Catholic Heresy (for the record)

[Mec99]

[h=1]Ineffabilis Deus[/h] Apostolic Constitution of Pope Pius IX on the Immaculate Conception (December 8, 1854)



Now inasmuch as whatever pertains to sacred worship is intimately connected with its object and cannot have either consistency or durability if this object is vague or uncertain, our predecessors, the Roman Pontiffs, therefore, while directing all their efforts toward an increase of the devotion to the conception, made it their aim not only to emphasize the object with the utmost zeal, but also to enunciate the exact doctrine.[6] Definitely and clearly they taught that the feast was held in honor of the conception of the Virgin. They denounced as false and absolutely foreign to the mind of the Church the opinion of those who held and affirmed that it was not the conception of the Virgin but her sanctification that was honored by the Church. They never thought that greater leniency should be extended toward those who, attempting to disprove the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of the Virgin, devised a distinction between the first and second instance of conception and inferred that the conception which the Church celebrates was not that of the first instance of conception but the second. In fact, they held it was their duty not only to uphold and defend with all their power the Feast of the Conception of the Blessed Virgin but also to assert that the true object of this veneration was her conception considered in its first instant. Hence the words of one of our predecessors, Alexander VII, who authoritatively and decisively declared the mind of the Church: "Concerning the most Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God, ancient indeed is that devotion of the faithful based on the belief that her soul, in the first instant of its creation and in the first instant of the soul's infusion into the body, was, by a special grace and privilege of God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, her Son and the Redeemer of the human race, preserved free from all stain of original sin. And in this sense have the faithful ever solemnized and celebrated the Feast of the Conception."[7]

Romans 3:9-12
[SUP]9 [/SUP]For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one;
[SUP]11 [/SUP] There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one."


Romans 3:23
[SUP]23 [/SUP] for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God


Everybody is a sinner, even Mary! Mary was NEVER free from sin like you Catholics teach. Mary was born a sinner and died a sinner!


This is why today the Catholic Church is not the True Church because they teach the Doctrines of Satan as Truths from God.

 

[Mec99]

Jamie26301, you really need to read what the Catholic teach teaches before you open your mouth up and shove you foot in.

Read what your Popes have said and compare it to what the Holy Spirit says. Until then you will never have the Truth.


DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH
LUMEN GENTIUM
SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON NOVEMBER 21, 1964


16. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126) But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator.******* In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.****** Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, "Preach the Gospel to every creature",(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.

Muslims REJECT Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior! Muslims also REJECT that Jesus IS God!

But yet your Popes clearly says the Muslims are our Brothers in Christ!

This is just another bit of how the Catholic Church today has walked away from God to worship Satan.

 

[AceMichaels]

Jamie26301, you really need to read what the Catholic teach teaches before you open your mouth up and shove you foot in.

Read what your Popes have said and compare it to what the Holy Spirit says. Until then you will never have the Truth.


DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH
LUMEN GENTIUM
SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON NOVEMBER 21, 1964


16. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126) But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator.******* In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.****** Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, "Preach the Gospel to every creature",(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.

Muslims REJECT Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior! Muslims also REJECT that Jesus IS God!

But yet your Popes clearly says the Muslims are our Brothers in Christ!

This is just another bit of how the Catholic Church today has walked away from God to worship Satan.

I didn't see anywhere in this quote that Muslims are our brothers in Christ

 

[notuptome]

I didn't see anywhere in this quote that Muslims are our brothers in Christ

My brother in law the good catholic boy that he is being divorced and remarried in the church told me that one year at our thanksgiving dinner.

Ended our dinner conversation when I told him that Muslims deny Christ. Guess the priest never told him that.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Mec99]

The Catholic Church says the Muslims " along with us adore the one and merciful God".

Clearly the Catholic Church says the Muslims Adore the same God as we do. They say the Muslims profess to hold the Faith of Abraham. Abraham Worshiped Jesus, the I AM of the O.T.

The Muslims REJECT Jesus Christ. So how can the Pope of the Catholic claim Muslims worship the same God as we True Christians when the Muslims REJECT Jesus as their Lord and Savior?

Or could it be the Pope is saying that the Catholics do not accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior because they believe they are worshiping the same God the Muslims worship?

Either way, to say the Muslims are of the Abraham Faith is to say the Muslims are our brothers in Christ because Abraham Worshiped Jesus Christ.

See how the Catholic Church is running AWAY from Jesus to serve Satan!

 

[AceMichaels]

The Catholic Church says the Muslims " along with us adore the one and merciful God".

Clearly the Catholic Church says the Muslims Adore the same God as we do. They say the Muslims profess to hold the Faith of Abraham. Abraham Worshiped Jesus, the I AM of the O.T.

The Muslims REJECT Jesus Christ. So how can the Pope of the Catholic claim Muslims worship the same God as we True Christians when the Muslims REJECT Jesus as their Lord and Savior?

Or could it be the Pope is saying that the Catholics do not accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior because they believe they are worshiping the same God the Muslims worship?

Either way, to say the Muslims are of the Abraham Faith is to say the Muslims are our brothers in Christ because Abraham Worshiped Jesus Christ.

See how the Catholic Church is running AWAY from Jesus to serve Satan!

That's a rather twisted form of speculation. I will stick to the quote you posted. It has always been known and recognized that Muslims acknowledge the the God of Abraham.
Where the problem lies, as you so eloquently point out, is who Jesus Christ is. The pope knows fully well they do not accept Jesus Christ and therefore cannot call them brothers in Christ. Brothers, yes, afterall aren't we all brothers and sisters created by one God?
To clarify. The statement you quote does not mention Muslims as in Christ.
Popes have said Muslims are our Brothers, but have never said they are our brothers in Christ.
Pope Francis has never uttered these words you attribute to him.

Just do a google search and you will find I'm speaking the truth. (This is for the dear reader of this thread)

 

[notuptome]

That's a rather twisted form of speculation. I will stick to the quote you posted. It has always been known and recognized that Muslims acknowledge the the God of Abraham.
Where the problem lies, as you so eloquently point out, is who Jesus Christ is. The pope knows fully well they do not accept Jesus Christ and therefore cannot call them brothers in Christ. Brothers, yes, afterall aren't we all brothers and sisters created by one God?
To clarify. The statement you quote does not mention Muslims as in Christ.
Popes have said Muslims are our Brothers, but have never said they are our brothers in Christ.
Pope Francis has never uttered these words you attribute to him.

Just do a google search and you will find I'm speaking the truth. (This is for the dear reader of this thread)

Why would you want to be intentionally misleading if you are the head of an organization like romanism?

God said that sin separated man from God so those who have been redeemed are also separated from the unredeemed.

The demons also believe in the God of Abraham and His Son.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[AceMichaels]

Why would you want to be intentionally misleading if you are the head of an organization like romanism?

God said that sin separated man from God so those who have been redeemed are also separated from the unredeemed.

The demons also believe in the God of Abraham and His Son.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Who is misleading? And about what?
If you don't understand that God created everybody and they are your brothers and sisters, then I really can't help you. I thought that was Sunday School material taught to even the very young.

Do you think the Muslims are some alien race not created by God but somwhere on anothet planet, therefore and so forth construed that the beings cannot be our brothers or even our sisters? Oh the horror!!!!!
( Sorry, got carried away!!!)

The misleading for sure has been from a couple of posters who are not being truthful with their quotes from the Pope. They definitely are misleading the public here.

 

[Mec99]

I disagree with you AceMichaels. The Muslims may be our brothers because they are were born like we were, but they do not follow the same God we do!

The Muslims follow Allah, who IS Satan, and reject Jesus Christ who IS God! They believe Jesus was only a mere human only, not God.

What is very misleading is YOU AceMichaels! Trying to deceive people into thinking Muslims follow God! They REFUSE to follow God and they REFUSE to accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior!

I'm starting to get the hint that you AceMichaels are a false Christian. You need to realize and accept that the Muslims follow Allah and not God who we True Christians follow.

You have been deceived by Satan AceMichaels into believing Muslims follow the one and only True God. They do not follow God whom Abraham Worshiped!

You will be one of millions left behind when Jesus returns to call His True Children out of this World.

 

[Maynard]

Read this. All of it.

DO MUSLIMS WORSHIP THE SAME GOD AS CATHOLICS DO?

CCC 841, quoting the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Lumen Gentium 16, from Vatican II, declared:

The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.

Some will say this declaration does not indicate Muslims believe in the same God we do because it only says “Muslims… profess to hold the faith of Abraham,” not that they actually do. So what gives?

The Council fathers were certainly careful to say Muslims “profess…” but not that they "profess" to believe in one God. It says they "profess to hold the faith of Abraham." "The faith of Abraham” involves more than simply acknowledging that God is one. CCC 59-64 teaches that “the faith of Abraham” includes:

“The people descended from Abraham” who “would be the trustee of the promise made to the patriarchs, the chosen people, called to prepare for that day when God would gather all his children into the unity of the Church” (CCC 60).

The Catechism goes on to point out that the people who possess the true “faith of Abraham” include:

“the patriarchs, prophets, and certain other Old Testament figures” who “have been and always will be honored as saints in all the Church’s liturgical traditions” (CCC 61).

Paragraphs 63-64 in the Catechism continue:

Israel is the priestly people of God, “called by the name of the Lord,” and “the first to hear the world of God,” the people of ‘elder brethren’ in the faith of Abraham. (64) Through the prophets, God forms his people in the hope of salvation, in the expectation of a new and everlasting Covenant intended for all… a salvation which will include all the nations. Above all, the poor and humble of the Lord… as Sarah, Rebecca, Miriam, Deborah, Hannah, Judith, and Esther… The purest figure among them is Mary.

Muslims could hardly be included in this number.

However, it is a distortion to claim from this that Muslims do not truly believe in the one true God because it was clearly after having said Muslims “profess to hold the faith of Abraham,” that the Council fathers then declared: “… together with us they adore the one, merciful God…”

These are two distinct declarations:

1. [Muslims] profess to hold the faith of Abraham.

2. Together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day.

CCC 841 also references Vatican II's Declaration on the Relation of the Church to Non-Christian Religions, Nostra Aetate, 3, that makes the teaching of the Council perhaps even clearer:

The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even his inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God.

Once again, we see first the declaration that Muslims "adore the one God..." made without qualification. Then, the fathers say "Islam link itself" to Abraham. This is not saying there is a link; rather, it is saying Muslim make that link. Once again, we have two clearly distinct declarations.

Is the Muslim God Our God?

There are many things taught in Islam that are so radically opposed to what we believe as Catholic Christians, that some will say, "Well, perhaps they believe in one God, but the 'one God' they believe in is not the same God we believe in because, for example, the Koran teaches:

Women are inferior to men (Sura 4:34)

Men can, and even should, ‘beat’ their wives in some circumstances (Sura 4:34).

Belief in the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ is false (Sura 4:157-159).

Belief in the divinity of Christ is blasphemy (Sura 5:72).

Belief in Jesus Christ as ‘the Son of God’ is grave error (Sura 19:35; 10:68).

Muslims are commanded to ‘fight against’ Christians and all who disagree with them. Sura 9:29 says:

Fight those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which Allah and His Messenger have forbidden, nor follow the Religion of Truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgement of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

God wills moral as well as physical evil. In fact, Sura 37:94 says, ‘He [Allah] created you as well as what you do,’ whether good or evil.

‘God does not love the unbelievers’ (Sura 3:32).

And this is just to name a few areas of major disagreement. We could write volumes on the problems with Muslim doctrine.”

Many claim there is a point where errors regarding what “the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth” teaches become so far removed from the truth that it becomes necessary to say that God being spoken of is no longer "God" at all. My take is that as long as a person understands the basic metaphysical truth that God is “the one, merciful God,” then errors concerning what God has said, or what he has revealed about his inner life are simply errors about those things, not about God as the one, true God.

Some will argue that if someone presents, for example, their “God” as teaching the rape of small children to be okay, then that God is not God at all. And that, I would argue, is true. It could be argued that that "God" would suffer from a moral defect, and therefore, could not be God.

But even if it is possible for a person (or a faith, like Islam) to claim belief in the one true God, but so distort what God teaches that he (or it) ceases to truly believe in the “one true God" in reality, then, according to the Church, Islam has not reached that point in its errors.

Thus, we Catholics have to be careful to distinguish between the fact that Muslims believe in the one true God “living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,” and the fact that they get it wrong—profoundly wrong—when it comes to both who God has revealed himself to be in the New Testament, and what he has taught his people.

We pull no punches as Catholics when it comes to pointing out the errors of Islam. But we also need to begin by getting it right concerning the things about which we agree.

Ask a Saint – He Knows

Pope St. John Paul II strikes the balance beautifully, concisely, and without compromise between acknowledging what Muslims get right, and challenging where they go wrong, in his excellent book, Crossing the Threshhold of Hope. After pointing out that the Church has a “high regard for Muslims who worship one God, living and subsistent, merciful and omnipotent, the Creator of heaven and earth,” he then observes after reflecting on Islam and the Koran:

Whoever knows the Old and New Testaments, and then reads the Koran, clearly sees the process by which it completely reduces Divine Revelation. It is impossible not to note the movement away from what God said about Himself, first in the Old Testament through the Prophets, and then finally in the New Testament through His Son. In Islam all the richness of God's self-revelation, which constitutes the heritage of the Old and New Testaments, has definitely been set aside. Some of the most beautiful names in the human language are given to the God of the Koran, but He is ultimately a God outside of the World, a God who is only Majesty, never Emmanuel, God-with-us. Islam is not a religion of redemption. There is no room for the Cross and the Resurrection(p. 92).

St. John Paul first acknowledges the truth that Muslims get it right when they profess faith in one God. Then, and only then, does he point out they have it as wrong as wrong can be when it comes to what God has revealed to us in Scripture about who he is, and, I would add, what he asks of his people by way of his commandments.

Do Muslims Worship the Same God Catholics Do? | Catholic Answers

 

[AceMichaels]

I disagree with you AceMichaels. The Muslims may be our brothers because they are were born like we were, but they do not follow the same God we do!

The Muslims follow Allah, who IS Satan, and reject Jesus Christ who IS God! They believe Jesus was only a mere human only, not God.

What is very misleading is YOU AceMichaels! Trying to deceive people into thinking Muslims follow God! They REFUSE to follow God and they REFUSE to accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior!

I'm starting to get the hint that you AceMichaels are a false Christian. You need to realize and accept that the Muslims follow Allah and not God who we True Christians follow.

You have been deceived by Satan AceMichaels into believing Muslims follow the one and only True God. They do not follow God whom Abraham Worshiped!

You will be one of millions left behind when Jesus returns to call His True Children out of this World.

I'm sorry you feel this way after I exposed your errors. Look me up when you don't fly away! I'll explain why you are still here

 

[jamie26301]

The reason the Catholics insist Mary had to be without sin was to keep Jesus free from sin. See how the Catholics believe that God was powerless in keeping Jesus free from sin? The actually believe only Mary keep Jesus free from sin.

That doesn't equate worship.

And yet you say that is only my opinion!

And yes, to say it does mean worship IS your opinion, and representing of Protestant reasonings, not Catholic reasoning. In other words, a strawman.

I have many times seen Catholics on their knees in front of a Statue of Mary Praying to the Statue. I saw this all the time when i was growing up in the Catholic Church.

Yes, and kneeling before the pulpit the pastor preaches behind during the alter call couldn't be misinterpreted in the least.

The Catholic Church also teaches we become Justified by our WORKS!

And Jesus. Otherwise you have Pelagianism. Which is considered herasy pretty much throughout the WHOLE Church.

Read the Scriptures and see where God clearly says we are Justified by our Faith, not Works!

I have. James is not so clear, we are all aware and argue about it.

 

[AceMichaels]

That doesn't equate worship.

And yes, to say it does mean worship IS your opinion, and representing of Protestant reasonings, not Catholic reasoning. In other words, a strawman.


Yes, and kneeling before the pulpit the pastor preaches behind during the alter call couldn't be misinterpreted in the least.



And Jesus. Otherwise you have Pelagianism. Which is considered herasy pretty much throughout the WHOLE Church.


I have. James is not so clear, we are all aware and argue about it.

Very nice and well thought out! It really saddens me to see our brothers and sisters in Christ slandered the way I have seen on this thread.

 

[jamie26301]

Very nice and well thought out! It really saddens me to see our brothers and sisters in Christ slandered the way I have seen on this thread.

Thank you. It hurts me too. I've seen other Christians slandered in church, bible study, etc. Sat listening to my own beliefs they didn't know I had being misrepresented. Maddening, but at the same time leaving me depressed. What separates Christians, when it comes to brass tax, is not Scripture, and not even Jesus - it's dogma, on both (all) sides.

Closed Communion is probably one of the saddest examples of this. I understand the logic behind that - I used to defend it. But after being turned away from both Catholic and Lutheran Communions, because I didn't fit the mold on everything BESIDES the Lord (yeah, Jesus is just PART of it, lol), I have found my curiosity of open Communication becoming more and more a belief and conviction.

When I first came to this state, out here is LCMS territory (where I was from ELCA dominated the Lutheran mindset), I was excited, because for years I dreamed of being in a LCMS church. Never stepped in one, but listening to services and resources on the internet compelled me to align doctrinally. These doctrines I held fast to during my darkest days, and yes, adhering to Sola Scripture had a lot to do with the zeal for learning that got me through a difficult period in my life. And it served me well, for a while. But like anything, handled improperly, Scripture will cut you. How you use it matters just as much as picking it up in the first place.

Finally I got a chance to worship in a LCMS, which I frankly wasn't counting on ever happening (cause location). Wasn't as conservative in my viewpoints as I used to be. I knew they practiced closed Communion so I asked if there may be an exception, since I was here temporarily (at the time I was.) He said we needed to talk first, I figured that's fine. I expressed to him my beliefs of the Table which still reflects "in, with, and under" theology. So, I got all this Jesus and Sacrament stuff right, but I'm still unsure and searching to make a "stand" on women's roles and homosexuality... and that's why I was declined the Supper. Nothing to do with the Lord Himself.

It was about communing with "like-minded" believers, which is fine, I didn't argue with him, thanked him for listening... but, for a Christ-centered, Cross-focused approach to Scripture, it's interesting to me how selecting who to coummune with has nothing to do with Jesus or the Cross, or rather, that's just PART of being a like-minded Christian. Heck, I thought Jesus as the divine Son of God who died for our sins is pretty darn like-minded, being how disagreement on THAT would draw a line in the sand, but oh well.

So yeah, pulling Scriptures out of context, to "come out from among them [believers who don't think exactly like us, despite called to be one and unified by both Paul and Jesus]" as justification to alienate other believers, is probably one of the most hateful things one Christian can do to another - wield the same gift given by the same God against one another. Like it's not the same God because someone else reads side details diffrently. It's despicable, honestly.

Christians who have ever been denied the Lord's blessing or the comfort of the Table because of side issues that doesn't matter in any way to salvation, I think would probably feel differently about the fragments of the Body being a good thing, avoiding one*cough*lukewarm-ness and compromise by such. You can't just go into any church and be blessed or given the Sacraments for the sake of believing in the Lord - no, in many cases you gotta be part of the club.

Many Christians said they'd leave a church that condones homosexuality... I would leave a church that condones the dismissing or margailizing of other believers - believers who are not disturbing anyone, but just has a different political, I mean theological, view. I will not be a full fledged member or invest in a church that will turn away a believer from the Supper. Jesus offered JUDAS bread... I don't know where churches get off that they can make decisions that Jesus Himself didn't model.

Sorry, tanget over. I was once very conservative and extreme on this and that, but when you are in distress and you need a blessing or edification and you can't "just" go here or there because of transportation constraints... None of that avoidance of "compromise " matters. Homosexual/women/abortion/solas or no, etc leanings doesn't matter. Compassion has nothing to do with doctrine. We should all learn that, sometime.

 

[AceMichaels]

Thank you. It hurts me too. I've seen other Christians slandered in church, bible study, etc. Sat listening to my own beliefs they didn't know I had being misrepresented. Maddening, but at the same time leaving me depressed. What separates Christians, when it comes to brass tax, is not Scripture, and not even Jesus - it's dogma, on both (all) sides.

Closed Communion is probably one of the saddest examples of this. I understand the logic behind that - I used to defend it. But after being turned away from both Catholic and Lutheran Communions, because I didn't fit the mold on everything BESIDES the Lord (yeah, Jesus is just PART of it, lol), I have found my curiosity of open Communication becoming more and more a belief and conviction.

When I first came to this state, out here is LCMS territory (where I was from ELCA dominated the Lutheran mindset), I was excited, because for years I dreamed of being in a LCMS church. Never stepped in one, but listening to services and resources on the internet compelled me to align doctrinally. These doctrines I held fast to during my darkest days, and yes, adhering to Sola Scripture had a lot to do with the zeal for learning that got me through a difficult period in my life. And it served me well, for a while. But like anything, handled improperly, Scripture will cut you. How you use it matters just as much as picking it up in the first place.

Finally I got a chance to worship in a LCMS, which I frankly wasn't counting on ever happening (cause location). Wasn't as conservative in my viewpoints as I used to be. I knew they practiced closed Communion so I asked if there may be an exception, since I was here temporarily (at the time I was.) He said we needed to talk first, I figured that's fine. I expressed to him my beliefs of the Table which still reflects "in, with, and under" theology. So, I got all this Jesus and Sacrament stuff right, but I'm still unsure and searching to make a "stand" on women's roles and homosexuality... and that's why I was declined the Supper. Nothing to do with the Lord Himself.

It was about communing with "like-minded" believers, which is fine, I didn't argue with him, thanked him for listening... but, for a Christ-centered, Cross-focused approach to Scripture, it's interesting to me how selecting who to coummune with has nothing to do with Jesus or the Cross, or rather, that's just PART of being a like-minded Christian. Heck, I thought Jesus as the divine Son of God who died for our sins is pretty darn like-minded, being how disagreement on THAT would draw a line in the sand, but oh well.

So yeah, pulling Scriptures out of context, to "come out from among them [believers who don't think exactly like us, despite called to be one and unified by both Paul and Jesus]" as justification to alienate other believers, is probably one of the most hateful things one Christian can do to another - wield the same gift given by the same God against one another. Like it's not the same God because someone else reads side details diffrently. It's despicable, honestly.

Christians who have ever been denied the Lord's blessing or the comfort of the Table because of side issues that doesn't matter in any way to salvation, I think would probably feel differently about the fragments of the Body being a good thing, avoiding one*cough*lukewarm-ness and compromise by such. You can't just go into any church and be blessed or given the Sacraments for the sake of believing in the Lord - no, in many cases you gotta be part of the club.

Many Christians said they'd leave a church that condones homosexuality... I would leave a church that condones the dismissing or margailizing of other believers - believers who are not disturbing anyone, but just has a different political, I mean theological, view. I will not be a full fledged member or invest in a church that will turn away a believer from the Supper. Jesus offered JUDAS bread... I don't know where churches get off that they can make decisions that Jesus Himself didn't model.

Sorry, tanget over. I was once very conservative and extreme on this and that, but when you are in distress and you need a blessing or edification and you can't "just" go here or there because of transportation constraints... None of that avoidance of "compromise " matters. Homosexual/women/abortion/solas or no, etc leanings doesn't matter. Compassion has nothing to do with doctrine. We should all learn that, sometime.

Wow!!!! Thank you so much for sharing your story! I had posted way earlier about the men I work with and they do not fit the description being portrayed here. My Catholic brothers would be having a good laugh at this!!!

 

[fordman]

First off, I too would like to thank you jamie, being a non-Catholic, and having the courage of explaining to truth of the Catholic faith.

Now as far as Closed Communion goes in the Catholic faith, we suggest that it is not pride some may beleive that causes us to refuse communion to some non-Catholics, but rather humility. For 2000 years, nothing has been closer to the heart of the Church than the Body and Blood of our Lord. All of the Early Church Fathers talk about cherishing our Lord in the Eucharist, and countless early Christians gave their lives to guard its integrity.
The Eucharist is the most intimate expression of our faith. If we were to share it with a visitor, it would be like saying to someone who knocks on the door of our home, "come in, don't bother with the living room, come directly into the bedroom." The deepest intimacy is saved for the family. We feel that our Lord has made himself very vulnerable by coming in the form of bread and we have an obligation to protect him when he is vulnerable, just like Joseph protected Jesus when he was a baby and most vulnerable.

If you are not Catholic, we invite you to imagine yourself in our place. Pretend for a moment that you believed, with all the early Christians, that the Eucharist is truly the body and blood of Christ, and that you have been given a Biblical command to guard it. I think you would be hesitant to share it with someone who thinks it's just bread?

So you see jamie, to receive communion in our Church, you must affirm that you agree with the Church's teachings in all regards, especially the fact that Christ is REALLY PRESENT in the Eucharist, and that what you're receiving is no longer bread but the Body of Christ retaining the physical form of bread. That's a very difficult thing to accept, even for a lot of Catholics.

Once again, thanks!



Pax Christi

 

[notuptome]

Read this. All of it.

DO MUSLIMS WORSHIP THE SAME GOD AS CATHOLICS DO?

CCC 841, quoting the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Lumen Gentium 16, from Vatican II, declared:

The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.

Some will say this declaration does not indicate Muslims believe in the same God we do because it only says “Muslims… profess to hold the faith of Abraham,” not that they actually do. So what gives?

The Council fathers were certainly careful to say Muslims “profess…” but not that they "profess" to believe in one God. It says they "profess to hold the faith of Abraham." "The faith of Abraham” involves more than simply acknowledging that God is one. CCC 59-64 teaches that “the faith of Abraham” includes:

“The people descended from Abraham” who “would be the trustee of the promise made to the patriarchs, the chosen people, called to prepare for that day when God would gather all his children into the unity of the Church” (CCC 60).

The Catechism goes on to point out that the people who possess the true “faith of Abraham” include:

“the patriarchs, prophets, and certain other Old Testament figures” who “have been and always will be honored as saints in all the Church’s liturgical traditions” (CCC 61).

Paragraphs 63-64 in the Catechism continue:

Israel is the priestly people of God, “called by the name of the Lord,” and “the first to hear the world of God,” the people of ‘elder brethren’ in the faith of Abraham. (64) Through the prophets, God forms his people in the hope of salvation, in the expectation of a new and everlasting Covenant intended for all… a salvation which will include all the nations. Above all, the poor and humble of the Lord… as Sarah, Rebecca, Miriam, Deborah, Hannah, Judith, and Esther… The purest figure among them is Mary.

Muslims could hardly be included in this number.

However, it is a distortion to claim from this that Muslims do not truly believe in the one true God because it was clearly after having said Muslims “profess to hold the faith of Abraham,” that the Council fathers then declared: “… together with us they adore the one, merciful God…”

These are two distinct declarations:

1. [Muslims] profess to hold the faith of Abraham.

2. Together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day.

CCC 841 also references Vatican II's Declaration on the Relation of the Church to Non-Christian Religions, Nostra Aetate, 3, that makes the teaching of the Council perhaps even clearer:

The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even his inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God.

Once again, we see first the declaration that Muslims "adore the one God..." made without qualification. Then, the fathers say "Islam link itself" to Abraham. This is not saying there is a link; rather, it is saying Muslim make that link. Once again, we have two clearly distinct declarations.

Is the Muslim God Our God?

There are many things taught in Islam that are so radically opposed to what we believe as Catholic Christians, that some will say, "Well, perhaps they believe in one God, but the 'one God' they believe in is not the same God we believe in because, for example, the Koran teaches:

Women are inferior to men (Sura 4:34)

Men can, and even should, ‘beat’ their wives in some circumstances (Sura 4:34).

Belief in the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ is false (Sura 4:157-159).

Belief in the divinity of Christ is blasphemy (Sura 5:72).

Belief in Jesus Christ as ‘the Son of God’ is grave error (Sura 19:35; 10:68).

Muslims are commanded to ‘fight against’ Christians and all who disagree with them. Sura 9:29 says:

Fight those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which Allah and His Messenger have forbidden, nor follow the Religion of Truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgement of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

God wills moral as well as physical evil. In fact, Sura 37:94 says, ‘He [Allah] created you as well as what you do,’ whether good or evil.

‘God does not love the unbelievers’ (Sura 3:32).

And this is just to name a few areas of major disagreement. We could write volumes on the problems with Muslim doctrine.”

Many claim there is a point where errors regarding what “the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth” teaches become so far removed from the truth that it becomes necessary to say that God being spoken of is no longer "God" at all. My take is that as long as a person understands the basic metaphysical truth that God is “the one, merciful God,” then errors concerning what God has said, or what he has revealed about his inner life are simply errors about those things, not about God as the one, true God.

Some will argue that if someone presents, for example, their “God” as teaching the rape of small children to be okay, then that God is not God at all. And that, I would argue, is true. It could be argued that that "God" would suffer from a moral defect, and therefore, could not be God.

But even if it is possible for a person (or a faith, like Islam) to claim belief in the one true God, but so distort what God teaches that he (or it) ceases to truly believe in the “one true God" in reality, then, according to the Church, Islam has not reached that point in its errors.

Thus, we Catholics have to be careful to distinguish between the fact that Muslims believe in the one true God “living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,” and the fact that they get it wrong—profoundly wrong—when it comes to both who God has revealed himself to be in the New Testament, and what he has taught his people.

We pull no punches as Catholics when it comes to pointing out the errors of Islam. But we also need to begin by getting it right concerning the things about which we agree.

Ask a Saint – He Knows

Pope St. John Paul II strikes the balance beautifully, concisely, and without compromise between acknowledging what Muslims get right, and challenging where they go wrong, in his excellent book, Crossing the Threshhold of Hope. After pointing out that the Church has a “high regard for Muslims who worship one God, living and subsistent, merciful and omnipotent, the Creator of heaven and earth,” he then observes after reflecting on Islam and the Koran:

Whoever knows the Old and New Testaments, and then reads the Koran, clearly sees the process by which it completely reduces Divine Revelation. It is impossible not to note the movement away from what God said about Himself, first in the Old Testament through the Prophets, and then finally in the New Testament through His Son. In Islam all the richness of God's self-revelation, which constitutes the heritage of the Old and New Testaments, has definitely been set aside. Some of the most beautiful names in the human language are given to the God of the Koran, but He is ultimately a God outside of the World, a God who is only Majesty, never Emmanuel, God-with-us. Islam is not a religion of redemption. There is no room for the Cross and the Resurrection(p. 92).

St. John Paul first acknowledges the truth that Muslims get it right when they profess faith in one God. Then, and only then, does he point out they have it as wrong as wrong can be when it comes to what God has revealed to us in Scripture about who he is, and, I would add, what he asks of his people by way of his commandments.

Do Muslims Worship the Same God Catholics Do? | Catholic Answers

It is not enough to acknowledge one God you must believe in His Son. The blood of Christ makes the necessary atonement for sin. Without Christ there is no atonement and no salvation.

The pope can according to Romans chapter one change God into something he likes better but that does not change God.

God has according to Romans 11:32 concluded all in unbelief that He might have mercy upon all.

This apologetic only serves to condemn rome. I do appreciate your sincerity but the truth does not change because we find it uncomfortable or inconvenient.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[jamie26301]

First off, I too would like to thank you jamie, being a non-Catholic, and having the courage of explaining to truth of the Catholic faith.

You're welcome. It's a very interesting faith - I don't agree with all of it, but there are some aspects that I sympathize with more than Protestant perspectives on the same issue.

The Eucharist is the most intimate expression of our faith.

Yes. I certainly agree, which is why I don't agree with turning away others in faith - regardless of the particular church they affiliate with.

If we were to share it with a visitor,

Who is a visitor? Anyone not confirmed in that particular church? Closed Communion is ok if any church wants to practice that for themselves - but personally, I don't think it reflects the brother/sisterhood of the Body, of ALL believers, across both sides of the great divide over faith and works. And one way many get around this, I have seen, is to just accuse the others of not being "real" Christians, as we've seen on this thread.

it would be like saying to someone who knocks on the door of our home, "come in, don't bother with the living room, come directly into the bedroom." The deepest intimacy is saved for the family. We feel that our Lord has made himself very vulnerable by coming in the form of bread and we have an obligation to protect him when he is vulnerable, just like Joseph protected Jesus when he was a baby and most vulnerable.

That's interesting, I haven't heard it worked that way before. What I generally hear in Protestant churches for closed Communion (usually the more traditional, liturgical churches practice this - then not all of them. Lutheran Church Missouri Synod practices closed, the evil, liberal Evangelical Lutheran CHurch of America practices open)... the defense I generally hear is to prevent others from sinning against the Lord's Body, against taking the cup "unworthily." So they want you to be schooled before you take it. Which I understand, because even some churches that has open Communion will have posted for visitors to be please reconsider taking Communion if you're not a believer.

It's a church's right to practice closed, I just don't agree with it. I think agreeing on side issues would mean very little when a sister in Christ approaches in need for forgiveness and blessings. I think, I could be wrong, that side issues matter A LOT LESS to Christians who are persecuted daily, houses burned, bibles confiscated, property taken away, etc. I imagine when all you have is each other, to survive and spread the Gospel as effectively as you can, you HAVE to put aside those differences.

If you are not Catholic, we invite you to imagine yourself in our place. Pretend for a moment that you believed, with all the early Christians, that the Eucharist is truly the body and blood of Christ, and that you have been given a Biblical command to guard it. I think you would be hesitant to share it with someone who thinks it's just bread?

I understand: Catholics are not the only ones to practice closed Communion. In my opinion, anyone who is a brother or sister in Christ (not same denomination, but a believer) is family who shouldn't be turned away. I do not mean professing unbelievers, or just anyone. But if you confess and believe in the sinless life, death and Resurrection of our Lord for forgiveness of sins, and you have repented and received that forgiveness, you should be welcome. Again, my opinion.

Well, it's true many Protestants see the Supper as a memorial meal, and remembrance only, but not ALL, and I fit in that. I align myself more with the Lutheran stance, than Catholic, but both believe in the Real Presence - the difference is that Lutherans believe that in addition to the Presence, you are still holding bread and wine. Four elements, bread, body, blood, and wine, rather than the two of our Lord.

So you see jamie, to receive communion in our Church, you must affirm that you agree with the Church's teachings in all regards, especially the fact that Christ is REALLY PRESENT in the Eucharist,

Yes, I agree with that. The experience I described was with a Lutheran church, though I have been told that I couldn't receive Communion by a Catholic church for not being Catholic. I was living in a half-way house, no transportation, and walking over to this one church was all I was allowed to travel on my own. So you see, I didn't have ANY Supper, not because I wasn't a believer, but because I didn't fit the doctrinal mold. There was an ELCA in the area, and the pastor did bring me Communion one time.

But that's what I'm talking about. In some situations, you will have a believer who can't just go somewhere else that is likeminded in doctrinal issues, and this is literally their only choice. To turn away such a believer is so say you don't care that their spiritually starve, because they don't agree on things that doesn't even pertain to the Lord. That is my opinion, again, and what I have felt spiritually because of being denied such.

I want to reiterate again that I don't demand this just be changed by all closed churches, and they are bigoted or whatever, only that I think in terms of the spiritual blessings given in the Lord's Supper, it is not practical or honest to turn away someone on issues that doesn't relate to their faith in Christ. In hard, trying times that will be even more impractical.

and that what you're receiving is no longer bread but the Body of Christ retaining the physical form of bread. That's a very difficult thing to accept, even for a lot of Catholics.

I've accepted cannib*ahem* I mean the Real Presence, a long time.

[/quote]Once again, thanks!

Sure. Understanding my brethren and making that effort is kinda a "do unto others" thing, a "Jesus said that" thing.



Pax Christi

 

[Mec99]

I feel so sorry for all you Catholics who have rejected the Truth in the Scriptures from God to follow the false teaching of the Catholic Church.

Do you NOT know God will Judge you Catholics for teaching lies as Truths?

Romans 1:18
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

2 Corinthians 4:2-4
[SUP]2 [/SUP] But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor handling the word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,
[SUP]4 [/SUP] whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

The Catholic Church is a false prophet and we need to expose the Evil the Catholics do in the name of God.

Matthew 7:15
[SUP]15 [/SUP] "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.

2 Corinthians 11:13-14
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.

2 Peter 2:1-3
[SUP]1 [/SUP] But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.

 

[Mec99]

May God have Mercy on the Souls of the Catholics.