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“Confronting the Error of Hyper-Grace” – a response to Michael Brown
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In one sense we do save ourselves. Jesus says believe in me, obey my commandments, repent.
These are all actions we have to do. Jesus says we will become like Him.
Now in all of this Jesus is saving us. He is throwing us the life ring which we must grab hold of.
Imagine you are dying from immune over response. Someone throws you a syringe full of adrenaline and says inject this.
If you do not you die, if you do, you live. They have saved you, but you still had to apply the drug.
This is you calling this own works, which is rubbish. These are the works God gave us to do from the beginning of time.
You hate the idea God is saving you to change.
Salvation is dependent upon you applying the drug. It is hard to put it another way. Unless you get up and walk as a child of God, you are not one.
These are all actions we have to do. Jesus says we will become like Him.
Now in all of this Jesus is saving us. He is throwing us the life ring which we must grab hold of.
Imagine you are dying from immune over response. Someone throws you a syringe full of adrenaline and says inject this.
If you do not you die, if you do, you live. They have saved you, but you still had to apply the drug.
This is you calling this own works, which is rubbish. These are the works God gave us to do from the beginning of time.
You hate the idea God is saving you to change.
Salvation is dependent upon you applying the drug. It is hard to put it another way. Unless you get up and walk as a child of God, you are not one.
E
Thats law, not grace
it sounds good. but all it is is more self righteous living thinking you are doing Gods will.
Jesus came because we can not save ourselves.
We only obey him BECAUSE he saved us, He does not save us because we obey him,
we can not obey him in a way we could ever deserve or warrant salvation. On our best day, we deserve hell.
until you realize that, sadly, you will never understand why I believe the way I do.
it sounds good. but all it is is more self righteous living thinking you are doing Gods will.
Jesus came because we can not save ourselves.
We only obey him BECAUSE he saved us, He does not save us because we obey him,
we can not obey him in a way we could ever deserve or warrant salvation. On our best day, we deserve hell.
until you realize that, sadly, you will never understand why I believe the way I do.
Peter my brother..
..the reason I close my mind to what you are saying is that your whole premise to begin with is flawed. Doing righteous deeds do not make one righteous...only Jesus' blood does that. There are fruits of righteousness but those stem from the life of Christ is us.
When people as an example say "God told me to divorce my spouse because He has a better one for me"..I do not listen to them no matter how much they want to " philosophize "...you use philosophy to derail the truth of the finished work of Christ. No amount of self-effort to make oneself righteous or holy nor self-performance is part of the gospel of the grace of Christ.
So, the reality is. I will not even for an hour consider your philosophies nor your religious traditions.
Here is what Paul did when confronted with self-effort and people wanting to put others under that yoke..
Galatians 2:4-5 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] But it was because of the false brethren secretly brought in, who had sneaked in to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, in order to bring us into bondage.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you.
( I am not saying you are a false brother..I'm using this to show that Paul didn't give in at all to people trying to ADD to the gospel of Christ. )
That's why Paul said ..
"See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.
The above is what I am doing concerning your posts.
I bless you.....
..the reason I close my mind to what you are saying is that your whole premise to begin with is flawed. Doing righteous deeds do not make one righteous...only Jesus' blood does that. There are fruits of righteousness but those stem from the life of Christ is us.
When people as an example say "God told me to divorce my spouse because He has a better one for me"..I do not listen to them no matter how much they want to " philosophize "...you use philosophy to derail the truth of the finished work of Christ. No amount of self-effort to make oneself righteous or holy nor self-performance is part of the gospel of the grace of Christ.
So, the reality is. I will not even for an hour consider your philosophies nor your religious traditions.
Here is what Paul did when confronted with self-effort and people wanting to put others under that yoke..
Galatians 2:4-5 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] But it was because of the false brethren secretly brought in, who had sneaked in to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, in order to bring us into bondage.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you.
( I am not saying you are a false brother..I'm using this to show that Paul didn't give in at all to people trying to ADD to the gospel of Christ. )
That's why Paul said ..
"See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.
The above is what I am doing concerning your posts.
I bless you.....
S
Thx, willie, those guys did a beautiful job!
That was Really inspiring. God bless you.
I regret being so tentative in times past,
and the turning back is a terrible thing.....
I can only thank Jesus for His long-suffering towards me,
but I ain't recommending anybody sees that as a way
to bet or play games/test God's grace and goodness.
It only brings shame/regret/loss, and He is SO good,
He is worthy of all our praise and devotion.
And salvation IS of works.....ALL HIS!!!
Thank you, Jesus!
Jesus paid it all...all to Him I owe.
Sin had left a crimson stain,
HE (He, Jesus, our Lord God and Saviour, He)
Washed it white as snow!!! Hallelujah,
Merry Christmas to you coming soon!
That was Really inspiring. God bless you.
I regret being so tentative in times past,
and the turning back is a terrible thing.....
I can only thank Jesus for His long-suffering towards me,
but I ain't recommending anybody sees that as a way
to bet or play games/test God's grace and goodness.
It only brings shame/regret/loss, and He is SO good,
He is worthy of all our praise and devotion.
And salvation IS of works.....ALL HIS!!!
Thank you, Jesus!Jesus paid it all...all to Him I owe.
Sin had left a crimson stain,
HE (He, Jesus, our Lord God and Saviour, He)
Washed it white as snow!!! Hallelujah,
Merry Christmas to you coming soon!
Here is a great article on repentance as it is in the New Covenant...it's different then what we were taught with some of our religious traditions.
Why Repentance is like Football – Escape to Reality
Why Repentance is like Football – Escape to Reality
So it is obvious you have redefined repentance, as if repentance is taught that it saves you, rather than it is an expression of sadness over the harm and evil you have done.
Why should we repent? Because God is going to judge us for our sin if we do not. Now he may relent if we repent, but he also may not. There is no guarantee. This has actually nothing to do with God but admitting the behaviour is wrong.
Now in preaching (hyper grace) this has been turned into just changing your mind. As this has no meaning I cannot understand the concept. It sounds more like a way of denying you need to repent.
It also appears many here feel they sin everyday, and constantly are changing their mind. Either they know nothing about God or they are truly defining sin wrongly.
As I have stated before, it appears people have created hyper-law, an advanced form of failure which has no written references but is 100% about self-condemnation. Does God stand before you and say "Good and faithful servant" or rather evil doer go from my sight. If you feel evil doer, write out the sins you feel justify this rejection.
Then go the law of God, and mark your sense of self condemnation against Gods list. I am sure you will find you are not an evil doer at all, but have been convinced by the enemy you are not worthy of being called righteous, a Son of God.
If you find sin in your heart, confess it, and ask the Lord to forgive you, and forgive those whose actions or situation caused such a response. This is walking in righteousness.
Jesus said of the pharisees
Has not Moses given you the law? Yet not one of you keeps the law.
John 7:19
For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matt 5:20
The problem I found many years ago keeping the law is not difficult, knowing what it is to love another is impossible.
This was until Jesus showed me what love really was.
Now this appears to be what you are trying to say, but without righteousness, which is life without light or salt.
And when faced with real change, all I hear is this is works. So from this I can only conclude you actually have nothing but denial of where you are or what state your hearts are really in.
Why should we repent? Because God is going to judge us for our sin if we do not. Now he may relent if we repent, but he also may not. There is no guarantee. This has actually nothing to do with God but admitting the behaviour is wrong.
Now in preaching (hyper grace) this has been turned into just changing your mind. As this has no meaning I cannot understand the concept. It sounds more like a way of denying you need to repent.
It also appears many here feel they sin everyday, and constantly are changing their mind. Either they know nothing about God or they are truly defining sin wrongly.
As I have stated before, it appears people have created hyper-law, an advanced form of failure which has no written references but is 100% about self-condemnation. Does God stand before you and say "Good and faithful servant" or rather evil doer go from my sight. If you feel evil doer, write out the sins you feel justify this rejection.
Then go the law of God, and mark your sense of self condemnation against Gods list. I am sure you will find you are not an evil doer at all, but have been convinced by the enemy you are not worthy of being called righteous, a Son of God.
If you find sin in your heart, confess it, and ask the Lord to forgive you, and forgive those whose actions or situation caused such a response. This is walking in righteousness.
Jesus said of the pharisees
Has not Moses given you the law? Yet not one of you keeps the law.
John 7:19
For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matt 5:20
The problem I found many years ago keeping the law is not difficult, knowing what it is to love another is impossible.
This was until Jesus showed me what love really was.
Now this appears to be what you are trying to say, but without righteousness, which is life without light or salt.
And when faced with real change, all I hear is this is works. So from this I can only conclude you actually have nothing but denial of where you are or what state your hearts are really in.
E
Oh boy, who told you this. This is not repentance at all.. No greek speaking person in Jesus day would have thought this, this is a relgeous way of thinking things
Repent means to turn around change directions, to change ones mind..
A person can not come to true faith in christ apart from repenting. They may believe in Jesus, Believe in God. and even believe in hell.
BBut as james said, even demons believe this, what good is belief if your faith is dead? It is useless.
What is the spiritual problem hyper-grace is trying to deal with?
It appears repentance was thought of as salvation, so if you felt bad about your behaviour you were saved.
But this has never been the gospel. The gospel is believing Jesus is the Son of God, and loved us so much he came to show us his nature in human form. He was prepared to take the worst sins we could throw at him and die as a result and not hold it against us. It is this love that transforms us if we see it and obediently put into action His words.
Now as a christian it is easy to say I do not break the commandments. It is much harder to say I actually love my fellow believers and my enemies. I would say unless Jesus has changed and taught you it is impossible.
But how many here know what loving your enemy actually is I wonder? Is it a sin if you do, or a work in progress?
Many generations of christians have stalled at this ideal.
Now without Jesus's love in my life I could do nothing, so this whole language used against me I find odd.
I think you must be very new to the real spiritual hard ball.
It appears repentance was thought of as salvation, so if you felt bad about your behaviour you were saved.
But this has never been the gospel. The gospel is believing Jesus is the Son of God, and loved us so much he came to show us his nature in human form. He was prepared to take the worst sins we could throw at him and die as a result and not hold it against us. It is this love that transforms us if we see it and obediently put into action His words.
Now as a christian it is easy to say I do not break the commandments. It is much harder to say I actually love my fellow believers and my enemies. I would say unless Jesus has changed and taught you it is impossible.
But how many here know what loving your enemy actually is I wonder? Is it a sin if you do, or a work in progress?
Many generations of christians have stalled at this ideal.
Now without Jesus's love in my life I could do nothing, so this whole language used against me I find odd.
I think you must be very new to the real spiritual hard ball.
I am staggard at your arrogance. Here is wikipedia definition of the word repentance
Repentance, which literally means to turn, is the activity of reviewing one's actions and feeling contrition or regret for past wrongs.
It generally involves a commitment to personal change and the resolve to live a more responsible and humane life. The practice of repentance plays an important role in the soteriological doctrines of the world's major religions where it is considered necessary for the attainment of salvation.
Now you can lie about language but it is pointless. It saddens me that you would lie, because that is a sin.
How can I have any respect for you if you resort to such strategies. It makes the whole basis of where you stand irrelevant.
Repentance, which literally means to turn, is the activity of reviewing one's actions and feeling contrition or regret for past wrongs.
It generally involves a commitment to personal change and the resolve to live a more responsible and humane life. The practice of repentance plays an important role in the soteriological doctrines of the world's major religions where it is considered necessary for the attainment of salvation.
Now you can lie about language but it is pointless. It saddens me that you would lie, because that is a sin.
How can I have any respect for you if you resort to such strategies. It makes the whole basis of where you stand irrelevant.
We do not base our definitions on Wikipedia. The word "repent" is not even the bible as defined there..The word repent come from the latin word penance . Religious people "defined" repent in order to get the people to do what they wanted n the catholic church...namely money and strict obedience ..
The Greek word for repent (metanoeo) is similar and both words are derived from the Greek word for mind (nous). So to repent is to change your mind. Nothing more, nothing less.
re·pent
verb
verb: repent; 3rd person present: repents; past tense: repented; past participle: repented; gerund or present participle: repenting
feel or express sincere regret or remorse about one's wrongdoing or sin.
"the priest urged his listeners to repent"
[TABLE="class: vk_tbl vk_gy"]
[TR]
[TD="class: lr_dct_nyms_ttl"]synonyms:[/TD]
[TD]feel remorse, regret, be sorry, rue, reproach oneself, be ashamed, feel contrite; Morebe penitent, be remorseful, be repentant
"the senator claims to have repented"
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Origin
Middle English: from Old French repentir, from re- (expressing intensive force) + pentir (based on Latin paenitere ‘cause to repent’).
The Greek word for repent (metanoeo) is similar and both words are derived from the Greek word for mind (nous). So to repent is to change your mind. Nothing more, nothing less.
re·pent
verb
verb: repent; 3rd person present: repents; past tense: repented; past participle: repented; gerund or present participle: repenting
feel or express sincere regret or remorse about one's wrongdoing or sin.
"the priest urged his listeners to repent"
[TABLE="class: vk_tbl vk_gy"]
[TR]
[TD="class: lr_dct_nyms_ttl"]synonyms:[/TD]
[TD]feel remorse, regret, be sorry, rue, reproach oneself, be ashamed, feel contrite; Morebe penitent, be remorseful, be repentant
"the senator claims to have repented"
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
- view or think of (an action or omission) with deep regret or remorse.
"Marian came to repent her hasty judgment"
- archaic
feel regret or penitence about.
"I repent me of all I did"
Origin
Middle English: from Old French repentir, from re- (expressing intensive force) + pentir (based on Latin paenitere ‘cause to repent’).