“Confronting the Error of Hyper-Grace” – a response to Michael Brown

[royalscot]

Yes Jesus died for all our sins. Past, present and future, no righteousness by keeping the law. Wonderful!

But that doesn't mean you are free not to say sorry when you err
That doesn't give you the right not to ask forgiveness when you turn away from looking to your saviour and commit what we term wilfull deliberate sin.
That doesn't give you the right to have no conscience when you grieve the holy spirit by such sin.

There are consequences to following after the flesh rather than the spirit. If you have been truly born again you will make yourself miserable by doing so, for God will not be mocked

And the christian life is not always was and dandy because Jesus died for your sins.
Trials temptations, persecutions will all be yours if you are a true follower of Christ.

Easy believism is not biblical.
It is not just one big easy ride where the individual can abdicate all responsibility from themself because they lice by faith in Christ and the sanctification of the spirit

define sin if your free from law (gentile) again show err in reading in basic logos.

29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.
Galatians 3: By Faith, or by Works of the Law?

 

[Grace777x70]

I love that verse...Phil 2:12..I have the verse after that on my wedding ring. PHIL 2:13

"For it is God who is at work in youboth to will and to do of His good pleasure!!

Isn't it wonderful to know that it is God IN us that is giving us the "will" and the capability to "do" as well? Isn't our Lord awesome!!

Jesus is inside of us..in our new creation..our new man of the heart created in righteousness and holiness in Him..It's exciting!

What a great salvation and hope we have in Him!!!

It is an interesting proposition. If God forgives everything you do, your failings, your miss-understanding there is no bite in an argument because you are accepted.

Now in most arguments people have a real foundation built on a set of foundations.
It appears this is filtered bible verses without any desire to see anything from any other angle. This is what I call brainwashing.

I am sure grace7x777 cannot relate to this verse

Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling.
Phil 2:12

The old and new testament are full of prophets, followers of Jesus who died because of dishonour while following the Lord.
David even got angry when the ark was carried in appropriately and someone touched it because it was almost falling and were struck dead. God has not changed. Everyday people die at His will. Everyday people are condemned to Hell fire because they treat the things of God with no respect and live in constant sin.

I fear for the soul of any believer who walks such a road, because Gods grace goes only so far, and judgement falls.

Judas was very close to Jesus and still betrayed him. No christian can be seen as innocent and incapable of turning aside and betraying the very commitments and truths He laid on their hearts.

 

[royalscot]

It is an interesting proposition. If God forgives everything you do, your failings, your miss-understanding there is no bite in an argument because you are accepted.

Now in most arguments people have a real foundation built on a set of foundations.
It appears this is filtered bible verses without any desire to see anything from any other angle. This is what I call brainwashing.

I am sure grace7x777 cannot relate to this verse

Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling.
Phil 2:12

The old and new testament are full of prophets, followers of Jesus who died because of dishonour while following the Lord.
David even got angry when the ark was carried in appropriately and someone touched it because it was almost falling and were struck dead. God has not changed. Everyday people die at His will. Everyday people are condemned to Hell fire because they treat the things of God with no respect and live in constant sin.

I fear for the soul of any believer who walks such a road, because Gods grace goes only so far, and judgement falls.

Judas was very close to Jesus and still betrayed him. No christian can be seen as innocent and incapable of turning aside and betraying the very commitments and truths He laid on their hearts.

sin in a new covenant. how, again you err , grace dont need law, but the logos need to know, how the law is missing in the new covenant. agian jesus is back in heaven, when the new covenant started, so mixed up history only shows you err. etc

 

[PeterJens]

So repentance is saying you will stop sin (even though you do not) Excusing your sin and pride (I am not like the sinner and those greasy gracers( And saying, thanks for the cross Lord. You did your part. now let me do mine?

No thanks. that's not repentance, that's religion.

I am saddened by this response because it fails at the simplest level. Sin is like a fruit of a disfunctional heart.
Jesus is saying sin is the damage but we must get the heart right. If you do not desire to walk away from sin, you will never be free from it.

I have seen people create complex definitions about how to get right with God, when it is just about saying sorry.
Jesus desires a repentant broken heart that like a child wishes to start again.

Now I hear this condemnation now continually saying this is religion. But this is actually what we feel as children when our parents tell us off. We feel guilty and want to do the right thing, even though we are often incapable of doing this.

Now Jesus calls to commit our ways to him and follow in obedience. Through looking at the cross, understanding God died on the cross to save us, what love that is, how personal and infinite that expression of love is, we can become overcomers.

Now strangely this is almost what these hyper-grace people are preaching except you cannot change, there is nothing to learn in life other than do spiritual works, or maybe not even that. It is unclear how you can change other than a vague belief in change.

I got to say I do not understand the approach because it does not agree with the basics of relationships and emotional life.
For that reason alone I would junk it. All I have heared is contradictions.

We cannot be righteous, but we are righteous in Jesus. We must not sin, but we cannot stop sinning.
The law is not for us, but we have the law on our hearts so obey it, except we do not because we sin.

We are not in condemnation, but we will never know because we fail all the time and God is never pleased with us because we live always in sin. We need grace because the flesh causes us to come short.

 

[PeterJens]

See here is your problem .
You THINK you are righteous. (and you get mad because people call you a modern day Pharisee?? Now you know why)
According the God, You are not righteous. Righteousness is not irreverent, it is IMPOSSIBLE.
That's what Grace is, We are forgiven BECAUSE WE HAVE FALLEN SHORT OF GODS GLOour RY. We must be given Gods rightgeousness, This will make us right with god (justified) and start us on the way to sanctification.
There is no good in us, Until you realise this, Grace is meaningless to you. and you will never find it.

For me I realise the gap between us, the vast gulf. By your definition of righteousness, no one in all eternity will ever be righteous.

Sin is the crime, an action that shows breaking of Gods law. Now I could claim breathing is a sin unless I say "By Gods will" everytime because each breath drawn by itself is not acknowledging God, so is a sin of self works.

The pharisees made the mistake of interpreting the letter of the law and not its intent or precept. This was Jesus's criticism, they had no heart, no compassion or love for the people they condemned. Worse still the very crimes they accused others of commiting they did themselves.

It truly saddens me that you accuse me of hypocracy and sin yet cannot show me my sin or tell me where I am wrong.
I have shown you how you have added to Gods law to make it impossible for anyone to please God, and then dumped all this failure on Jesus, and saying you are forever righteous because God can never make you actually righteous here in the flesh.

That is your religion, it is not mine. You should have begun to realise you are being rejected from the fellowship of believers, and will form your own group.

But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah,
out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old,
from ancient times.
Micah 5:2

Jesus is the eternal King come to rule of Israel. How can this be if He is not the fulfillment of all prophecy and the law.
You seem incapable of seeing the truth of sacrifice, the religion of the temple was instituted by God because religion is not evil, people do sin and thereby are evil.

What you are preaching is what the world preaches, religion causes wars, rather than sinners doing sin cause wars.

There is only one light in the world, those who follow Jesus in obedience to His commands.
Jesus's words are eternal and cannot be overthrown. You are in rebellion against them and so are not part of His flock.

This is the simplest spiritual principle of them all. Walking in righteousness, simple love, forgiveness, kindness, grace, peace, truth, that I see in many places and in many lives is Gods way.

But though you do not know, you walk in judgmentalism and call people hypocrites and liars without any proof, so commiting the sin of slandering your neighbour or bearing false witness.

So before the Lord I hold this against you, you stand against Gods word and His people, doing the work of the enemy and spreading evil reports about following faith and meeting together in fellowship, repenting of sins and walking in humbleness before the Lord. This is a sad day.

 

[james57]

sin in a new covenant. how, again you err , grace dont need law, but the logos need to know, how the law is missing in the new covenant. agian jesus is back in heaven, when the new covenant started, so mixed up history only shows you err. etc

This is the covenant I will make with them after that time says the lord
I will write my laws in the minds
And place them on their hearts
Then he adds
Their sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more
Heb 10:16&17

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I am saddened by this response because it fails at the simplest level. Sin is like a fruit of a disfunctional heart.
Jesus is saying sin is the damage but we must get the heart right. If you do not desire to walk away from sin, you will never be free from it.

I have seen people create complex definitions about how to get right with God, when it is just about saying sorry.
Jesus desires a repentant broken heart that like a child wishes to start again.

Now I hear this condemnation now continually saying this is religion. But this is actually what we feel as children when our parents tell us off. We feel guilty and want to do the right thing, even though we are often incapable of doing this.

Now Jesus calls to commit our ways to him and follow in obedience. Through looking at the cross, understanding God died on the cross to save us, what love that is, how personal and infinite that expression of love is, we can become overcomers.

Now strangely this is almost what these hyper-grace people are preaching except you cannot change, there is nothing to learn in life other than do spiritual works, or maybe not even that. It is unclear how you can change other than a vague belief in change.

I got to say I do not understand the approach because it does not agree with the basics of relationships and emotional life.
For that reason alone I would junk it. All I have heared is contradictions.

We cannot be righteous, but we are righteous in Jesus. We must not sin, but we cannot stop sinning.
The law is not for us, but we have the law on our hearts so obey it, except we do not because we sin.

We are not in condemnation, but we will never know because we fail all the time and God is never pleased with us because we live always in sin. We need grace because the flesh causes us to come short.

No even sure how this responds to my post.

I was posting what I hear you say over and over, and asking if you thought that was repentance.

because that is what I hear from you and your kind.

Salvation is not eternal, it is not even secure, because it is not in Christ, it is how wel we do things,

We may be real good one time, and be ok, but then fall apart and fall back into sin, and not be ok with God, then repent, and again be ok with God, then fall apart again, and be out of fellowship with god

what we have to do is pray that we die when we are on our good upslope and righteous self. so we will be saved, and not on our backlsidden time, when we will have lost the salvation we so tirelessly worked for..


and this hypergrace lie, No one here teaches it, so stick to the topic please. Yes it is dangerous, but your gospel is just as dangerous.. '

both reject true repentance, and a trust in self.

 

[ladylynn]

I posted this on another thread but it also applies here. A very important thing to remember about 'Bible study' and relating with other Christians here is we are each sharing what we believe the Bible has said, how the Holy Spirit has taught us and how Jesus is working in our lives. But it's also about learning HOW to really READ what someone is sharing and not interject your own opinion about what someone is saying before you even READ the rest of it..,or hear them finish.


Not one person here in this thread who is defending grace has ever said "sin doesn't really matter because it can't jeopardize salvation" That is speaking with fork tongue. How many times i read someone attributing their ideas of what I believe to be what I actually believe. Very annoying.

Sin in a Christian's life gives satan an inroad to do all manner of confusion to them. Not only that but there is no joy or peace for the Christian who has a cavalier attitude toward sin because they would not be walking according to the truth. Carnal believers are described by Solomon in Ecclesiastes after he came back and sought after God again. But while he was carnal., he found all he did was vanity. He with held nothing from his flesh and the fruit of that was nothing mattered, nothing had meaning it was all vanity under the sun. He was not living under God.

People who do not live according to truth even find there is no meaning in life and many commit suicide. satan can cause such confusion in a Christians life when he/she walks from God. So please, do not say that because my emphasis is on Christ and His finished work and NOT on sin that I endorse sinning or am sinning.

Maybe it's just that 'many' here put the emphasis on sin instead of Christ and don't understand me and my emphasis of the gospel of grace and truth that Jesus brought.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

For me I realise the gap between us, the vast gulf. By your definition of righteousness, no one in all eternity will ever be righteous.

I must honestly ask this

How can you realise this, and think a person can ever be good enough to earn salvation (or bad enough to not earn salvtion)

Because that is what those who reject eternal security teach.

Sin is the crime, an action that shows breaking of Gods law. Now I could claim breathing is a sin unless I say "By Gods will" everytime because each breath drawn by itself is not acknowledging God, so is a sin of self works.

Actually sin is far greter than breaking Gods law given to moses. You can obey mosaci law and still be in sin,
The pharisees thought this also. Thats why they thought they were so righteous. Maybe this is why you think so to? (Again how can you believe what you believe without thinking this? it does not fit together.

The pharisees made the mistake of interpreting the letter of the law and not its intent or precept. This was Jesus's criticism, they had no heart, no compassion or love for the people they condemned. Worse still the very crimes they accused others of commiting they did themselves.

Yeah, Because they watered down Gods law. Which again, is what you have to do, and those like you. Or again, you could not believe the way you do.

It truly saddens me that you accuse me of hypocracy and sin yet cannot show me my sin or tell me where I am wrong.
I have shown you how you have added to Gods law to make it impossible for anyone to please God, and then dumped all this failure on Jesus, and saying you are forever righteous because God can never make you actually righteous here in the flesh.

oh, so it is me changing Gods law? And you have shown me,, please, can you show again. I would like to know how I have added to Gods law..

When you constantly preach I teach greasy grace and hyper grace..

Talk about a congtradiction.. WHich is it??

That is your religion, it is not mine. You should have begun to realise you are being rejected from the fellowship of believers, and will form your own group.

so now we have been relegated to strawman attacks.

But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah,
out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old,
from ancient times.
Micah 5:2

Jesus is the eternal King come to rule of Israel. How can this be if He is not the fulfillment of all prophecy and the law.
You seem incapable of seeing the truth of sacrifice, the religion of the temple was instituted by God because religion is not evil, people do sin and thereby are evil.

What you are preaching is what the world preaches, religion causes wars, rather than sinners doing sin cause wars.

Yep religion causes wars. I do not teach religion, I teach relationship..

Religion teaches God relates to me only according to the way I act. Not according to his love mercy and crace..

So who is it here that really teaches religion?

There is only one light in the world, those who follow Jesus in obedience to His commands.
Jesus's words are eternal and cannot be overthrown. You are in rebellion against them and so are not part of His flock.

This is the simplest spiritual principle of them all. Walking in righteousness, simple love, forgiveness, kindness, grace, peace, truth, that I see in many places and in many lives is Gods way.

I agree 100 %, His children WILL OBEY HIM, because he HAS EMPOWERED them, and he LEADS THEM. so they will never get to the poingt they were before they were saved.

Thus they can never lose salvation, because they did nnot do anything to gain it.

But you reject this, and then come at me saying I have changed the law?

But though you do not know, you walk in judgmentalism and call people hypocrites and liars without any proof, so commiting the sin of slandering your neighbour or bearing false witness.

So before the Lord I hold this against you, you stand against Gods word and His people, doing the work of the enemy and spreading evil reports about following faith and meeting together in fellowship, repenting of sins and walking in humbleness before the Lord. This is a sad day.

You teach salvation is not eternal. Thus you reject grace, an institute works in place of grace..

You need to go talk to yourself. because your the one rejecting the grace ond mercy of Chrit, Not me.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I posted this on another thread but it also applies here. A very important thing to remember about 'Bible study' and relating with other Christians here is we are each sharing what we believe the Bible has said, how the Holy Spirit has taught us and how Jesus is working in our lives. But it's also about learning HOW to really READ what someone is sharing and not interject your own opinion about what someone is saying before you even READ the rest of it..,or hear them finish.


Not one person here in this thread who is defending grace has ever said "sin doesn't really matter because it can't jeopardize salvation" That is speaking with fork tongue. How many times i read someone attributing their ideas of what I believe to be what I actually believe. Very annoying.

Sin in a Christian's life gives satan an inroad to do all manner of confusion to them. Not only that but there is no joy or peace for the Christian who has a cavalier attitude toward sin because they would not be walking according to the truth. Carnal believers are described by Solomon in Ecclesiastes after he came back and sought after God again. But while he was carnal., he found all he did was vanity. He with held nothing from his flesh and the fruit of that was nothing mattered, nothing had meaning it was all vanity under the sun. He was not living under God.

People who do not live according to truth even find there is no meaning in life and many commit suicide. satan can cause such confusion in a Christians life when he/she walks from God. So please, do not say that because my emphasis is on Christ and His finished work and NOT on sin that I endorse sinning or am sinning.

Maybe it's just that 'many' here put the emphasis on sin instead of Christ and don't understand me and my emphasis of the gospel of grace and truth that Jesus brought.

I think the other issue is the definition of sin, if you have a wrong defenition of what sin is, you will not realise its true danger and destruction it can cause, and can be fooled into thinking your not in any danger. your ok, because you do not sin like the sinner does.

Sin is a mental attitude, I can obey the law completely and be in sin, because my attitude or motivation behind my actions is what the root of the issue is..

 

[ladylynn]

I think the other issue is the definition of sin, if you have a wrong defenition of what sin is, you will not realise its true danger and destruction it can cause, and can be fooled into thinking your not in any danger. your ok, because you do not sin like the sinner does.

Sin is a mental attitude, I can obey the law completely and be in sin, because my attitude or motivation behind my actions is what the root of the issue is..

It's a revelation of God's love for us and His wish to be in a relationship with us. We could not make that possible so He sent His Son to do what we could not., and Jesus did it perfectly. The focus is on God's seeking to reconcile us to Himself. We are already condemned the Bible says. The Good News is Jesus came and now we are no longer condemned. The focus is on Christ., not our sin. It was our sin that separated us from God and now because of Christ and HIS power over sin, we are no longer separated from God.

This is great news! Why do people want to talk about sin and where we used to be and not where Jesus has put us?? Any message that magnifies Jesus above all things including my self and sin that is what I want to hear. It is the message of RECONCILIATION so we can be in relationship with the Father. He is for us He is not against us.


s

 

[PeterJens]

I must honestly ask this
How can you realise this, and think a person can ever be good enough to earn salvation (or bad enough to not earn salvtion)
Because that is what those who reject eternal security teach.

Ok. You say if I reject eternal security(OSAS) how can a person be good enough to earn salvation.

Let me turn the problem around. To walk in righteousness, to be a good person it is possible to start to believe you have arrived and it is you not Jesus who brought you here. The rich and wealthy often fall for this line.

Jesus warns us with the parable of the vine and abiding in Jesus. We are part of a greater whole, and our life comes from the love Jesus brings into everything. But you can walk away.

Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.
Luke 11:28

The whole gospel is about hearing the word and putting it into action. It is about becoming a member of the Kingdom of Heaven. Once in the Kingdom it cannot be taken away from you, but you have to have walked the road and become a member. It is about change and transformation.

You believe all that is needed is to get to the gate, and stay there. This is a lie, and the hearts of those who do this will grow cold and empty. I know because I have walked this road, yet in many ways I have far to go.

Do you believe God calls us to have the same emotional life on the surface to that which is in our hearts?
Many from all theological positions do not know this reality in themselves. I am convinced until you know this truth, you have not truly touched the life of Jesus. He went to sinners because often they are honest about their failure and are looking for help. The self righteous know their life, yet are not willing to admit their internal failure and bow the knee.

So to suggest people at the gate without walking are saved if this is all they have, is like denying any of this reality is true.

 

[sydlit]

Merry Christmas is coming soon.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It's a revelation of God's love for us and His wish to be in a relationship with us. We could not make that possible so He sent His Son to do what we could not., and Jesus did it perfectly. The focus is on God's seeking to reconcile us to Himself. We are already condemned the Bible says. The Good News is Jesus came and now we are no longer condemned. The focus is on Christ., not our sin. It was our sin that separated us from God and now because of Christ and HIS power over sin, we are no longer separated from God.

This is great news! Why do people want to talk about sin and where we used to be and not where Jesus has put us?? Any message that magnifies Jesus above all things including my self and sin that is what I want to hear. It is the message of RECONCILIATION so we can be in relationship with the Father. He is for us He is not against us.


s

we need to talk about sin, But in specific ways and specific times

we do not need to discus sin with the world. Romans 1 says they already know they are sinners, and rightly judged becase of their sin, they just hide that fact, ut inside, they know it

we do not need to talk about sin to a body of believers, they know they have sinned, (the repented and realised sin caused separation)

but we do need to have discipleship groups or mentoring, where we can confess our personal sin issues with each other in a graceful non judgmental way. And read the word where it is not a 20 minute Simonette of hellfire an brimstone, but a categorical through the bible study, that when an issue comes up, it is dealt with then. Not just because the pastor thinks it needs discussed.

at the same time noting that discipline is instructed in the church for some sins, and we must do it Gods way, and not in a judgmental way.

 

[Grace777x70]

So,,the good news is..we "repent" constantly as we turn to God and the salvation He has provided in Christ. We look for Christ's life to change us.

Life in Christ is the higher law about rules like Moses 10 commandments. Moses will command you to not commit adultery..but only the "life of Christ inside us"....will teach us how to love our spouse..how to support them when needed..all this is not in the law of Moses....the law of the spirit of life in Christ teaches us that.


Romans 8:2 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

The "law" of life in Christ is where we live now...

It doesn't say to be sin-focused...navel-gazing at ourselves...looking at how awful we are...creating our own self-righteousness and our DIY holiness....this is what it means to deny Christ!

He has made us righteous and holy..He has given us a new life..a new heart..a new inner man...created in Christ Jesus in righteousness and true holiness. It is all about Him!

That is why Paul says to "set your mind on things above where Christ sits at the right hand of our Father"..the things that accompany salvation and who He has made us to be!

Let's not deny our Lord!

 

[PeterJens]

I think the other issue is the definition of sin, if you have a wrong defenition of what sin is, you will not realise its true danger and destruction it can cause, and can be fooled into thinking your not in any danger. your ok, because you do not sin like the sinner does.

Sin is a mental attitude, I can obey the law completely and be in sin, because my attitude or motivation behind my actions is what the root of the issue is..

You are very religious, really religious in the real sense. Do you know what psychology is? It is the study of the mind and how we come to behave in one way or another. It may have passed you by but as christians we are in the same game.

Sin has never been the real issue. Sin is just the damage caused by inappropriate needs and desires expressed out of frustration and lostness.

So I ask you, do you know you are loved? Really, really, loved, with a desire that overturns the universe yet keeps it completely in order and as it was? Now I can say, it took many years of walking to begin to see how deep this love is, and how profound, and how defensive I am, down to my core. But that is where Jesus goes to remake me.

Now you have confused sin with this disfunctionality, and made it religious. God is not judging who we are but calling us to straighten it out through obedience.

Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock.
Matt 7:24

This is self effort, it is a task we take on because He has commanded it. It changes us. It is not legalism, it is life.
So much of what you seem to say appears good, but over these foundational concepts you have missed the boat.

Following Jesus involves choice and self effort, which Jesus rewards.

Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
Matt 5:12

I find the concept of reward as being odd here, but from Jesus's side he just wants to emphasis how much he approves of this behaviour. We do not behave like this because of reward, but our Lord sees and gives in heaven.

Jesus has purchased a holy people who walk as He walked. Maybe you do not believe this, but that is His aim.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Ok. You say if I reject eternal security(OSAS) how can a person be good enough to earn salvation.

Let me turn the problem around. To walk in righteousness, to be a good person it is possible to start to believe you have arrived and it is you not Jesus who brought you here. The rich and wealthy often fall for this line.

Jesus warns us with the parable of the vine and abiding in Jesus. We are part of a greater whole, and our life comes from the love Jesus brings into everything. But you can walk away.

Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.
Luke 11:28

The whole gospel is about hearing the word and putting it into action. It is about becoming a member of the Kingdom of Heaven. Once in the Kingdom it cannot be taken away from you, but you have to have walked the road and become a member. It is about change and transformation.

No. The whole gospel is bout the fact we have walked contrary to God, We are Gods enemy, and we are separated from God because of our sinful nature,
But God so loved the world (us) he gave his only son, that whoever places their faith in him shall never die again, but has been born again to eternal life (john 3 the whole chapter)

You believe all that is needed is to get to the gate, and stay there. This is a lie, and the hearts of those who do this will grow cold and empty. I know because I have walked this road, yet in many ways I have far to go.

Yes, I have seen this also. as people get saved, then the ones who led them to Christ think their work is done and never follow up. (from what I am hearing, this was billy grahams major flaw) I know many churches who have done this, and it is sad, And I am not going to judge if these people are saved or not. when it was the church who failed them and did nt show them how, and not their fault. If they WERE saved, then God will keep his promise. if they were not. then God has no promise to keep. He knows their heart not me.

But for the most part. this is not what happens. What you find is real change, real growth, and real gratitude for what God has done.

The amazing things I keep being told is you see nerds, bikers, valley girls, and people of different race and cultures all united, having fun, and praising God, and people come in, and say I do not know what you have, but I want it, can you share (people being drawn to the light)

People are not drawn to religion, they only gravitate their out of fear. (even if they deny this fear, it is the deep engrained natural thing to do if we believe there is a God and will be a judgment day)

Do you believe God calls us to have the same emotional life on the surface to that which is in our hearts?
Many from all theological positions do not know this reality in themselves. I am convinced until you know this truth, you have not truly touched the life of Jesus. He went to sinners because often they are honest about their failure and are looking for help. The self righteous know their life, yet are not willing to admit their internal failure and bow the knee.

So to suggest people at the gate without walking are saved if this is all they have, is like denying any of this reality is true.

See, you just spoke a contradiction.

You tech performance based, But then say God went to sinners because they are honest.

How can you be honest in a performance based system, Especially when the bible you are following tells you all these things which you must do. and you can not possibly obey them all..

All you have is fear.

God went to sinners because the righteous did not think they needed saved, they made it, they did not need the cross..

A sinner realizies his need of Christ and will never leave Christ, because he continues to see his need.

A self righteous person will not realise this, and eventually think he has made it.. and can easily fall into the trap of legalism, and thinking he has to earn his way.

 

[PeterJens]

Life in Christ is the higher law about rules like Moses 10 commandments.

The problem with your model is there is no obedience or need for practical outworking, you hold you have already arrived by supernatural transformation. This is a lie and a denial of biology or how humans work.

Humans have two systems in their lives.
1. Automatic reactions which have been learnt over time and become who we are.
2. Slower analytical processes which take in new information and create new conclusions

When a person is born again they have a direction set to the Lord, and words to guide them. Some of their automatic reactions are now set to the Lord, but most is their past history.

Over time they will reset their automatic processes through analytical study of the word, fellowship and listening to the Lord. It takes time and work, and much from their past will fight and contradict these principles. Until they have fought and won through they are not fully "in the Kingdom", but a partial work.

I do not know how far the Lord comes and intervenes, but he does constantly and guides us along this path.
I have given up judging myself because I do not have reference points other than to press on, and give glory to God.

Now these realities are realities, not invented or even open to argument. I had guessed at some of these principles years ago, but now I know how real they are, and how the gospel fits along with them.

So the language here is just miss-guided, unreal, and illusory. If your desire is to stay in darkness, then that is your choice, but the Lord desires you walk in the light as He is in the light. He calls us holy because of how we walk, in Jesus and His love. When you see your own child walking and laughing at how they are walking, do you say it is me walking and not them. Likewise Jesus gives us the rules, the power, the security, the peace, the future, the joy but we walk, out of our choice.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You are very religious, really religious in the real sense. Do you know what psychology is? It is the study of the mind and how we come to behave in one way or another. It may have passed you by but as christians we are in the same game.

Sin has never been the real issue. Sin is just the damage caused by inappropriate needs and desires expressed out of frustration and lostness.

So I ask you, do you know you are loved? Really, really, loved, with a desire that overturns the universe yet keeps it completely in order and as it was? Now I can say, it took many years of walking to begin to see how deep this love is, and how profound, and how defensive I am, down to my core. But that is where Jesus goes to remake me.

Lets see, God loves me no matter what, and unconditioanl love that does not end (agape in the greek)

Thats what I teach,

religion teach Gods love is conditional. As long as you walk with him he loves you, but if you walk away, God will let you go. he will not do as he promised you, and go after you. to bring you back home.

It teaches he will never leave nor forsake you, but you can leave him, ad he will let you go. Meaning in reality, he left you and di dnot do as he promised, and leave the whole flock to bring back home the one lost sheep. Who knows his voice, hears his voice and follows him every time.

which is what religion teaches

So yes, I know what love is,

Now you have confused sin with this disfunctionality, and made it religious. God is not judging who we are but calling us to straighten it out through obedience.

No religion makes sin religious.

Yes, God is judging who we are

In adam (the sinner) we die

In Christ (the righteous) we are made alive.

WHy are you trying to backpeddle?

Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock.
Matt 7:24

This speaks of the person who truly repented, and had a genuine faith in god

vs one who had a dead faith in God because they did not repent.

when will the religious realize this is a result of salvation, not a precondition to earn salvation.

This is self effort, it is a task we take on because He has commanded it. It changes us. It is not legalism, it is life.
So much of what you seem to say appears good, but over these foundational concepts you have missed the boat.

No self effort here, I could not believe in Grace if I thought it was self effort. I would believe in religion and legalism. because I would have to pat myself on the back as to how good I am, and not realise how wretched I am.

You obviously have not listened to me very long, You keep saying I teach and believe in things which are totally opposite of what I teach and believe

Following Jesus involves choice and self effort, which Jesus rewards.

Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
Matt 5:12

I find the concept of reward as being odd here, but from Jesus's side he just wants to emphasis how much he approves of this behaviour. We do not behave like this because of reward, but our Lord sees and gives in heaven.

Jesus has purchased a holy people who walk as He walked. Maybe you do not believe this, but that is His aim.

Following Jesus follows humility, and no effort. Jesus said my commands are not a burden.

If you have to make effort to obey God, you have truly not found his rest yet. and I must wonder, are you saved at all?

at this point, I can just find out your gospel. Are you teaching grace alone, or that salvation is not a real thing, but a religious term which can be gained and lost over and over again. and is not secure at all.

If you have the right gospel. then I need to help you realize who you are in Christ, and how to follow the spirit, to make obeying God little to no effort (in fact it becomes our natural self).

If your saying salvation can be lost. I have to show you your in danger of fire, because you have yet to repent.

 

[Grace777x70]

Colossians 2:6-8 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him,
[SUP]7 [/SUP] having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and establishedin your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.

The problem with your model is there is no obedience or need for practical outworking, you hold you have already arrived by supernatural transformation. This is a lie and a denial of biology or how humans work.

Humans have two systems in their lives.
1. Automatic reactions which have been learnt over time and become who we are.
2. Slower analytical processes which take in new information and create new conclusions

When a person is born again they have a direction set to the Lord, and words to guide them. Some of their automatic reactions are now set to the Lord, but most is their past history.

Over time they will reset their automatic processes through analytical study of the word, fellowship and listening to the Lord. It takes time and work, and much from their past will fight and contradict these principles. Until they have fought and won through they are not fully "in the Kingdom", but a partial work.

I do not know how far the Lord comes and intervenes, but he does constantly and guides us along this path.
I have given up judging myself because I do not have reference points other than to press on, and give glory to God.

Now these realities are realities, not invented or even open to argument. I had guessed at some of these principles years ago, but now I know how real they are, and how the gospel fits along with them.

So the language here is just miss-guided, unreal, and illusory. If your desire is to stay in darkness, then that is your choice, but the Lord desires you walk in the light as He is in the light. He calls us holy because of how we walk, in Jesus and His love. When you see your own child walking and laughing at how they are walking, do you say it is me walking and not them. Likewise Jesus gives us the rules, the power, the security, the peace, the future, the joy but we walk, out of our choice.