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popeye
Guest
I see the hypergrace claims are mostly true,just need qualifying.
The other side brings missing verses to the table,and gets the "wrath"(lol) of the HG ers.
The other side brings missing verses to the table,and gets the "wrath"(lol) of the HG ers.
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popeye
Guest
Unfortunately many people want to "work" for their Salvation in order to boast about it.
Ephesians 2:8-9
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
[SUP]9 [/SUP] not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Clearly the reason one believes they can lose their Salvation is because they actually believe they can work for their Salvation.
How can you lose a Gift given to you by God? Its not something physical you can lose track of, its Spiritual!
There is no way to lose your Salvation by accident. A person has to work very hard to lose their Salvation.
I find it appalling that many so-called Brothers know absolutely nothing about what God says in the Scriptures.
Ephesians 2:8-9
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
[SUP]9 [/SUP] not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Clearly the reason one believes they can lose their Salvation is because they actually believe they can work for their Salvation.
How can you lose a Gift given to you by God? Its not something physical you can lose track of, its Spiritual!
There is no way to lose your Salvation by accident. A person has to work very hard to lose their Salvation.
I find it appalling that many so-called Brothers know absolutely nothing about what God says in the Scriptures.
Well take a warning from me, this doctrine is of the devil. You might think it sounds good the way the words are deceitfully framed here, but there is a lot hidden below the surface that you do not see.
Wow Roger, you missed the point COMPLETELY (as you always do). The point was that you don't understand because you are so at odds with, and openly contradict, simple scripture. One who so blatantly contradicts scripture cannot understand scripture.
Exactly. Just as receiving salvation depends on a conscious decision to accept it, losing salvation requires a conscious decision to reject it (again, belief/disbelief not being acts of works).
Which for the huge majority of us here, it will never be an issue.
K
KennethC
Guest
If people want to continue to follow a doctrine of man that didn't exist before the 4th century (301-400 A.D.), and since then has had many adaptations or versions of it under different names and doctrinal differences that even causes in fighting disputes among those who follow it.
Then after giving them the truth just withdraw from them and pray for them to be removed from this man made lie, and to turn to the truth before it is to late and at judgment hear those words none of want to hear;
"I never knew you, go away you who continue in iniquity" = lawlessness/sinful lifestyles
Then after giving them the truth just withdraw from them and pray for them to be removed from this man made lie, and to turn to the truth before it is to late and at judgment hear those words none of want to hear;
"I never knew you, go away you who continue in iniquity" = lawlessness/sinful lifestyles
K
KennethC
Guest
You stated the issue very clearly, their failure in understanding is because they always focus on the works aspect in this area of discussion instead of the belief/disbelief aspect.
G
Gr8grace
Guest
Rom 11:29~~New American Standard Bible
for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
New American Standard Bible
for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
New American Standard Bible
for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
James 1:17~~New American Standard Bible
Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow.
And spiritual realm issues are complex and sometimes very difficult to wrap one's earthly head around.
S
sparkman
Guest
When someone claims that those who believe in eternal security just want to sin, I wonder if the only reason THEY practice obedience (assuming they do) is because they might lose their salvation if they don't, and that THEY would be sinning if they knew they were eternally secure. I also wonder if they understand anything about being born again, born from above, or being regenerate, and how that changes the nature of the person. I wonder how honored God feels by a person with such a motivation, and whether it's any different than the slavish motivation that Muslims have for following Allah.
But then I remember a lot of these guys are baby Christians
But then I remember a lot of these guys are baby Christians
When someone claims that those who believe in eternal security just want to sin, I wonder if the only reason THEY practice obedience (assuming they do) is because they might lose their salvation if they don't, and that THEY would be sinning if they knew they were eternally secure. I also wonder if they understand anything about being born again, born from above, or being regenerate, and how that changes the nature of the person. I wonder how honored God feels by a person with such a motivation, and whether it's any different than the slavish motivation that Muslims have for following Allah.
But then I remember a lot of these guys are baby Christians
That is a common misconception. Those who proclaim OSAS don't promote a license to sin, any more that those who deny it proclaim a works salvation. It's just too bad that we all have become so polarized that we can't see this from either side of the aisle.
S
sparkman
Guest
I agree, however basically what I'm doing is turning the person's argument back on himself.
He's probably parroting what he's heard from his pastor or some website anyways.
I John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.
BLAH BLAH BLAH.....Where sin abound grace did much more about...the bible teaches eternal justification before God the Father based upon the righteousness of Christ being applied dia his faith and his continual mediatorship.....you should study verb tense and Greek words....you will see that context, verb tense and the truth contradict your view.....!
L
ladylynn
Guest
reposted....
Actually I came to the grace table sort of speak and began to believe literally what the Bible says about "having received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we may know the things that have been freely given to us by God." 1 Corinthians 2:12 and then later I came upon Joseph Prince on tv. He is the first preacher I have heard that talks of Grace like this.
Many Christians find it hard to take freely from God without trying to "do" something first. It's so foreign to the 20th century christian. We are taught to attain but, attaining something that has been freely given is impossible. I later found out that is was a gift all along to be RECEIVED just like for salvation. RECEIVED NOT ATTAINED
Sadly I can't find many Christians who accept this without labeling with the "prosperity gospel" stamp and or saying this is advocating sin so grace will abound. Or insisting on human crying and emotion when it comes to repentance when really repentance is a change of mind not always associated with sorrow. I have since found out that God wants faith in what His Son Jesus did and to continue to learn of Him...beholding Jesus and then we will be transformed by the renewing of our minds... that is true repentance... a mind changed and renewed so the christian can actually "do" from a true heart belief.
Grace teaches us that denying ungodliness and worldly lusts we are to live soberly righteously and godly in this present world.....
I am now of the mindset of the prodigal son, who deserved nothing, but received everything Luke 15:11-24 How to share that with other Christians?? Some automatically say because there is no fear you will sin. But I'm seeing the truth of the Bible that says perfect love (believing in God's love for us) casts out fear.
It's amazing to see it all through the filter of God's unmerited favor "grace" it is the key that opened the doors to the promises. Jesus paid it all, all to Him I owe, sin had left a crimson stain,., He washed it white as snow. Romans 6
Is there anyone else here who has been set free from the place of sin and has been brought into the place of "righteousness" that Jesus secured for them? Most of the references to sin in the NT are referring to sin (noun) not action word (verb) we were once in a place of sin, now we are in that place of righteousness. So we can come boldly to the throne of grace. No longer dragging condemnation and shame.
Romans 6:15 is a sinful action and deed, but everywhere else in Romans sin is a noun already demolished by Jesus, finished and done with for us. Jesus said it is finished.,never to be repeated. Sins removal is done. "For he who has died is free from sin" (noun) This is amazing.
"For sin shall not have dominion over you for you are not under law but under grace" The death that Jesus died He died ONCE and for all. likewise in the same manner.... you are to recon yourself dead to sin and alive to God. He is not dying gradually to sin. He finished it.
The letters of Paul do not speak of the christian carrying his cross. WOW. because Jesus already took up the cross. WE have this inheritence. Enjoying the wealth in Christ is about reconning our selves dead to sin. we r not free from the verb sin, but free from the NOUN sin. Unless we understand what it means to be dead to sin ...the noun... we wont have power to not sin (verb) Jesus knew no sin. He took our sin. He died to the imputation of sin., that is the only sin He had.. what He took from us. How did He become sin ? by receiving our sin. How do we become righteous? by receiving His righteousness. His righteousness was "imputed" to us. Romans 5. by one mans sin we were all made sinners.... sinners are sinners because of Adams sin. we were in that place of sin., needing to be born again.
by ONE mans obedience (Jesus) many are made righteous. wowzo These are some of the amazing doctrines of grace I've heard and read this year. Romans 5:19-21
For just as by one man's disobedience (failing to hear, heedlessness and carelessness) the many were constituted sinners, so by one Man's obedience the many will be constituted rigtheous (made acceptable to God brought into right standing with Him
20 But then Law came in, (only) to expand and increase the trespass (making it more apparent and exciting opposition) But where sin increased and abounded, grace (God's unmerited favor) has surpassed it and increased the more and superabounded.
21. So that (just) as sin has reigned in death, (so) grace (His unearned and undeserved favor) might reign also through righteousness (right standing with God) which issues in eternal life through Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One) our Lord. Amplified Bible
The warfare is bringing our thoughts 'to' looking at the obedience of Christ... not looking at our obedience. Unless we are dead to the condemnation of sin we will not have the power not to sin. It is then we are empowered to sin no more when we understand what the grace of God has done in sending Jesus who took all the condemnation and guilt of sin ONCE and for all. Law produces condemnation. So the devil has succeeded to put it into our heads that grace is dangerous and law is good. The law is the strength of sin.
Our obedience does not produce righteousness. It is a gift given by the death of Jesus on the cross. Amen!!
Actually I came to the grace table sort of speak and began to believe literally what the Bible says about "having received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we may know the things that have been freely given to us by God." 1 Corinthians 2:12 and then later I came upon Joseph Prince on tv. He is the first preacher I have heard that talks of Grace like this.
Many Christians find it hard to take freely from God without trying to "do" something first. It's so foreign to the 20th century christian. We are taught to attain but, attaining something that has been freely given is impossible. I later found out that is was a gift all along to be RECEIVED just like for salvation. RECEIVED NOT ATTAINED
Sadly I can't find many Christians who accept this without labeling with the "prosperity gospel" stamp and or saying this is advocating sin so grace will abound. Or insisting on human crying and emotion when it comes to repentance when really repentance is a change of mind not always associated with sorrow. I have since found out that God wants faith in what His Son Jesus did and to continue to learn of Him...beholding Jesus and then we will be transformed by the renewing of our minds... that is true repentance... a mind changed and renewed so the christian can actually "do" from a true heart belief.
Grace teaches us that denying ungodliness and worldly lusts we are to live soberly righteously and godly in this present world.....
I am now of the mindset of the prodigal son, who deserved nothing, but received everything Luke 15:11-24 How to share that with other Christians?? Some automatically say because there is no fear you will sin. But I'm seeing the truth of the Bible that says perfect love (believing in God's love for us) casts out fear.
It's amazing to see it all through the filter of God's unmerited favor "grace" it is the key that opened the doors to the promises. Jesus paid it all, all to Him I owe, sin had left a crimson stain,., He washed it white as snow.
Romans 6 Is there anyone else here who has been set free from the place of sin and has been brought into the place of "righteousness" that Jesus secured for them? Most of the references to sin in the NT are referring to sin (noun) not action word (verb) we were once in a place of sin, now we are in that place of righteousness. So we can come boldly to the throne of grace. No longer dragging condemnation and shame.
Romans 6:15 is a sinful action and deed, but everywhere else in Romans sin is a noun already demolished by Jesus, finished and done with for us.
Jesus said it is finished.,never to be repeated. Sins removal is done. "For he who has died is free from sin" (noun) This is amazing."For sin shall not have dominion over you for you are not under law but under grace" The death that Jesus died He died ONCE and for all. likewise in the same manner.... you are to recon yourself dead to sin and alive to God. He is not dying gradually to sin. He finished it.
The letters of Paul do not speak of the christian carrying his cross. WOW. because Jesus already took up the cross. WE have this inheritence. Enjoying the wealth in Christ is about reconning our selves dead to sin. we r not free from the verb sin, but free from the NOUN sin. Unless we understand what it means to be dead to sin ...the noun... we wont have power to not sin (verb) Jesus knew no sin. He took our sin. He died to the imputation of sin., that is the only sin He had.. what He took from us. How did He become sin ? by receiving our sin. How do we become righteous? by receiving His righteousness. His righteousness was "imputed" to us. Romans 5. by one mans sin we were all made sinners.... sinners are sinners because of Adams sin. we were in that place of sin., needing to be born again.
by ONE mans obedience (Jesus) many are made righteous. wowzo These are some of the amazing doctrines of grace I've heard and read this year. Romans 5:19-21
For just as by one man's disobedience (failing to hear, heedlessness and carelessness) the many were constituted sinners, so by one Man's obedience the many will be constituted rigtheous (made acceptable to God brought into right standing with Him
20 But then Law came in, (only) to expand and increase the trespass (making it more apparent and exciting opposition) But where sin increased and abounded, grace (God's unmerited favor) has surpassed it and increased the more and superabounded.
21. So that (just) as sin has reigned in death, (so) grace (His unearned and undeserved favor) might reign also through righteousness (right standing with God) which issues in eternal life through Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One) our Lord.
Amplified BibleThe warfare is bringing our thoughts 'to' looking at the obedience of Christ... not looking at our obedience. Unless we are dead to the condemnation of sin we will not have the power not to sin. It is then we are empowered to sin no more when we understand what the grace of God has done in sending Jesus who took all the condemnation and guilt of sin ONCE and for all. Law produces condemnation. So the devil has succeeded to put it into our heads that grace is dangerous and law is good. The law is the strength of sin.
Our obedience does not produce righteousness. It is a gift given by the death of Jesus on the cross. Amen!!
Ok now that Christmas is over (hope you all had a wonderful day) - ding! - let the boxing begin!
1 Timothy 4:1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
Pretty clear here... unless the Holy Spirit lies. Some people in the faith will abandon it to follow after deceiving spirits and demons. Can't get more black and white than this. If the Holy Spirit says it's going to happen, then it's going to happen and you can't twist it into not happening.
2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.
Again...one does not need to twist this to understand it. The teachings of the deceiving spirits and demons will come thru hypocritical liars, who forbid people from partaking of the good things God created for those who believe.
*
IT'S GOING TO HAPPEN. THE HOLY SPIRIT DOES NOT LIE!
The debate is in how it will happen. No amount of sinful works is going to make it happen. You can't work your way in or out of heaven.
Let me say that again: It is totally impossible to work your way into heaven - and it is just as much, totally impossible to work your way out of heaven.
The one, the ONLY, the solely unique way it is ever going to happen is by following lying demons and their mouthpieces who will lead you away from believing in God's truths. Remember - belief and disbelief are not acts of works. They are the one, the only, the solely unique way to get yourself into salvation and apostasy.
Again, for the vast majority of us here it's a moot subject. Yet for the very few who may fall into this trap, they need to know the rule and the consequences. You can't tell people that they can tell God to kiss off and not be held accountable for it.
*
OSAS is not an invitation to sin. It is an invitation to disbelieve.
1 Timothy 4:1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
Pretty clear here... unless the Holy Spirit lies. Some people in the faith will abandon it to follow after deceiving spirits and demons. Can't get more black and white than this. If the Holy Spirit says it's going to happen, then it's going to happen and you can't twist it into not happening.
2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.
Again...one does not need to twist this to understand it. The teachings of the deceiving spirits and demons will come thru hypocritical liars, who forbid people from partaking of the good things God created for those who believe.
*
IT'S GOING TO HAPPEN. THE HOLY SPIRIT DOES NOT LIE!
The debate is in how it will happen. No amount of sinful works is going to make it happen. You can't work your way in or out of heaven.
Let me say that again: It is totally impossible to work your way into heaven - and it is just as much, totally impossible to work your way out of heaven.
The one, the ONLY, the solely unique way it is ever going to happen is by following lying demons and their mouthpieces who will lead you away from believing in God's truths. Remember - belief and disbelief are not acts of works. They are the one, the only, the solely unique way to get yourself into salvation and apostasy.
Again, for the vast majority of us here it's a moot subject. Yet for the very few who may fall into this trap, they need to know the rule and the consequences. You can't tell people that they can tell God to kiss off and not be held accountable for it.
*
OSAS is not an invitation to sin. It is an invitation to disbelieve.
I had never gave much thought about OSAS before I came on CC. I view it as the love and grace and mercy of God towards those He loves dearly. I see it as an understanding of the character and motive of God towards us. I see it as trusting in His word.
OSAS is not an invitation to sin. It is an invitation to trust in the Lord Jesus Christ who lives inside of you for all things in your life. The more you see the beauty and love that Jesus has for us - the more you fall in love with Him.
The word "apostasy" is used a lot and as my brother showed it has to do with men putting their rules on you about marrying, foods to eat..etc.
I looked up apostasy and it means to "fall away" from the faith.....and here is the greek word being used by Paul.."apostasy" is defined here by Paul
1 Timothy 4:1-5 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away ( apostesontai ) from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
[SUP]2 [/SUP] by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,
[SUP]3 [/SUP] men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude;
[SUP]5 [/SUP] for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.
What is going to cause this "falling away" ( apostasy )...people who forbid others to marry...and not to eat certain foods...why is this departing from the faith?...it's in verse 3, 4 and 5.
verse 3 = which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. It's in knowing who you are in Christ - who is the truth and the faith.
...this not marrying and not eating certain foods to keep yourself "separated" from others..is a form of self-effort and reliance on a D.I.Y. self-righteousness/holiness mindset.
This is "departing from the faith - apostasy"....... people creating their own righteousness/holiness through their works of the flesh by self-effort...
It has the "appearance " of good but it denies the power to effect real change ...which is Christ in us and His life.
.. man-made religion denying the finished work of our Lord Jesus Christ.
OSAS is not an invitation to sin. It is an invitation to trust in the Lord Jesus Christ who lives inside of you for all things in your life. The more you see the beauty and love that Jesus has for us - the more you fall in love with Him.
The word "apostasy" is used a lot and as my brother showed it has to do with men putting their rules on you about marrying, foods to eat..etc.
I looked up apostasy and it means to "fall away" from the faith.....and here is the greek word being used by Paul.."apostasy" is defined here by Paul
1 Timothy 4:1-5 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away ( apostesontai ) from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
[SUP]2 [/SUP] by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,
[SUP]3 [/SUP] men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude;
[SUP]5 [/SUP] for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.
What is going to cause this "falling away" ( apostasy )...people who forbid others to marry...and not to eat certain foods...why is this departing from the faith?...it's in verse 3, 4 and 5.
verse 3 = which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. It's in knowing who you are in Christ - who is the truth and the faith.
...this not marrying and not eating certain foods to keep yourself "separated" from others..is a form of self-effort and reliance on a D.I.Y. self-righteousness/holiness mindset.
This is "departing from the faith - apostasy"....... people creating their own righteousness/holiness through their works of the flesh by self-effort...
It has the "appearance " of good but it denies the power to effect real change ...which is Christ in us and His life.
.. man-made religion denying the finished work of our Lord Jesus Christ.
The bible is very clear
If you are led by the spirit you are not under law galatians5:18
Many liken themselves to the person of romans chapter seven who was a slave to the flesh rather than able to follow after the spirit.
Could be because they don't understand grace, but for those who believe they do:
Jesus said:
If you were blind you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you see your guilt remains john 9:41
If you are led by the spirit you are not under law galatians5:18
Many liken themselves to the person of romans chapter seven who was a slave to the flesh rather than able to follow after the spirit.
Could be because they don't understand grace, but for those who believe they do:
Jesus said:
If you were blind you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you see your guilt remains john 9:41