Can we discuss... MGTOW?

[Dino246]

Hi All,
This thread is inspired partly by SeoulSearch's recent threads (kudos!) and partly by some YouTube videos I've seen. I would like some feedback on a present cultural phenomenon.

I happened to watch a couple of videos on feminism and anti-feminism which led me to the idea of “MGTOW” - Men Going Their Own Way. I am NOT avowing MGTOW (some of these men are very cynical!); I just would like to discuss it.

For those unfamiliar with the concept, allow me to summarize and generalize: MGTOW men are disgusted by the (perceived) gynocentric legal and cultural systems which make men the victim/slave providers for women who take what they want in relationships and leave the men holding the bill, in some cases for life (permanent alimony after 10 years of marriage in some states, 20 in Canada). So many men are tired of being manipulated by women, verbally or even physically abused, and liberated of their assets (and even their children) in divorce courts, with little legal protection and much cultural shaming, that they are simply choosing to avoid marriage, and even long-term relationships, completely. Hence, “going their own way”. They aren't turning to other men, but they are turning away from the idea of marriage. Their numbers are growing rapidly; at least one such person has frequented this forum.

I have been pondering this for a few months, wondering how Scripture applies to this movement. The answer came in this morning's sermon: Matthew 24:12 “Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold.”

So, here are a bunch of biblically-aware Christian singles, some of whom are looking for connections. What a perfect group from which to invite feedback on this subject. So let me invite you all to respond to these questions:

• Do you know any MGTOW men (or women who are pro-men's rights)? Have they discussed their views?
• How do you interpret their views?
• Even if you would not choose their practice, do you “get” where they are coming from?
• What is a reasonable Christian response to MGTOW? To extreme feminism?
• For the gals especially, how do (might) you assure your man that you wouldn't treat him “that” way if things were to go badly in your relationship?

Any related thoughts or questions are welcome. Thanks!

 

[Lynx]

Hmmm... I remember one guy who had his wife cheat on him and get pregnant by another guy. Their divorce was not finalized until after the baby's birth, so the court ruled the ex-husband had to pay child support to this cheating ex-wife and her boyfriend.

As I recall, the ex-husband shot his ex-wife and her boyfriend. Though I don't think I'd be that drastic, I would be... slightly miffed... if I were in that situation. So yeah, I can see where some of these guys are coming from.

And I think I know the forum member you are talking about. Kind of hard to miss him, he turned a lot of threads into ad-hoc MGTOW rants... I mean discussions.

 

[phil36]

I blame the feminists

 

[blondieindahouse]

Never heard of it.

 

[PeterJens]

The old term is it takes two to tango. Intimacy means vulnerability, and some individuals are too quick to sell out for intimacy over wisdom and often get burnt as a result.

One guy on cc turned out to marry a woman who was completely unfaithful, seduced men at the drop of a hat, and yet he was so bowled over by her he was prepared to marry her. He is now getting divorced, after years of turmoil.

So saying relationships are easy to pin down blame etc is often complex, and ofcourse the courts end up having a hard time.
Joseph was put in prison after being set up by Potiphas wife, and that still happens all the time somewhere.

There is a whole load of women here who have had very abusive partners, who seemed charming at first and became life threatening, so this areas is full of explosive material. In amongst it all there are some very loving people who sacrifice and love their partners, and the Lord honours.

So caution is always an important issue in everything that really matters. It took me 3 years before I married my wife after first meeting her, 1 year before we first started going out, and 2 years of going out together where we really got to know each other. I can say without her love, I would not be the man I am today. And after 3 kids, a lot of life issues and circumstances, we needed the battleship the Lord built to survive.

 

[Grace-Like-Rain]

I don't know of any men personally who have sworn off women, nor any women who have sworn off men. I mean, I've heard of them choosing not to date or marry, but not out of a bitterness of spirit. I have heard of cases where men got a very raw deal in their marriage/divorce and were taken advantage of. I know of women who married men who were definitely not good husbands to them, and are now raising children on their own with no help from the father, financial or otherwise. I honestly believe that the odds of either of these happening are about the same regarding men/women being taken advantage of.

The Christian response? That's a tough one... Hard-heartedness is wrong, and we must not go down that road. Holding too tightly to oneself out of fear that we will be hurt or taken advantage of doesn't seem Christlike. I guess I'd advise anyone considering MGTOW to examine their motives. If they find themselves without bitterness or fear, just support them in their single life.

I think it's very important to understand, also, that in this life we just have to trust God and where he's leading us. He may lead us (or we may go anyway) down paths where we are mistreated, but he will always take care of us himself. We may be swindled or robbed from or abused, but does God not always have complete control over the lives of his children? Are not ALL things for our benefit in some way or another? We have to trust. We have to let go and trust. Not trust our gf/bf/spouse... (because we are all human and we all sin) but trust GOD to keep his eye on us. If we know that he is faithful, what can mere man do to us?

As Joseph tells his brothers, who sold him into slavery, "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result..." Genesis 50:20

 

[coby]

Hi All,
This thread is inspired partly by SeoulSearch's recent threads (kudos!) and partly by some YouTube videos I've seen. I would like some feedback on a present cultural phenomenon.

I happened to watch a couple of videos on feminism and anti-feminism which led me to the idea of “MGTOW” - Men Going Their Own Way. I am NOT avowing MGTOW (some of these men are very cynical!); I just would like to discuss it.

For those unfamiliar with the concept, allow me to summarize and generalize: MGTOW men are disgusted by the (perceived) gynocentric legal and cultural systems which make men the victim/slave providers for women who take what they want in relationships and leave the men holding the bill, in some cases for life (permanent alimony after 10 years of marriage in some states, 20 in Canada). So many men are tired of being manipulated by women, verbally or even physically abused, and liberated of their assets (and even their children) in divorce courts, with little legal protection and much cultural shaming, that they are simply choosing to avoid marriage, and even long-term relationships, completely. Hence, “going their own way”. They aren't turning to other men, but they are turning away from the idea of marriage. Their numbers are growing rapidly; at least one such person has frequented this forum.

I have been pondering this for a few months, wondering how Scripture applies to this movement. The answer came in this morning's sermon: Matthew 24:12 “Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold.”

So, here are a bunch of biblically-aware Christian singles, some of whom are looking for connections. What a perfect group from which to invite feedback on this subject. So let me invite you all to respond to these questions:

• Do you know any MGTOW men (or women who are pro-men's rights)? Have they discussed their views?
• How do you interpret their views?
• Even if you would not choose their practice, do you “get” where they are coming from?
• What is a reasonable Christian response to MGTOW? To extreme feminism?
• For the gals especially, how do (might) you assure your man that you wouldn't treat him “that” way if things were to go badly in your relationship?

Any related thoughts or questions are welcome. Thanks!

- yes one guy from another forum and I read some stuff from such a website
- they're right, it's extreme, in Sweden it's insane, men have no rights
- yes because my kids were taken away from me, a 3 month old baby so I know how monstrous that is
- there need to be good laws for men and kids. In Holland they forced my ex to coparent and paying alimony is less and not that long anymore. Women must take a job. But still it's bad here too, but not as extreme as in America.
- well I guess he hears that immediately. Lol I hate feminism. It had some good things but they want to rule. I got banned from another forum because I disagreed with a feminist and posted all this men's rights stuff.

 

[Born_Again]

Ohhhh man!! I'm all over this one!! The guys who's wife cheated and had a kid before the divorce was final.... That's me! Minus the gunfire. LOL I'm not sure where to even begin. Well, actually, I wont get into that mess. But anywho, as a result you have already read a rather jaded and cynical post from me on another thread. Simply put, I have now chosen to remain single for the rest of my life. In my time alone I have realized that I am not emotionally co-dependent and can certainly do without a female companion. I'll hang out with one on a friend only basis but I am quite content not having anyone around. Only when you have tasted the splendor of sleeping diagonal across a queen sized bed do you respect being single. Im 33 years old. I am not in the business of interviewing perspective partners and possibly having to adjust anything about me they may or may not like. Its just good business!

And I certainly will not go through a mess like a have already gone through again. Men go their own way??? Absolutely!!

 

[Grace-Like-Rain]

About the guy having to pay child support for a child that isn't his... why didn't he have a paternity test? That's crazy!

Texas has very fair laws for divorce. Alimony is non-existent except perhaps in very extreme circumstances, and all debts and assets accrued during the marriage are divided 50/50 among both parties. (Whatever was owned before the marriage stays with it's original owner.) It's pretty clear-cut and very fair for men.

Co-parenting is quite common now too, with many men co-raising or completely raising their children after divorce. This is a huge improvement for men over 20 or even 10 years ago.

 

[eternallife7]

It seems the world tends to blame and complain. My advice is to slow down in life and know God's word for us correctly.

 

[Born_Again]

About the guy having to pay child support for a child that isn't his... why didn't he have a paternity test? That's crazy!

Texas has very fair laws for divorce. Alimony is non-existent except perhaps in very extreme circumstances, and all debts and assets accrued during the marriage are divided 50/50 among both parties. (Whatever was owned before the marriage stays with it's original owner.) It's pretty clear-cut and very fair for men.

Co-parenting is quite common now too, with many men co-raising or completely raising their children after divorce. This is a huge improvement for men over 20 or even 10 years ago.

In my case, it is very obvious the child is not mine as it is a completely different ethnicity. Hows that for awkward?

 

[NotmebutHim]

From what I've learned, here is my assessment of MGTOW:

MGTOW has different levels. It is not always a natural progression from one level to the next; many men choose to stay at certain levels based on the amount of risk they are willing to take when it comes to women. Some say that MGTOW and marriage are mutually exclusive, while others say that a man can be happily married and MGTOW at the same time. That is, he is choosing his own path and he is married because HE wants to be, not because "society" says he has to be married.

MGTOW's also refer to the blue pill/red pill concept from the "Matrix" movies. In other words, "blue pill" men haven't been "enlightened" to the risks that they face in this world when dealing with women, or worse, they are willfully blind to them. Red pillers, on the other hand, have had their eyes opened and they are aware of the pitfalls. Again, one man may be willing to take on more risks than another man would.

Although I wouldn't consider myself a strict MGHOW (man going his own way), I can certainly identify and agree with a lot of what the MGTOW's believe and stand for.

Which is one reason why I don't care too much for threads where men are asked what their likes/dislikes are regarding women and then they are "taken to the woodshed" for them.

My $0.02

NMBH

 

[Grace-Like-Rain]

In my case, it is very obvious the child is not mine as it is a completely different ethnicity. Hows that for awkward?

I'm very curious how you got stuck with the bill, if you don't mind sharing... did you have a lawyer? Did the judge realize that the child wasn't yours? I'm just baffled here.

 

[Born_Again]

I'm very curious how you got stuck with the bill, if you don't mind sharing... did you have a lawyer? Did the judge realize that the child wasn't yours? I'm just baffled here.

She was on my insurance. Theres a lot more to the whole thing but I start seeing red when I reflect on it. LOL

 

[Grace-Like-Rain]

She was on my insurance. Theres a lot more to the whole thing but I start seeing red when I reflect on it. LOL

Totally understandable. Sometimes it's best not to turn around and look back down the road! Moving right along then.

 

[seoulsearch]

Hi Dino, thanks for the nod!

I agree with much of what has been said here so I don't want to repeat the great points that have already been made. I am definitely for fair treatment of both genders and I often think about the fact that now days many men have been raised in households with mothers who blamed them for what another man did in the past.

I personally see movements like this as "maninism" (the male answer to feminism), but here's a question I never see answered:

If Christian men subscribe to this lifestyle, it means they never plan on marrying. How then, do they cope with the thought of never experiencing sexual expression, AT ALL, for the rest of their lives?

I'm always curious about this because there have been a few males here who've said they'd never marry because of how unfair society is to men in the court systems. I understand this line of thinking. But I also always wonder if they've thought about the fact that this also means as a Christian, they will go through a lifetime of never having sex?

I'm not saying it's not possible or that men haven't thought of this--I'm just curious as to what their conclusion is, especially when we have so many "I'm Trying to Break Away from Porn" threads in the forums.

And of course, I am NOT, in any way, shape, or form, advocating the thought of marrying for the sake of sex, but with so much emphasis in our culture being placed on how important sexuality is to men, is the Christian man perfectly ok with the thought of lifelong celibacy in order to avoid marriage?

I'm also not saying that women are somehow exempt. But since this thread is about men, I felt it was important to ask, because if one wants to adhere to this lifestyle, dealing with this issue is unavoidable.

 

[Born_Again]

Hi Dino, thanks for the nod!

I agree with much of what has been said here so I don't want to repeat the great points that have already been made. I am definitely for fair treatment of both genders and I often think about the fact that now days many men have been raised in households with mothers who blamed them for what another man did in the past.

I personally see movements like this as "maninism" (the male answer to feminism), but here's a question I never see answered:

If Christian men subscribe to this lifestyle, it means they never plan on marrying. How then, do they cope with thought of never experiencing sexual expression, AT ALL, for the rest of their lives?

I'm always curious about this because there have been a few males here who've said they'd never marry because of how unfair society is to men in the court systems. I understand this line of thinking. But I also always wonder if they've thought about the fact that this also means as a Christian, they will go through a lifetime of never having sex?

I'm not saying it's not possible or that men haven't thought of this--I'm just curious as to what their conclusion is, especially when we have so many "I'm Trying to Break Away from Porn" threads in the forums.

And of course, I am NOT, in any way, shape, or form, advocating the thought of marrying for the sake of sex, but with so much emphasis in our culture being placed on how important sexuality is to men, is the Christian man perfectly ok with the thought of lifelong celibacy in order to avoid marriage?

I'm also not saying that women are somehow exempt. But since this thread is about men, I felt it was important to ask, because if one wants to adhere to this lifestyle, dealing with this issue is unavoidable.

Well, to answer that.... I simply don't put myself in situations where that is an issue.

 

[Dino246]

Ohhhh man!! I'm all over this one!! The guys who's wife cheated and had a kid before the divorce was final.... That's me! Minus the gunfire. LOL I'm not sure where to even begin. Well, actually, I wont get into that mess. But anywho, as a result you have already read a rather jaded and cynical post from me on another thread. Simply put, I have now chosen to remain single for the rest of my life. In my time alone I have realized that I am not emotionally co-dependent and can certainly do without a female companion. I'll hang out with one on a friend only basis but I am quite content not having anyone around. Only when you have tasted the splendor of sleeping diagonal across a queen sized bed do you respect being single. Im 33 years old. I am not in the business of interviewing perspective partners and possibly having to adjust anything about me they may or may not like. Its just good business!

And I certainly will not go through a mess like a have already gone through again. Men go their own way??? Absolutely!!

Thanks for sharing your story, sincerely. No judgments from me!

 

[eternallife7]

It seems the world tends to blame and complain. My advice is to slow down in life and know God's word for us correctly.

I'm not trying to sound rude or sound like I'm talking about believers on this thread, but I just do t understand how people expect justice and fairness when they reject the only one who can give it to them.

 

[Born_Again]

I'm not trying to sound rude or sound like I'm talking about believers on this thread, but I just do t understand how people expect justice and fairness when they reject the only one who can give it to them.

You are obviously not paying attention.