Tithe!

[Yet]

God may have given pastors to the Early Church.

However, I am not convinced that He gave the Church of today these pastors who teach the monetary tithe requirement lie.

yes He did give shepherds, plural but not the single top of the pyramid pastor we see today. 1Peter 5 and Acts 20 shows us that all elders are shepherds working in concert.

Yes the pastor that teaches falsehood loses his credibilty. Jesus calls the elder that requires a salary a hireling.

Whether they know it or not they come to steal, kill, and destroy. Look it up. Not talking about the devil. John 10:10

 

[Word_Swordsman]

Swordsman won't answer my question. If we the people are the priesthood, do we pay tithes to ourselves?

The Goodnews man wont answer my other question. Was Jesus under the old covenant or the new before He went to the cross.

The word of God is a pesky thing aint it? The traditions of men must be observed. God's word be hanged.

You guys have been pastorized and pulpited to death. Someone ask me why i dont 'go to church'. My answer: why seek the Living among the dead?

And the Sardis ecclesia had a name saying it was ALIVE, yet it was dead! Before you hurl your stone, i didnt say that. The Jesus,you think you know, did.

True believers are accounted as a royal priesthood. No true believer would forsake assembling together with other believers. You apparently judge all members of all churches, not willing to associate with any.
Hebrews 10:19-25 (KJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
[SUP]20 [/SUP] By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
[SUP]21 [/SUP] And having an high priest over the house of God;
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised
[SUP]24 [/SUP] And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
[SUP]25 [/SUP] Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

We Christians, however, understand what you can't while not in fellowship with our High Priest in Heaven, Jesus. I say that because apparently you are the only living soul, all others dead. That's the height of pride. I assemble to do what was commanded, encouraging others who also attend, each exhorting the other. That puts you in the congregation of the dead, those refusing to fellowship with other Christians. Perhaps it's better not to let an ancient church congregation that failed lead you to hell.

For the sake of Christians still reading, the pattern of the old covenant priesthood has not changed. God provided both priesthoods, each with a high priest. The difference is the first and last is eternal, while the second is mortal.

The High Priest of the old was the end receiver of tithes, shared with other priests of the temple. Before they got theirs, the Levites in general got the first tithe, then they tithed that up the chain. That way all who minister to the altar were and still are supported of the covenant in force. Therefore.....
1 Corinthians 9:13-14 (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

That's the pattern God still uses to support ministers. It ought to be obvious not all Christians are ministers 'waiting at the altar' for all others. As with the old priesthood, only a select group, the tribe of Levi, had rights to that function. God has given the church ministers such as teachers, preachers, evangelists, etc, who tend the altar for the great majority of us.

I realize Satan is active blinding minds toward understanding this relatively very simple spiritual truth. Those are the ones left behind. It makes no sense to keep rewording it to try forcing understanding.

In Hebrews 7 we learn Jesus in Heaven receives tithes, his ministers on earth being cared for first. So it is that the church ministers you shun are in fact cared for by church members like those old priests, ordained that way by Jesus. Our priesthood is world-wide, including gentile believers who have their own varied economies that God can certainly use.

 

[StandingFirmInChrist]

Question: How did Jesus receive tithes in Hebrews 7:8?
Answer: Through men that die, as recorded in Hebrews 7:8

Question: Who was the "men that die" in Hebrews 7:8 referring to?
Answer: They are the ones who had the commandment to take tithes in Hebrews 7:5, i.e.; the sons of Levi.

Question: What tithes did the sons of Levi have a commandment to take?
Answer: Tithes "according to the Law" (Hebrews 7:5)

Question: What were the tithes according to the Law?
Answer: The tithes that the Law required of the children of Israel, i.e.; agricultural crops and livestock (Leviticus 27:30-34)

Question: Besides the children of Israel, who else did God require to obey the command to tithe?
Answer: No other nation was required to tithe. (Psalms 147:19-20; Acts 15:24)

Question: What tithes was Jesus receiving in Hebrews 7:8?
Answer: The tithes according to the Law, i.e.; agricultural crops and livestock.

Question: Why was Jesus receiving tithes in Hebrews 7:8?
Answer: Because the Law was still in effect for those who had not come to faith in Jesus Christ. (1 Timothy 1:8-10)

Question: Are those who have placed their faith in Jesus Christ required to tithe?
Answer: No! Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness to everyone that believes in Him. (Romans 10:4)

 

[Word_Swordsman]

You are stuck in the middle priesthood. It died. The one that matters is the eternal, which received tithes before and after the middle priesthood. The mortal high priest of the second priesthood received the last of the tithes as prescribed by the law, while the eternal priesthood before and after, which was always all along in effect, receives tithes of all our substance, as Melchizedek did of Abram. Abram volunteered the tithe, not under commandment. The old covenant didn't require that, but accepted a token of their substance.

By the way, only people who die can tithe.

Required to "tithe"? No, but we are to support the church minister "even so", likewise, no less than. It's a commandment, ordained of the Lord (see last post). So it is the church can rightly promote tithes and offerings. Under the new covenant those who have no part in that, nor assemble together with believers, as has been well established throughout the history of the church, have no part in blessing of the tithe. The only promised blessing of "offerings" is essentially a repayment in kind, the little giver reaping little.

So all Christians have a choice. Take part and prosper by the hand of the Lord, or go dig it out on your own. Even the unbeliever can plant a seed and get a crop, but can't get God's ear when wanting it blessed. Neither can a stingy Christian benefit.

Christ is indeed the end of the law for those who believe in him. Believing is doing his commandments, which also issued from the apostles. It isn't enough to say you believe but don't obey, so the devils believe and tremble. Unbelievers remain under the law which is still in existence for the ungodly.

The truth is still hidden from unbelievers. It can't be fathomed with the natural mind.

 

[StandingFirmInChrist]

Obviously it is you, WS, that is "stuck in the middle priesthood," not I.

You see, you are the one insisting on the tithe being legit, not I.

There is not a single verse that supports a tithe for the New Covenant born again, blood bought, child of the living God,... not one.

You are holding onto the middle priesthood, with a twist. Instead of tithing as God proscribed, you insist it can be done a different way.

The "even so" is not in reference to the New Testament Church. Rather, it is referring to Apostles, those separated from the local body and sent on missionary journeys to preach the Gospel to the lost. 1 Corinthians 9:13-14 has nothing to do with stationary pastors. Nor is it speaking of tithes.

Paul said he had a right to support, not tithes. Could not be tithes at all, because Paul was a Benjamite, not a Levite. Six years after Paul's epistle to the Church at Corinth, it was still the Levites who were to receive tithes.

 

[Yet]

You are stuck in the middle priesthood. It died. The one that matters is the eternal, which received tithes before and after the middle priesthood. The mortal high priest of the second priesthood received the last of the tithes as prescribed by the law, while the eternal priesthood before and after, which was always all along in effect, receives tithes of all our substance, as Melchizedek did of Abram. Abram volunteered the tithe, not under commandment. The old covenant didn't require that, but accepted a token of their substance.

By the way, only people who die can tithe.

Required to "tithe"? No, but we are to support the church minister "even so", likewise, no less than. It's a commandment, ordained of the Lord (see last post). So it is the church can rightly promote tithes and offerings. Under the new covenant those who have no part in that, nor assemble together with believers, as has been well established throughout the history of the church, have no part in blessing of the tithe. The only promised blessing of "offerings" is essentially a repayment in kind, the little giver reaping little.

So all Christians have a choice. Take part and prosper by the hand of the Lord, or go dig it out on your own. Even the unbeliever can plant a seed and get a crop, but can't get God's ear when wanting it blessed. Neither can a stingy Christian benefit.

Christ is indeed the end of the law for those who believe in him. Believing is doing his commandments, which also issued from the apostles. It isn't enough to say you believe but don't obey, so the devils believe and tremble. Unbelievers remain under the law which is still in existence for the ungodly.

The truth is still hidden from unbelievers. It can't be fathomed with the natural mind.

R u saying Abe paid a tithe on his own sunstance?

You still didnt answer. Do we pay tithes to ourselves? Your gonna say no, pay them to the pastor. So if i call myself 'pastor', i can then legally take tithes from other believers?

And if the pastors are all working secular jobs, why should they pull for tithes?

 

[Yet]

1Cor. 9. Is speaking of the itenerent preachers. Preaching is witnessing to the lost the gospel. There is no preaching in a grounded assembly. Teaching, prophesying, exhortation and the like yes. And done by every member in an open participatory meeting. Im shocked you dont know these basics.......no im not. Traditions are blinding. They make void the word or blurrs the word.

 

[TMS]

It is simple. ague all you want, justify what suits yourself,
But God owns everything. Every cent in your bank is Gods and every cell in your body is Gods. Your actions show weather you love God or love yourselves more. If you Love God giving to Him isn't a duty or burden but a pleasure. My conscience tells me to give to my church to support my minister and support the wonderful work it is doing and God will hold everyone accountable for the way they spend His money.

 

[Dino246]

It is simple. ague all you want, justify what suits yourself,
But God owns everything. Every cent in your bank is Gods and every cell in your body is Gods. Your actions show weather you love God or love yourselves more. If you Love God giving to Him isn't a duty or burden but a pleasure. My conscience tells me to give to my church to support my minister and support the wonderful work it is doing and God will hold everyone accountable for the way they spend His money.

It's not clear who you are addressing. It also appears that you conflate tithing and giving, which aren't the same thing.

 

[StandingFirmInChrist]

It is simple. ague all you want, justify what suits yourself,
But God owns everything. Every cent in your bank is Gods and every cell in your body is Gods. Your actions show weather you love God or love yourselves more. If you Love God giving to Him isn't a duty or burden but a pleasure. My conscience tells me to give to my church to support my minister and support the wonderful work it is doing and God will hold everyone accountable for the way they spend His money.

our argument is not with God. We wholeheartedly believe in giving.

Our argument is with man, who wrests God's truth concerning what tithes are, who should be tithing, and where tithes belong.

 

[Test_F_i_2_Luv]

It is simple. ague all you want, justify what suits yourself,
But God owns everything. Every cent in your bank is Gods and every cell in your body is Gods. Your actions show weather you love God or love yourselves more. If you Love God giving to Him isn't a duty or burden but a pleasure. My conscience tells me to give to my church to support my minister and support the wonderful work it is doing and God will hold everyone accountable for the way they spend His money.

For both the pro-tithers and the pro-givers:

T/F - All tithes in O.T. times were brought to the storehouse.

T/F - Tithes were always delivered to the storehouse by the tither.

T/F - Tithes and firstfruits and offerings are all the same thing; the words are synonymous.

T/F - In O.T. times, Israelites were allowed to eat part of their tithe.

T/F - In O.T. times, one tithe was due on agriculture and livestock.

T/F - In O.T. times, the first of every 10 animals was part of a tithe. It was to be the finest and best of the flock.

T/F - In O.T. times, tithing was done on agriculture every year.

 

[StandingFirmInChrist]

God said that the silver and gold is His.

However, Jesus said that money made by the government belongs to the government.

Looks like God doesn't claim the money as being His at all.

 

[TMS]

tithing is giving in my eyes, giving a 10th back to God, If you can justify not giving anything back to God than don't, and He will judge you. Every church and cult is probably different in the way they do things. But i believe that a minister should get a set income from a body of church's which pools the tithe from all it's members and the minister is completely dedicated to Gods work in looking after a church (like a Levi priest). The church should be completely accountable and transparent with every cent.

Talk to God and He will show you what to do.

 

[TMS]

God said that the silver and gold is His.

However, Jesus said that money made by the government belongs to the government.

Looks like God doesn't claim the money as being His at all.

Don't twist it

 

[StandingFirmInChrist]

tithing is giving in my eyes, giving a 10th back to God, It you can justify not giving anything back to God than don't, and He will judge you. Every church and cult is probably different in the way they do things. But i believe that a minister should get a set income from a body of church's which pools the tithe from all it's members and the minister is completely dedicated to Gods work in looking after a church (like a Levi priest). The church should be completely accountable and transparent with every cent.

Tithing may be giving in your eyes. But God's Word reveals it is not.

You believe every minister should get a set income from a church body. However, God's Word says the Elders are to work with their hands to support themselves and the weak.

Now, who is right? You? or God?

by the way, not one Levite Priest lived in, nor did he work full time in the Temple. They worked in shifts, and as individuals were at home the greater part of the 254 day Jewish Calendar year. Individual singers, musicians and doorkeepers were at the Temple more days than any one Priest

 

[StandingFirmInChrist]

Don't twist it

Not twisting at all. Stating Biblical fact.

 

[TMS]

You have an issue about this subject and you may be right and i am giving Gods money to the church wrongly. But that is an issue between me and God and my personal experience tells me i am richer for doing it. May God show me if i am wrong and need to change what i am doing. Why did God ask the Israelites to tithe?

 

[TMS]

God said that the silver and gold is His.

However, Jesus said that money made by the government belongs to the government.

Looks like God doesn't claim the money as being His at all.

Jesus was being tested by the Jews (tricked),
Luk 20:22 Is it lawful for us to give tribute unto Caesar, or no?
Luk 20:23 But he perceived their craftiness, and said unto them, Why tempt ye me?
Luk 20:24 Shew me a penny. Whose image and superscription hath it? They answered and said, Caesar's.
Luk 20:25 And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's, and unto God the things which be God's.
If Jesus said no to paying tributes to the Roman empire the Roman power would have disliked Him but if He said Yes pay tributes, the Jews would have been upset.

Notice that Jesus didn't say it doesn't belong unto God.

 

[StandingFirmInChrist]

Jesus was being tested by the Jews (tricked),
Luk 20:22 Is it lawful for us to give tribute unto Caesar, or no?
Luk 20:23 But he perceived their craftiness, and said unto them, Why tempt ye me?
Luk 20:24 Shew me a penny. Whose image and superscription hath it? They answered and said, Caesar's.
Luk 20:25 And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's, and unto God the things which be God's.
If Jesus said no to paying tributes to the Roman empire the Roman power would have disliked Him but if He said Yes pay tributes, the Jews would have been upset.

Notice that Jesus didn't say it doesn't belong unto God.

Actually, Jesus was saying that the money did not belong to God.

Whose Image and Superscription?
by Ronald W Robey
“Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s, and unto God that which is God’s.” Matthew 22:21
The above statement made by Jesus to the scribes and Pharisees is often taken out of its context and used by pastors and laymen alike, in an attempt to prove that God requires tithe of money from the Church member today.
But, when read in context with the entire discourse, and rightly dividing the Word of Truth, it is easy to see that Jesus was not endorsing a monetary tithe at all.

Matthew 22:15-22 Then went the Pharisees, and took counsel how they might entangle him in his talk. And they sent out unto him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, Master, we know that thou art true, and teachest the way of God in truth, neither carest thou for any man: for thou regardest not the person of men. Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not? But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites? Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny. And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? They say unto him, Caesar’s. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s. When they had heard these words, they marvelled, and left him, and went their way.
​

The disciples of the Pharisees and Herodians asked Jesus a question concerning tribute paid to Caesar. Jesus’ profound reply is overlooked by many today.
The image and superscription on the tribute money was that of the ruling government… Caesar’s. In our modern language, we would say it thusly, “Pay the government the taxes they require. The money is theirs.”
Jesus also said that those disciples who questioned Him were to give to God that which was God’s. Was He speaking of money when He said, “Render unto God the things that are God’s”? Not at all.In the very first chapter of the Bible, we are told that man was created in God’s image. So, the question arises, “Whose image and superscription is on man?”
Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
That’s right… God’s image. And when man places his faith in the Lord Jesus Christ for his Salvation, God’s superscription is upon that man.
Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Romans 12:1-2 tell us that we are to present our bodies as living sacrifices unto God, holy and acceptable unto Him.
“Render unto God that which is God’s.”
In Matthew 22:15-22, Jesus was not telling the Pharisaical and Herodian disciples to tithe money. He was telling them to yield their own selves, their bodies to the LORD’s service. And Paul echoed that admonition in his epistle to the Romans thirty years later.
God’s image is on us. Let us always be prepared to be yielded to His service.

 

[StandingFirmInChrist]

You have an issue about this subject and you may be right and i am giving Gods money to the church wrongly. But that is an issue between me and God and my personal experience tells me i am richer for doing it. May God show me if i am wrong and need to change what i am doing. Why did God ask the Israelites to tithe?

God did not ask the Israelites to tithe. He commanded them to tithe.

why? That they might fear the Lord. Also, for the sustenance of the Levites who owned no land. (Tell me, does your pastor own land?) Also, to feed the widows, orphans and strangers in Israel.