ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED, HYPER GRACE, ETERNAL SECURITY = FALSE DOCTRINE PROVEN!

[nowyouseem033]

If we could lose our salvation as Christians.. I get the feeling we would have lost it every waking moment we have. Plus it invokes meritorious works to attain the favour of God, which so easily makes us self-righteous.

My question to those who believe you can lose your salvation is What do you do to stay saved?

If you say is just believe, then you just defeated the question, because you believe because you are saved...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Unless you're a Jew ,right? Christ is gonna come a second time to saved them, right?

This is ridiculous. I just am at the point I have no respect for people anymore. You know I do not believe this, and all it is is a selfish feeble attack in an attempt to make yourself look good.

Thats why I have been away for awhile. People in here are just so insincere it is amazing.

 

[notuptome]

This is ridiculous. I just am at the point I have no respect for people anymore. You know I do not believe this, and all it is is a selfish feeble attack in an attempt to make yourself look good.

Thats why I have been away for awhile. People in here are just so insincere it is amazing.

It is difficult not to become weary in well doing.

Ga 6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
2Th 3:13 But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing.
1Pe 2:15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Bookends]

This is ridiculous. I just am at the point I have no respect for people anymore. You know I do not believe this, and all it is is a selfish feeble attack in an attempt to make yourself look good.

Thats why I have been away for awhile. People in here are just so insincere it is amazing.

LOL, I'm sorry bro...sometimes I just shouldn't react on my knee jerk reactions. I'm guilty, I pulled the trigger.

I did think that's what you thought, I know many Christians believe that and interpret Roman 11 that way when Paul said they will be blind until time of the gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved.

As far as coming here, I hear yah, I don't come here much either.

 

[Bookends]

It is difficult not to become weary in well doing.

Ga 6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
2Th 3:13 But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing.
1Pe 2:15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Is this a dig against me? Are you calling me foolish? Are you going to make me silent?

Just asking.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

LOL, I'm sorry bro...sometimes I just shouldn't react on my knee jerk reactions. I'm guilty, I pulled the trigger.

I did think that's what you thought, I know many Christians believe that and interpret Roman 11 that way when Paul said they will be blind until time of the gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved.

As far as coming here, I hear yah, I don't come here much either.

It would not be so bad if we have not had this conversation so many times in the past.

Like everyone else lately. They hear key words instead of actually listening to what someone really believes, And assume because They hear these words (say like you believe rom 11 teaches that so you MUST believe this) They make false assumptions and false allegations of what they believe. And all it does it get into a huge fight about who is right and who is wrong, and there can never be a resolution because of all the false accusations,

All this does is raise the anger of the other person. Insults start flaring, and we as Christians look like idiots..

 

[Bookends]

I believe in once saved always saved!!! Clearly taught in the bible

Its once prayed always saved I have a problem with!!!!

Can you lose your salvation???
This suggests two contradictory statements.

1) That salvation is yours.. (Can you...lose YOUR)
2) and that salvation is conditional based upon YOUR choice for him or against him. Which then puts YOU at the very centre of saving yourself!!! hence following maintaining yourself also.


Salavation is of the lord, so when God saves since God does the saving, the question is reversed to a God centred view and understanding.
Can God lose your salvation? rather than Can I lose my salvation?
to answer this question is simply by answering this question:
Who does the saving???
Whoever does the saving is the very same being that does the maintaining.
Clearly God does the saving so therefore God is the one who finishes that which has been started.
and once your saved, God will never lose you and their no longer remains condemnation for those that are his.
Remember we didn't choose him, he chose us.

However don't think a person is saved because they professed faith because it is possessing faith that determines if one is saved not professing faith. Many professing faith Christians few possessing faith Christians.
Hence once prayed always saved is the statement we should be attacking not once saved always saved.

It's not clearly thought in the bible, what is clear, that if we abide in Christ, we are secure. In Romans 11, read Paul's comment on the cultivated olive tree, which is combination of Jewish believers and gentile believers. Why would Paul mention to the gentile believers to be careful, to beware of the severity of God, that if they didn't cling to the goodness of God they could be broken off as well? In order for a gentile to be broken off, they had to have been grafted into the tree to begin with.pancies
The fact is, there are scriptures that seem to support both positions. The problem is not that the bible has discrepancies, it's are faulty interpretations of what and why things are said.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The fact is, there are scriptures that seem to support both positions. The problem is not that the bible has discrepancies, it's are faulty interpretations of what and why things are said.

We can agree here.

And it is why we can not agree that the bible is not clear. I think it is quite clear..

 

[Gr8grace]

The gnostics walked according to the same spirit that you're walking. They thought that nothing they did could corrupt them.

How was your Christmas and holidays? You seem "off" or just plain bitter as of late.

your new creation in Christ. It is perfectly righteous.It cannot sin. You believe you can corrupt the new creation In Christ?

The Gnostics didn't believe that the Lord Jesus Christ was human..................this is their heresy. We have a major problem if we don't believe that the Lord Jesus Christ was true humanity.

And it is to late for the flesh...........it is already totally corrupt.

 

[Bookends]

We can agree here.

And it is why we can not agree that the bible is not clear. I think it is quite clear..

Can you then explain to me how a gentile once grafted to the family of God (cultivated olive tree) can be cut off, as Paul says he could be and not lose his salvation?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Can you then explain to me how a gentile once grafted to the family of God (cultivated olive tree) can be cut off, as Paul says he could be and not lose his salvation?

Why would I even attempt to.

The context is not that "A" Gentile was grafted in, The context was the nation of Israel (the natural branches) were cut off. And the gentiles (unnatural branches) were grafted in. (talking about a group of people not individuals)

Thats what I mean, our interpretation of the passage is what makes the issue an issue, And makes the topic of losing salvation as you say (unsure) and does not make it an issue to me at all. Because one persons salvation or non salvation is not even the topic of discussion.

Romans 11 is not talking about salvation of anyone, it is discussing what paul said in verse one, Is God done with Israel.

If we do not interpret ALL of chapter 11 with this as context. we are going to risk misinterpreting it, and make it say something it never said to begin with.

 

[Utah]

LOL, I'm sorry bro...sometimes I just shouldn't react on my knee jerk reactions. I'm guilty, I pulled the trigger.

I did think that's what you thought, I know many Christians believe that and interpret Roman 11 that way when Paul said they will be blind until time of the gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved.

As far as coming here, I hear yah, I don't come here much either.

Romans 11 is one of the most difficult chapters in the Bible for me to grasp. I read one day and it says this; I read it another day and it says that. I still don't know.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Romans 11 is one of the most difficult chapters in the Bible for me to grasp. I read one day and it says this; I read it another day and it says that. I still don't know.

At least your honest. If we would all just be this way.

 

[Utah]

At least your honest. If we would all just be this way.

Thank you brother. Its great having you back!

 

[notuptome]

Is this a dig against me? Are you calling me foolish? Are you going to make me silent?

Just asking.

Nope just encouraging another who is weighed down with a load of care.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[KennethC]

It's not clearly thought in the bible, what is clear, that if we abide in Christ, we are secure. In Romans 11, read Paul's comment on the cultivated olive tree, which is combination of Jewish believers and gentile believers. Why would Paul mention to the gentile believers to be careful, to beware of the severity of God, that if they didn't cling to the goodness of God they could be broken off as well? In order for a gentile to be broken off, they had to have been grafted into the tree to begin with.pancies
The fact is, there are scriptures that seem to support both positions. The problem is not that the bible has discrepancies, it's are faulty interpretations of what and why things are said.

I have seen this passage in Romans 11 be stated that it is referring to the whole group, this of course is a false rendering of that passage.

The reason being is if it referred to the whole group then the Apostles themselves could never have been saved, because it speaks of the Jews being cut off. Well if it refers to the whole group then the Apostles would have to be among those cut off.

No it is only referring to the unbelieving Jews who were cut off, not the Jews who put their faith in Christ.


The reverse also works the same way...................

A Gentile is only grafted in when they put their faith in Christ, we are not automatically grafted in before this is done.

Also if one Gentile believer stops placing their faith and trust in Jesus, that does not effect the rest of us Gentile believers who keep our faith and trust in the Lord.

In order for this to speak on the whole group then if one person loses faith and gets cut off, then we all would have to be cut off because of this one person's actions. Doesn't seem right when put forward in this proper perspective does it ???

What one person does, does not effect our stand in Christ unless we let it !!!

 

[Dan58]

Clearly God does the saving so therefore God is the one who finishes that which has been started.
and once your saved, God will never lose you and their no longer remains condemnation for those that are his.
Remember we didn't choose him, he chose us.

Those who oppose OSAS theology don't reject it on God's ability to save, but on a persons inability to remain a faithful believer. The theory that once you believe, your saved, insinuates that people can never have a change of heart, can never be influenced by anything different, and their freedom of choice is removed. But as long as people can falter and have a change of heart, the OSAS doctrine is a false philosophy that invokes security in sin. That's why I don't like it, sounds like a religious insurance policy; "Go ahead and do it, your covered". The bible clearly gives us 'assurance' of salvation, but it also warns of hypocrisy, so in a sense, those on both sides of the issue are correct. My objection is that osas can be misleading to new Christians because its a guarantee that requires nothing of them, including repenting for sins.

 

[RickyZ]

The thing to remember about sin is that, while it will not lead to a loss of salvation, it does serve as evidence to question your salvation, and even tho you are saved you will be held to account for your sin.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The thing to remember about sin is that, while it will not lead to a loss of salvation, it does serve as evidence to question your salvation, and even tho you are saved you will be held to account for your sin.

The law demands perfection..

Unless you live up to that standard. you will never earn salvation.

So if you question your salvation because you can;t keep Gods standard (because you still sin) then you question Gods grace, mercy and forgiveness.

 

[notuptome]

Those who oppose OSAS theology don't reject it on God's ability to save, but on a persons inability to remain a faithful believer. The theory that once you believe, your saved, insinuates that people can never have a change of heart, can never be influenced by anything different, and their freedom of choice is removed. But as long as people can falter and have a change of heart, the OSAS doctrine is a false philosophy that invokes security in sin. That's why I don't like it, sounds like a religious insurance policy; "Go ahead and do it, your covered". The bible clearly gives us 'assurance' of salvation, but it also warns of hypocrisy, so in a sense, those on both sides of the issue are correct. My objection is that osas can be misleading to new Christians because its a guarantee that requires nothing of them, including repenting for sins.

That is the difference between Christianity and cults. Christianity teaches that Christ has done it all nothing more to do. Cults always pile on the onus and burdens to make one indebted to the cult.

The heart change is made by God. Once changed by God the heart is never the same.

If you have not experienced the new creation in Christ then what did you experience?

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Ga 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

For the cause of Christ
Roger