenant Church, to tithe.
I hesitate to insert the following lest another debate revive here, but apparently there remains confusion about what happened to the Law. Not all things of the Law are gone, as not all things of the plan of God have been fulfilled. We Christians have not yet come in sight of the Finish Line.
Matthew 5:17-20 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
All Christians are expected to surpass whatever the scribes and Pharisees saw in the Law as righteousness. There is in that passage a consequence of teaching wrong ideas about the Law. Cherry picking some do's and don'ts will not make the cut. We agree about the Law concerning murder, theft, and many other crimes, but detest the commandments concerning our money? It is because those detesting love their money, which kind of loving is the root of all evil.
Paul narrowed the exclusions of the law to declare the certain ordinances that were against us to be abolished on the cross. Those were chiefly curses of the Law. The whole of the holy Law of God was not at enmity against Christians, who by grace, faith in Christ, exceed the righteousness of the Law.
Ephesians 2:14-18 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
[SUP]16 [/SUP] And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
[SUP]17 [/SUP] And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Not all the prohibitions, even, were excluded for us. In the first Jerusalem council were find some example of the holiness of God in his Law to be continually honored. Gentiles with no seed in Abraham had and still don't need identity through flesh circumcision.
Acts 15:28-29 (KJV)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
[SUP]29 [/SUP] That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
You will not find in scripture a repeal of condemnation of crimes like murder, and you won't find an end to tithing or to offerings, or of being gracious to the poor, the widows, the orphans. None of such commandments were against any society.
Above the Law, though, remains the fact there have been two priesthoods, that of the Law being dead, the original still in effect, never being absent from among men. That eternal priesthood demands the righteousness of the Law be retained. The tithe was not against the people, but for them so they could have priests and a place God appointed to meet with him.
It's obvious why someone not willing to meet with the Lord with other worshipers would be annoyed over the tithe or real offerings the Lord will accept.
Yet indicated we should give all our money to the government. Then why does Yet retain enough to pay his internet bill?
Matthew 5:17-20 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
All Christians are expected to surpass whatever the scribes and Pharisees saw in the Law as righteousness. There is in that passage a consequence of teaching wrong ideas about the Law. Cherry picking some do's and don'ts will not make the cut. We agree about the Law concerning murder, theft, and many other crimes, but detest the commandments concerning our money? It is because those detesting love their money, which kind of loving is the root of all evil.
Paul narrowed the exclusions of the law to declare the certain ordinances that were against us to be abolished on the cross. Those were chiefly curses of the Law. The whole of the holy Law of God was not at enmity against Christians, who by grace, faith in Christ, exceed the righteousness of the Law.
Ephesians 2:14-18 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
[SUP]16 [/SUP] And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
[SUP]17 [/SUP] And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Not all the prohibitions, even, were excluded for us. In the first Jerusalem council were find some example of the holiness of God in his Law to be continually honored. Gentiles with no seed in Abraham had and still don't need identity through flesh circumcision.
Acts 15:28-29 (KJV)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
[SUP]29 [/SUP] That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
You will not find in scripture a repeal of condemnation of crimes like murder, and you won't find an end to tithing or to offerings, or of being gracious to the poor, the widows, the orphans. None of such commandments were against any society.
Above the Law, though, remains the fact there have been two priesthoods, that of the Law being dead, the original still in effect, never being absent from among men. That eternal priesthood demands the righteousness of the Law be retained. The tithe was not against the people, but for them so they could have priests and a place God appointed to meet with him.
It's obvious why someone not willing to meet with the Lord with other worshipers would be annoyed over the tithe or real offerings the Lord will accept.
Yet indicated we should give all our money to the government. Then why does Yet retain enough to pay his internet bill?
The RCC doesn't have a patent on the word "clergy". Clergy is defined commonly as a group of people ordained to perform religious duties such as ordinances and teaching doctrines. In the Church that can directly equal "churchmen", eccleisastics, men of God, women of God, priests, the pastors, the "preachers". Our newspapers typically label our county Ministerial Council as the "clergy" of our county, which meets once a month to identify common goals, finding ways to ease the homeless, coordinate projects to bless the community. We consist of the pastoral group of most Christian denominations, including Protestants, Catholics, Pentecostals, Baptists, Non-denominational, etc. I am non-denominational, of an independent Christian church.
1 Peter 2:4-5 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
The English uses "priesthood" from the transliterated Greek [FONT="]hierateuma, only used to denote a fraternity of priests. So if you are a true disciple you are one of many priests. Our High Priest is Jesus, of the tribe of Judah, not Levi, the official priestly tribe of the old covenant. [/FONT]
1 Peter 2:4-5 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
The English uses "priesthood" from the transliterated Greek [FONT="]hierateuma, only used to denote a fraternity of priests. So if you are a true disciple you are one of many priests. Our High Priest is Jesus, of the tribe of Judah, not Levi, the official priestly tribe of the old covenant. [/FONT]
The Mosaic Law is still in effect, but with the ordinances against us annulled. Many ordinances were and remain precious lessons towards the righteousness of Christ, and are holy, and always will be holy. However, in the Sermon on the Mount Jesus taught that the holy commandments are to be followed in the spirit of the law, not just the letter. The commandment against adultery has a spiritual aspect above the physical minimum to be obeyed. Even just looking at a woman you are not married to, with lust, is equal to a physical act of adultery. At a minimum we must obey the moral Law, but the Lord is looking for an exceeding of it.
The spirit of tithing and offerings is still in force, we by commandment of the ordaining by Jesus to support ministers "even as" those of the old covenant were totally supported by the people blessed by them. Offerings too are taught as an "in the spirit" act, though commanded in the law.
Avoiding that principle that God ordained is evidence of selfishness and rebellion. None of it has been repealed, but is all now according to examples in Genesis and the New Testament. It must be of our selves and our substance, whatever God has given us, asking all of us, part of what we have.
I still work, though could totally retire. I tried that and was very disappointed. I like the ability to work to have to give to them that have not. In the spirit of the matter we are always way above tithes, happy to be a blessing as much as possible.
Again, you are camped out on the middle priesthood, limiting tithes to agri products. It was not so with Abram, nor is it limited to that in the New Covenant. Each church has the authority to collect tithes and offerings as a means of total support of ministers who are called to serve the congregation. I realize you despise giving preachers money, but that's your opinion, against the word of God. It is heretical.
The spirit of tithing and offerings is still in force, we by commandment of the ordaining by Jesus to support ministers "even as" those of the old covenant were totally supported by the people blessed by them. Offerings too are taught as an "in the spirit" act, though commanded in the law.
Avoiding that principle that God ordained is evidence of selfishness and rebellion. None of it has been repealed, but is all now according to examples in Genesis and the New Testament. It must be of our selves and our substance, whatever God has given us, asking all of us, part of what we have.
I still work, though could totally retire. I tried that and was very disappointed. I like the ability to work to have to give to them that have not. In the spirit of the matter we are always way above tithes, happy to be a blessing as much as possible.
Again, you are camped out on the middle priesthood, limiting tithes to agri products. It was not so with Abram, nor is it limited to that in the New Covenant. Each church has the authority to collect tithes and offerings as a means of total support of ministers who are called to serve the congregation. I realize you despise giving preachers money, but that's your opinion, against the word of God. It is heretical.
Jesus was not saying to pay monetary tithes when He said to "Render unto God the things that are God's."
The Law was still in effect when Christ made that statement. The Law states that God's holy tithe is agricultural, not monetary. Had Jesus told the pharisees to tithe money, He would have been telling them to sin.
Your Jesus may require monetary tithes. He may want you to follow after that invention of man that is totally foreign to God's Word.
However, the Jesus I serve does not.
The Law was still in effect when Christ made that statement. The Law states that God's holy tithe is agricultural, not monetary. Had Jesus told the pharisees to tithe money, He would have been telling them to sin.
Your Jesus may require monetary tithes. He may want you to follow after that invention of man that is totally foreign to God's Word.
However, the Jesus I serve does not.
Swordsman you judge us falsely. You say we are money mad. Thats not true. The false shepherds are money mad. Mad about our money. In the book of Acts, why were the elders commanded to work jobs if they were to pull tithes?
I Dont think you answered this: a poor man sweats bullets to tithe. A rich man tithes and feels no pain. Is that what your god calls fair?
I Dont think you answered this: a poor man sweats bullets to tithe. A rich man tithes and feels no pain. Is that what your god calls fair?
You have given a reasonable definition of both 'clergy' and 'priesthood'. What you have not done is provided scriptural justification for the whole of your statement, "Jesus doesn't need out (sic) money. His clergy does. They are priests under him...".
It looks very much like you are asserting that the clergy are priests over the non-clergy believers, and are therefore "entitled" in some way to received tithes from other believers. Please justify this from scripture, and while you're at it, please give your understanding of 'Nicolaitans'.
Also, in post 523, you state the following: "That eternal priesthood demands the righteousness of the Law be retained. The tithe was not against the people, but for them so they could have priests and a place God appointed to meet with him."
Please give scriptural support for each sentence in terms of the "eternal priesthood"; especially, "demands the righteousness of the Law be retained," and, "so they could have priests and a place God appointed."
I see no such things for the eternal priesthood of believers. On the contrary, "Christ is the end of the Law that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes." (Romans 10:4)
It looks very much like you are asserting that the clergy are priests over the non-clergy believers, and are therefore "entitled" in some way to received tithes from other believers. Please justify this from scripture, and while you're at it, please give your understanding of 'Nicolaitans'.
Also, in post 523, you state the following: "That eternal priesthood demands the righteousness of the Law be retained. The tithe was not against the people, but for them so they could have priests and a place God appointed to meet with him."
Please give scriptural support for each sentence in terms of the "eternal priesthood"; especially, "demands the righteousness of the Law be retained," and, "so they could have priests and a place God appointed."
I see no such things for the eternal priesthood of believers. On the contrary, "Christ is the end of the Law that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes." (Romans 10:4)
Lets define clergy according to the word of God. There i go again, using that pesky word of God. Its does seem to get in the way, doesn't it?
1Peter 5:3 ....no lording it over His heritage allowed. Heritage: cleros: lots. Clergy is derived from this greek word cleros.
Its the folks...all of us.....we are all the clergy if you will.
Mans definition of a hierarchy called the clerical, is unfounded in the NT. Therefore it needs to be jettisoned. See: Matt.20 'it shall not be so among you'. Go ahead and kick me though Jesus is the One Who said it! Please kick me, please, please, please. I've got a crown in glory waiting. Smile.
1Peter 5:3 ....no lording it over His heritage allowed. Heritage: cleros: lots. Clergy is derived from this greek word cleros.
Its the folks...all of us.....we are all the clergy if you will.
Mans definition of a hierarchy called the clerical, is unfounded in the NT. Therefore it needs to be jettisoned. See: Matt.20 'it shall not be so among you'. Go ahead and kick me though Jesus is the One Who said it! Please kick me, please, please, please. I've got a crown in glory waiting. Smile.
I've been waiting for opinions/answers on my T/F questions from more people for days. So far, only two people who favor grace giving have opined. The question was opened to everyone who has been participating in this thread.
1. T/F - All tithes in O.T. times were brought to the storehouse.
2. T/F - Tithes were always delivered to the storehouse by the tither.
3. T/F - Tithes and firstfruits and offerings are all the same thing; the words are synonymous.
4. T/F - In O.T. times, Israelites were allowed to eat part of their tithe.
5. T/F - In O.T. times, one tithe was due on agriculture and livestock.
6. T/F - In O.T. times, the first of every 10 animals was part of a tithe. It was to be the finest and best of the flock.
7. T/F - In O.T. times, tithing was done on agriculture every year.
1. T/F - All tithes in O.T. times were brought to the storehouse.
2. T/F - Tithes were always delivered to the storehouse by the tither.
3. T/F - Tithes and firstfruits and offerings are all the same thing; the words are synonymous.
4. T/F - In O.T. times, Israelites were allowed to eat part of their tithe.
5. T/F - In O.T. times, one tithe was due on agriculture and livestock.
6. T/F - In O.T. times, the first of every 10 animals was part of a tithe. It was to be the finest and best of the flock.
7. T/F - In O.T. times, tithing was done on agriculture every year.
R
The law was fulfilled in Christ Himself! Don't you realize that tithes were part of the law of Moses? That all these things pointed to Jesus Himself and are not intended to be read as "the letter" but of the spirit which gives life!(2 Cor 3:6) You have not once proven that the Mosaic tithe is for today nor have you proven your supposed assertion that tithe is money! The one thing that does not change from the OT to the NT is the character of God(who He is), so God still cares for the poor just like He did in the OT, and while tithes in the OT were obligatory and help gave food to the poor(ie: Levites), we are commanded to freely give and help others in the NT!
"And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me." Luke 24:44
"And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me." Luke 24:44
Come on now, that's only answering 1.67 of the 7 questions...
1. T/F - All tithes in O.T. times were brought to the storehouse.
2. T/F - Tithes were always delivered to the storehouse by the tither.
3. T/F - Tithes and firstfruits and offerings are all the same thing; the words are synonymous.
HeRoseFromTheDead: False...tithes and firstfruits are not the same. (Offerings not addressed)
4. T/F - In O.T. times, Israelites were allowed to eat part of their tithe.
5. T/F - In O.T. times, one tithe was due on agriculture and livestock.
6. T/F - In O.T. times, the first of every 10 animals was part of a tithe. It was to be the finest and best of the flock.
HeRoseFromTheDead: False. Tithed animals were not the first of every 10 animals, but every 10th animal, whether it was good or bad.
7. T/F - In O.T. times, tithing was done on agriculture every year.
1. T/F - All tithes in O.T. times were brought to the storehouse.
2. T/F - Tithes were always delivered to the storehouse by the tither.
3. T/F - Tithes and firstfruits and offerings are all the same thing; the words are synonymous.
HeRoseFromTheDead: False...tithes and firstfruits are not the same. (Offerings not addressed)
4. T/F - In O.T. times, Israelites were allowed to eat part of their tithe.
5. T/F - In O.T. times, one tithe was due on agriculture and livestock.
6. T/F - In O.T. times, the first of every 10 animals was part of a tithe. It was to be the finest and best of the flock.
HeRoseFromTheDead: False. Tithed animals were not the first of every 10 animals, but every 10th animal, whether it was good or bad.
7. T/F - In O.T. times, tithing was done on agriculture every year.