Catholic Heresy (for the record)
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Well, lets put ot this way...There is a difference between "saints", and "Saints", kind of like "Catholic" vs. "catholic."
We capitalize the first letter to designate a specific saint, to distinguish from the broader use of the word--just as we capitalize "C" in 'catholic', to distinguish the one, true, holy, Catholic and apostolic Church that Christ founded, from the more generic meaning of simply 'universal'.
So, with 'saints', when we capitalize it, we are referring to a specific saint, or those whom have been officially declared to be among the Communion of Saints, in Heaven (upon a very high degree of confidence, anyway) based on how they lived their lives, what they stood for, and their 'legacy', vis a vis the Church--to distinguish from the larger body of saints, whose identities are largely/mostly unknown.
But because of the prestige of the formal recognition of sainthood, as it is reserved for folks who actually earned* the titular--that is, they established a significant amount/degree of 'cred' amongst most Christians--we don't throw the term around lightly (as our separated brethren seem to)--so as not to cheapen its meaning.
For e.g.--we're all pretty sure that "St. Paul", is a Saint. Ditto St. Francis of Assisi, St. Anthony of Padua, St. Joseph, St. John the Evangelist, St. John the Baptist, St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Dominic, St. Teresa of Avila, St. Theresa of Calcutta, Pope John Paul II, the Great...
...but we're not so sure about say, Pope Paul VI, Pope Benedict XVI (not knocking him at all, just say'n), late Bishop Fulton Sheen, Bishop Timothy Dolan, Carl Anderson (Supreme Knight if the Knights of Columbus, since 2000), John F. Kennedy, inter alia.
Point being, if that latter group (a formidable group) doesn't fit the bill, then you can see how stringent the standard is, for such a declaration to issue--and how odd it would be, to go around declaring so many ordinary people, who have not been subjected to any real scrutiny, as 'saints'--especially without allowing for a wayward turn to sin (it does happen from time to time, even among great and pious people).
Bottom line--Sainthood to us, is something beautiful, to which we aspire--the pinnacle of our Christianity--not something assumed, based solely on our Christianity, or our intent, vis a vis Christianity.
p.s. by 'earned', I am referring to the general recognition, not the sainthood itself, as that is a matter of grace, not merit--lest you be confused by another common protestant misunderstanding of Catholicism.
Pax Christi
"from henceforth, all generatins shall call me Blessed." --- Luke 1:48.
We capitalize the first letter to designate a specific saint, to distinguish from the broader use of the word--just as we capitalize "C" in 'catholic', to distinguish the one, true, holy, Catholic and apostolic Church that Christ founded, from the more generic meaning of simply 'universal'.
So, with 'saints', when we capitalize it, we are referring to a specific saint, or those whom have been officially declared to be among the Communion of Saints, in Heaven (upon a very high degree of confidence, anyway) based on how they lived their lives, what they stood for, and their 'legacy', vis a vis the Church--to distinguish from the larger body of saints, whose identities are largely/mostly unknown.
But because of the prestige of the formal recognition of sainthood, as it is reserved for folks who actually earned* the titular--that is, they established a significant amount/degree of 'cred' amongst most Christians--we don't throw the term around lightly (as our separated brethren seem to)--so as not to cheapen its meaning.
For e.g.--we're all pretty sure that "St. Paul", is a Saint. Ditto St. Francis of Assisi, St. Anthony of Padua, St. Joseph, St. John the Evangelist, St. John the Baptist, St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Dominic, St. Teresa of Avila, St. Theresa of Calcutta, Pope John Paul II, the Great...
...but we're not so sure about say, Pope Paul VI, Pope Benedict XVI (not knocking him at all, just say'n), late Bishop Fulton Sheen, Bishop Timothy Dolan, Carl Anderson (Supreme Knight if the Knights of Columbus, since 2000), John F. Kennedy, inter alia.
Point being, if that latter group (a formidable group) doesn't fit the bill, then you can see how stringent the standard is, for such a declaration to issue--and how odd it would be, to go around declaring so many ordinary people, who have not been subjected to any real scrutiny, as 'saints'--especially without allowing for a wayward turn to sin (it does happen from time to time, even among great and pious people).
Bottom line--Sainthood to us, is something beautiful, to which we aspire--the pinnacle of our Christianity--not something assumed, based solely on our Christianity, or our intent, vis a vis Christianity.
p.s. by 'earned', I am referring to the general recognition, not the sainthood itself, as that is a matter of grace, not merit--lest you be confused by another common protestant misunderstanding of Catholicism.
Pax Christi
"from henceforth, all generatins shall call me Blessed." --- Luke 1:48.
You do know fordman the books of Maccabees were not inspired from God? These books were written by men who did not follow God. These books are not in the Bible. So why are you quoting from books that are not inspired by God?
There is Heaven and Hell and the Lake of Fire. There is no Purgatory. Purgatory was made up by the Catholic Church because they believe and taught that God was powerless to remove the stain of our sins.
The Catholic believe its by their OWN works of spending time in Purgatory that they cleanse THEMSELVES by their WORKS of the stain of their sins.
Everything the Catholics do is by their own Works, not by God alone.
You can believe in Purgatory all you want but it will do nothing for you fordman.
1 John 1:9
[SUP]9 [/SUP] If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Our unrighteousness is the stain of our sins and Jesus Christ cleanses us from the stain of our sins.
Do you see how the Catholics take the Glory away from God and put it on themselves? Its themselves they Glorify, not God.
There is Heaven and Hell and the Lake of Fire. There is no Purgatory. Purgatory was made up by the Catholic Church because they believe and taught that God was powerless to remove the stain of our sins.
The Catholic believe its by their OWN works of spending time in Purgatory that they cleanse THEMSELVES by their WORKS of the stain of their sins.
Everything the Catholics do is by their own Works, not by God alone.
You can believe in Purgatory all you want but it will do nothing for you fordman.
1 John 1:9
[SUP]9 [/SUP] If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Our unrighteousness is the stain of our sins and Jesus Christ cleanses us from the stain of our sins.
Do you see how the Catholics take the Glory away from God and put it on themselves? Its themselves they Glorify, not God.
I can and will say the same for you mwc68. How can you even call your self a Christian when you reject what God says in His Scriptures to follow the lies of the Catholic Church?
Fordman is also in the same boat as you mwc68. You do know fordman that God says we all are Saints?
Ephesians 3:8
[SUP]8 [/SUP] To me, who am less than the least of all the Saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
Philippians 1:1
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Paul and Timothy, bondservants of Jesus Christ, To all the Saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi
All those in Christ are Saints! We do not need a corrupted Church to declare who is a Saint!
I really feel sorry for both of you. How can either of you ever know God if you keep on rejecting Him?
Fordman is also in the same boat as you mwc68. You do know fordman that God says we all are Saints?
Ephesians 3:8
[SUP]8 [/SUP] To me, who am less than the least of all the Saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
Philippians 1:1
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Paul and Timothy, bondservants of Jesus Christ, To all the Saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi
All those in Christ are Saints! We do not need a corrupted Church to declare who is a Saint!
I really feel sorry for both of you. How can either of you ever know God if you keep on rejecting Him?
I am now attending church in another denomination. I agree with you in that Mary should not be worshiped. There are many aspects about the Catholic church that I do not agree with or comprehend.
I will say that if you have been born again you are now a Christian regardless of your previous or current religious practices. From that point on you should grow spiritually in the ways of the Lord and how you live your life.
I will say that if you have been born again you are now a Christian regardless of your previous or current religious practices. From that point on you should grow spiritually in the ways of the Lord and how you live your life.
None of these teach purgatory. You are just hoping that people will not check and will be impressed by quantity.
LOL now we have it. You have to go to non-Scriptural writings not accepted by Jesus as Scripture.
LOL I wonder why? Couldn't you find your false teaching anywhere else?
So Judas Maccabaeus, not a trained scholar, had some strange ideas? You have some strange ideas too? But none of them are Scriptural.
Yes, it was because they followed their own tradition that they rejected the Messiah.
But we actually have no reason to think that the Jews in those day even believed in Heaven and Hell. What they were trying wrongly to do was prepare them for resurrection. They thought they were still in their graves. Thus it presumes nothing about purgatory.
NO, Judas Maccabaeus believed in prayers for the dead. Are we to follow Judas in all he taught and did?
So did Jesus
Rubbish we have no grounds for thinking it was current in His day.
He also never denied that the moon was made of green cheese. So is that what you believe? LOL Jesus did in fact deny it. He said there were TWO WAYS. One led to destruction, the other led to life. There was no third way. There is NO EVIDENCE AT ALL that He believed in purgatory, You are inventing it.
At least you are right on that
It was NOT part of Scripture in Jesus' time. Jesus told us that Scripture was made up of the Law, the prophets and 'the psalms' (the hagiographa). He never cites or authorises anything else. You are lying.
In the fact that Jesus called it 'the word of God' as opposed to tradition. And He told men to read them because they testified of Him. Indeed the early fathers themselves saw the Scriptures as the sole rule of faith.
Blessed Fordman LOL LOL
Dude there is only a difference in the Catholic Church’sword, this distinction doesn't exist in God’s word. You can't take a man madeand made up false rule, and apply in backwards into the bible. In scripturesaints are saints, us. If you can show me this distinction in scripture I'd behappy to see it, but I don't recognize the "authority" of the RCC, soyou have to do better than a brainwashing man made rule to have your case holdany water in truth.
As far as I'm concerned my point stands.
As far as I'm concerned my point stands.
Why do you want to be a Saint fordman? For what reason would you want to be a Saint for?
If the reason you want to be a Saint is because you want to bask in the Glory of being a Saint then your reasons for being a Saint are not God centered.
If you really want to be a Saint then follow Jesus Christ. If you really want to be a Saint the follow all that God has said in the Scriptures. If you really want to be a Saint then do not pursue being a Saint!
To really be a Saint, put others first. Put God first in your life. Humble yourself before God. Shine the light on Jesus Christ and not on yourself! Do not let others see you doing anything for yourself. Do not stand on the street corner bragging about yourself and what you have done, but in private do everything for the Glory of God!
If the reason you want to be a Saint is because you want to bask in the Glory of being a Saint then your reasons for being a Saint are not God centered.
If you really want to be a Saint then follow Jesus Christ. If you really want to be a Saint the follow all that God has said in the Scriptures. If you really want to be a Saint then do not pursue being a Saint!
To really be a Saint, put others first. Put God first in your life. Humble yourself before God. Shine the light on Jesus Christ and not on yourself! Do not let others see you doing anything for yourself. Do not stand on the street corner bragging about yourself and what you have done, but in private do everything for the Glory of God!
Is that right? Well ley me ask you this. Who is it you beleived determined that it was not written with Divine Inspiration? How? When? Was it ever considered Scripture and used in the synagogue?
I already know the answers to these questions, but I'd like to hear it from you.
A few things need to be said here. First of all, the seven books in question--Tobit, Judith, 1 and 2 Maccabees, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, and Baruch--are properly called the deuterocanonical books. Second, the label "unscriptural" was first applied by the Protestant Reformers of the 16th century. The truth is, portions of these books contradict elements of Protestant doctrine (as in the case of 2 Maccabees 12, which clearly supports prayers for the dead and a belief in purgatory), and the "reformers" therefore needed some excuse to eliminate them from the canon. However, these books are "unscriptural" only if misinterpreted. It should also be noted that the first-century Christians--including Jesus and the apostles--effectively considered these seven books canonical. They quoted from the Septuagint, a Greek translation of the Hebrew scriptures that contained these seven books. More importantly, the deuterocanonicals are clearly alluded to in the New Testament.
Third, the canon of the entire Bible was essentially settled around the turn of the fourth century. Up until this time, there was disagreement over the canon, and some ten different canonical lists existed, none of which corresponded exactly to what the Bible now contains. Around this time there were no less than five instances when the canon was formally identified: the Synod of Rome (382), the Council of Hippo (393), the Council of Carthage (397), a letter from Pope Innocent I to Exsuperius, Bishop of Toulouse (405), and the Second Council of Carthage (419). In every instance, the canon was identical to what Catholic Bibles contain today. In other words, from the end of the fourth century on, in practice Christians accepted the Catholic Church's decision in this matter.
By the time of the Reformation, Christians had been using the same 73 books in their Bibles (46 in the Old Testament, 27 in the New Testament)--and thus considering them inspired--for more than 1100 years. This practice changed with Martin Luther, who dropped the deuterocanonical books on nothing more than his own say-so. Protestantism as a whole has followed his lead in this regard.
One of the two "pillars" of the Protestant Reformation (sola scriptura or "the Bible alone") in part states that nothing can be added to or taken away from God's Word. History shows therefore that Protestants are guilty of violating their own doctrine.
Pax Christi
"from henceforth, all generations shall call me Blessed." ---Luke 1:48
[HR][/HR]
I already know the answers to these questions, but I'd like to hear it from you.
A few things need to be said here. First of all, the seven books in question--Tobit, Judith, 1 and 2 Maccabees, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, and Baruch--are properly called the deuterocanonical books. Second, the label "unscriptural" was first applied by the Protestant Reformers of the 16th century. The truth is, portions of these books contradict elements of Protestant doctrine (as in the case of 2 Maccabees 12, which clearly supports prayers for the dead and a belief in purgatory), and the "reformers" therefore needed some excuse to eliminate them from the canon. However, these books are "unscriptural" only if misinterpreted. It should also be noted that the first-century Christians--including Jesus and the apostles--effectively considered these seven books canonical. They quoted from the Septuagint, a Greek translation of the Hebrew scriptures that contained these seven books. More importantly, the deuterocanonicals are clearly alluded to in the New Testament.
Third, the canon of the entire Bible was essentially settled around the turn of the fourth century. Up until this time, there was disagreement over the canon, and some ten different canonical lists existed, none of which corresponded exactly to what the Bible now contains. Around this time there were no less than five instances when the canon was formally identified: the Synod of Rome (382), the Council of Hippo (393), the Council of Carthage (397), a letter from Pope Innocent I to Exsuperius, Bishop of Toulouse (405), and the Second Council of Carthage (419). In every instance, the canon was identical to what Catholic Bibles contain today. In other words, from the end of the fourth century on, in practice Christians accepted the Catholic Church's decision in this matter.
By the time of the Reformation, Christians had been using the same 73 books in their Bibles (46 in the Old Testament, 27 in the New Testament)--and thus considering them inspired--for more than 1100 years. This practice changed with Martin Luther, who dropped the deuterocanonical books on nothing more than his own say-so. Protestantism as a whole has followed his lead in this regard.
One of the two "pillars" of the Protestant Reformation (sola scriptura or "the Bible alone") in part states that nothing can be added to or taken away from God's Word. History shows therefore that Protestants are guilty of violating their own doctrine.
Pax Christi
"from henceforth, all generations shall call me Blessed." ---Luke 1:48
[HR][/HR]
Why forman do you only declare Mary is Blessed? Do you not know or do not care that every True Christian is Blessed by God or do you consider only Mary being Blessed?
Romans 4:7-8
[SUP]7 [/SUP] "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin."
Ephesians 1:3
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
James 1:12
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.
James 1:25
[SUP]25 [/SUP] But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.
James 5:11
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Indeed we count them blessed who endure.
1 Peter 3:14
[SUP]14 [/SUP] But even if you should suffer for righteousness' sake, you are blessed.
Who is your God fordman?
Romans 4:7-8
[SUP]7 [/SUP] "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin."
Ephesians 1:3
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
James 1:12
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.
James 1:25
[SUP]25 [/SUP] But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.
James 5:11
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Indeed we count them blessed who endure.
1 Peter 3:14
[SUP]14 [/SUP] But even if you should suffer for righteousness' sake, you are blessed.
Who is your God fordman?