The Sad Lives Of Legalists And Sinless Perfectionists

[KennethC]

Our cross, according to Jesus' words in Luke, is to be carried daily, so that means (to me) that dying every day to our current sins, (that we all fight within ourselves every day) are to be crucified with Christ.

Paul writes in present tense when he says; "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." Galatians 2:20 (He doesn't say "I have been crucified with Christ")

"I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily." 1 Corinthians 15:31

"And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me." Luke 9:23

"Give us this day our daily bread." Matthew 6:11

"Thou shalt daily prepare a burnt offering unto the Lord of a lamb of the first year without blemish: thou shalt prepare it every morning." Ezekiel 46:13

"But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin." Hebrews 3:13

Yes our walk goes hand and hand with faith in Christ unto salvation.

Apostles Paul, John, and James all three speak on this that we are to walk in the fruits of the Spirit and those fruits that are shown in a believer shows they are truly saved. Jesus even gave parables that shows preparing and doing His will shows the difference of one who is truly saved and one who is not.

The walk in the faith is very important and shows if we are saved or not, it in of itself is not what saves but is the proof of one who is saved. This concept seems to be hard to accept by some but is biblically sound !!!

 

[Budman]

Biblical references to "legalism"

The concept of "legalism" is found extensively throughout the Bible.

1. Old Testament

Isa. 29:13 - (Quoted in Matt. 15:8,9; Mk. 7:6,7

2. New Testament examples

Matt. 5:20-28
Matt. 23:1-28
Gal. 2:11-21
Gal. 3:1-3
Col. 2:16-23


Underlying causes of legalism

A. humanistic concept of self-control - "I'm in control of how things go."
B. humanistic concept of self-effort, "works" - trying, striving, "I can do it"; "You must do it, keep it, practice it, perform it." Meritorious benefits therefrom; achieve the goal
C. false security needs for defined parameters, limitations, borders
D. work-ethic concept of strict reciprocity - "get what you work for"
E. punitive concept of getting what one deserves
F. traditionalism of maintaining status quo
G. simplism of dividing life into compartments with instant solutions; fundamentalism. Got a handle on it - all figured out. Instant solutions - don't have to think or trust.
H. fear of freedom, of decision-making responsibility (Rom. 8:15)
I. security need for something that is fixed and static, concrete and tangible. Inordinate need to be safe and right
J. a favorite of sadomasochistic personalities; perfectionists, Pharisees.

Features of legalism

A. Law-based codes of conduct; rules and regulations, dos and don'ts.
B. Performance orientation. Expectations, obligations, duties, observances, routines, procedures, formulas, how-tos, shoulds, oughts, "thou-shalts"
C. Negativism, abstinence, "Thou shalt not..."
D. Legal sense of obedience, rather than Lordship sense of obedience. Obey rules rather than God.
E. Externalization; outward conformity to standards (Matt. 23:5-7; 25-28) F. Inflexible, rigid. Principle precedes people.
G. Oppressive, demanding. Burdensome (Lk. 11:46; Matt. 23:1-5)
H. Authoritarian, manipulative.
I. Intolerant, violent. Fighting, feuding, hostility, accusations of heresy.
J. Competitive, comparisons, resentments.
K. Exclusivism, elitism, bigotry.
L. Pride, arrogance, self-righteousness, ego-centricity. Badge of honor, status, orthodoxy.
M. Ostentation, show-off. "How do we look?" (Lk. 15:1,2); approval of men.
N. Critical, judgmental (Jn. 7:24; Rom. 2:1), suspicious.
O. Insensitive, unloving, lack of compassion.

Consequences of legalism

A. Keeps people distanced and alienated from God. Afraid of God, the taskmaster. Afraid of God's rejection. No assurance or security.
B. Guilt, condemnation (Rom. 8:1), accusation, disapproval (both objective and subjective).
C. Defeat, despair, frustration, futility. "It's a losing battle. I can never do enough, be good enough, do it right and perfect as expected." Burned out!
D. Self-destructive behavior; self-belittling, sense of worthlessness, low personal concept of oneself.
E. Hypocrisy. Play-acting; role-playing; lip-service (Matt. 15:8,9). Contrived piety, perfunctory performance, pretense, ostentation.
F. Minimalization. What do I have to do to get by, to side-step the rules? G. Impersonalization; shallow personal relationships because they relate to law rather that to Person of Jesus Christ and other persons.

The Christian gospel vs. legalism

1. Legalism is contrary to the Grace dynamic of God in Jesus Christ
2. Legalism is contrary to faith, our receptivity of God's activity; a satanic substitute that supplants faith.
3. Legalism is contrary to the Lordship of Christ, wherein He directs and guides our lives.
4. Legalism is contrary to Christian obedience, which is "listening under" the direction of the living Lord Jesus Christ.
5. Legalism is contrary to the Spirit-led Christian life, wherein the Spirit of Christ enables and empowers. (Eph. 5:18;
6. Legalism is contrary to freedom in Christ, and the liberty that is to be realized in present kingdom living. (John 8:31,32,36; II Cor. 3:17; Gal. 5:1,17)

Reaction and response to legalism by Christians

1. Christianity is not a legal, judicial, law-based religion
2. Must not assume that legalism is the only alternative to antinomianism, license or libertarianism. (II Tim. 3:5)
3. Must not assume that legalism is just another innocuous approach to Christian living.
4. Legalism is the basis of religion that binds people up, and ties them back, to rules, regulations and rituals, thus enslaving them to the sin of self-effort.
5. Legalism is a radically opposite counterfeit of Christianity
6. Legalism is sin. (Gal. 3:3; 5:4)
7. Legalism is idolatrous, setting up an independent standard of law as the basis of rightness, rather than God's righteousness.
8. Legalism is not to be tolerated or condoned, but to be exposed and eschewed. (Gal. 1:6-9)

LEGALISM. An outline study of what the Bible says about legalism.

 

[Jason0047]

1 John 1:7 - But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin is IN CONTRAST to 1 John 1:6 - If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. Walking in darkness is descriptive of lost unbelievers. Walking in the light is descriptive of saved believers. IF confirms these positions in verses 6 and 7. It's one or the other. Only saved believers are in the light.

Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.

2 Corinthians 6:14 - Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?

Ephesians 5:8 - For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light.

Let's look a little closer to see whether John is describing children of God or children of the devil in 1 John 1:6; 3:15.

Compare do not practice the truth in 1 John 1:6 with does not practice righteousness in 1 John 3:10.

1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God..

Now compare - Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him (1 John 3:15) with ..is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother (1 John 3:10).

Also compare 1 John 2:9 - He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now with 1 John 3:10 - ..is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. Also compare in darkness in 1 John 2:9 with turn them from darkness to light in Acts 26:18. So "in darkness and hates his brother/does not love his brother" is descriptive of children of the devil, not children of God.

Now read 1 John 2:11 - But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, (child of the devil - 1 John 3:10; Acts 26:18; 1 John 1:6) and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

Modern Versions say practice sin. That is not what it really says, though. As for the other passages on walking in darkness and hating your brother: Yes, one is of the devil if they are doing that. One who sins is of the devil. One who does righteousness is of God. It's simple. And it is indeed talking about salvation as the point of topic.

 

[Jason0047]

Biblical references to "legalism"

The concept of "legalism" is found extensively throughout the Bible.

1. Old Testament

Isa. 29:13 - (Quoted in Matt. 15:8,9; Mk. 7:6,7

2. New Testament examples

Matt. 5:20-28
Matt. 23:1-28
Gal. 2:11-21
Gal. 3:1-3
Col. 2:16-23


Underlying causes of legalism

A. humanistic concept of self-control - "I'm in control of how things go."
B. humanistic concept of self-effort, "works" - trying, striving, "I can do it"; "You must do it, keep it, practice it, perform it." Meritorious benefits therefrom; achieve the goal
C. false security needs for defined parameters, limitations, borders
D. work-ethic concept of strict reciprocity - "get what you work for"
E. punitive concept of getting what one deserves
F. traditionalism of maintaining status quo
G. simplism of dividing life into compartments with instant solutions; fundamentalism. Got a handle on it - all figured out. Instant solutions - don't have to think or trust.
H. fear of freedom, of decision-making responsibility (Rom. 8:15)
I. security need for something that is fixed and static, concrete and tangible. Inordinate need to be safe and right
J. a favorite of sadomasochistic personalities; perfectionists, Pharisees.

Features of legalism

A. Law-based codes of conduct; rules and regulations, dos and don'ts.
B. Performance orientation. Expectations, obligations, duties, observances, routines, procedures, formulas, how-tos, shoulds, oughts, "thou-shalts"
C. Negativism, abstinence, "Thou shalt not..."
D. Legal sense of obedience, rather than Lordship sense of obedience. Obey rules rather than God.
E. Externalization; outward conformity to standards (Matt. 23:5-7; 25-28) F. Inflexible, rigid. Principle precedes people.
G. Oppressive, demanding. Burdensome (Lk. 11:46; Matt. 23:1-5)
H. Authoritarian, manipulative.
I. Intolerant, violent. Fighting, feuding, hostility, accusations of heresy.
J. Competitive, comparisons, resentments.
K. Exclusivism, elitism, bigotry.
L. Pride, arrogance, self-righteousness, ego-centricity. Badge of honor, status, orthodoxy.
M. Ostentation, show-off. "How do we look?" (Lk. 15:1,2); approval of men.
N. Critical, judgmental (Jn. 7:24; Rom. 2:1), suspicious.
O. Insensitive, unloving, lack of compassion.

Consequences of legalism

A. Keeps people distanced and alienated from God. Afraid of God, the taskmaster. Afraid of God's rejection. No assurance or security.
B. Guilt, condemnation (Rom. 8:1), accusation, disapproval (both objective and subjective).
C. Defeat, despair, frustration, futility. "It's a losing battle. I can never do enough, be good enough, do it right and perfect as expected." Burned out!
D. Self-destructive behavior; self-belittling, sense of worthlessness, low personal concept of oneself.
E. Hypocrisy. Play-acting; role-playing; lip-service (Matt. 15:8,9). Contrived piety, perfunctory performance, pretense, ostentation.
F. Minimalization. What do I have to do to get by, to side-step the rules? G. Impersonalization; shallow personal relationships because they relate to law rather that to Person of Jesus Christ and other persons.

The Christian gospel vs. legalism

1. Legalism is contrary to the Grace dynamic of God in Jesus Christ
2. Legalism is contrary to faith, our receptivity of God's activity; a satanic substitute that supplants faith.
3. Legalism is contrary to the Lordship of Christ, wherein He directs and guides our lives.
4. Legalism is contrary to Christian obedience, which is "listening under" the direction of the living Lord Jesus Christ.
5. Legalism is contrary to the Spirit-led Christian life, wherein the Spirit of Christ enables and empowers. (Eph. 5:18;
6. Legalism is contrary to freedom in Christ, and the liberty that is to be realized in present kingdom living. (John 8:31,32,36; II Cor. 3:17; Gal. 5:1,17)

Reaction and response to legalism by Christians

1. Christianity is not a legal, judicial, law-based religion
2. Must not assume that legalism is the only alternative to antinomianism, license or libertarianism. (II Tim. 3:5)
3. Must not assume that legalism is just another innocuous approach to Christian living.
4. Legalism is the basis of religion that binds people up, and ties them back, to rules, regulations and rituals, thus enslaving them to the sin of self-effort.
5. Legalism is a radically opposite counterfeit of Christianity
6. Legalism is sin. (Gal. 3:3; 5:4)
7. Legalism is idolatrous, setting up an independent standard of law as the basis of rightness, rather than God's righteousness.
8. Legalism is not to be tolerated or condoned, but to be exposed and eschewed. (Gal. 1:6-9)

LEGALISM. An outline study of what the Bible says about legalism.

Without laws.... then one is advocating lawlessness and sin. Sin is transgression of the Law. He that sins is of the devil. He that says he knows him and does not keep his commandment is a liar and the truth is not in him. Without holiness, no man shall see the LORD. In works they deny Him. Why do you call me LORD, LORD, if you do not do what I say? Shall we continue in sin so that grace may abound? Paul says any man who speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness is proud and they know nothing. Paul said that what he had written should be regarded as the LORD's Commandments. Jesus said if you love me, you will keep His commandments.

 

[posthuman]

if anyone thinks being "free from the law of sin and death" means a person is lawless,
they do not understand God's grace.

 

[Jason0047]

if anyone thinks being "free from the law of sin and death" means a person is lawless,
they do not understand God's grace.

True, but I would take that a step further and say that if one also says they will always fall into sin in the future at some point because of some sin nature (that they cannot get rid of), then they are also essentially making an excuse for sin to take place in their life (Which is essentially saying they have a license to sin), too.

 

[posthuman]

True, but I would take that a step further and say that if one also says they will always fall into sin in the future at some point because of some sin nature (that they cannot get rid of), then they are also essentially making an excuse for sin to take place in their life (Which is essentially saying they have a license to sin), too.

you're about as careful in these discussions to avoid giving the impression of encouraging sin as i am about giving the impression that we're saved by anything other than Christ in baptism threads

 

[Jason0047]

you're about as careful in these discussions to avoid giving the impression of encouraging sin as i am about giving the impression that we're saved by anything other than Christ in baptism threads

Ah, yes. Baptism is only an outward symbol or picture done in response to having an already clear or good conscience before God. It is not for the putting away of the filth of the flesh (sin) (For "filthiness of the flesh" is in reference to sin elsewhere in the Bible. See 2 Corinthians 7:1).

 

[TMS]

Is God, a God of Mercy and grace? We all agree YES.
Is God, a God of Justice? Is He a Just God?
If God does not enforce the LAW that He put in place than He would be an unjust God.
Sin = Death. The cross paid the cost for me (perfect Grace and justice) not so i could continue to sin.
All have sinned so we all need grace. Someone that points out others sins to feel better about them-self needs to read what Jesus said "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."
But don't go to the other extreme, a lawless society would not be nice either. Laws are enforced to protect us from the consequences that result. The Law is still being enforced today by God.

 

[Jason0047]

I believe the Law that is enforced today is not the Law of Moses but it is the Law of Christ (Galatians 6:2), or the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:2), or the Royal Law (James 2:8), or the Law of Faith (Romans 3:27). For the Law has changed (Hebrews 7:12). We do not sacrifice animals in a temple anymore. We can now eat unclean animals. We are not to render an eye for an eye but we are to turn the other cheek. Yes, certain laws in the OT (Like God's moral laws) have been carried on over into the New Testament. But none of the Judicial Laws or Ceremonial Laws have been carried over, though. For Christ nailed to the cross those ordinances that were against us.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

True, but I would take that a step further and say that if one also says they will always fall into sin in the future at some point because of some sin nature (that they cannot get rid of), then they are also essentially making an excuse for sin to take place in their life (Which is essentially saying they have a license to sin), too.

Would you agree that we are all born with a sin nature, i.e. old man nature, flesh? Then would you also agree that when we are born again, we now take part of the divine nature? That is two natures within man. We have all the enablements within us through the spirit created within us to not sin BUT sometimes we do what we do not want to do. At the time when we do what we really do not want to do, sin dwells in us. Does that negate the Spirit that was born (created) in me of God and now make me born of the devil? Can a person be born of two fathers? Does that negate God having already seated me in heavenly places through Christ? Does that negate the fact that God promised me eternal life through my believing in his only begotten Son? Does that negate the fact that God has promised me an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fades not away reserved in heaven for me? IOW, when or if I sin, once born again, does God take away my new birth (the gift of holy Spirit), takes away all those things he promised when I confessed Jesus as Lord, and I have to start all over again - i.e. get born again again?

 

[gb9]

this is a great post that makes sense. and that is why Jason and others will attack it, because it is true and makes sense. anything outside their little box= wrong.

 

[jonl]

Would you agree that we are all born with a sin nature, i.e. old man nature, flesh? Then would you also agree that when we are born again, we now take part of the divine nature? That is two natures within man. We have all the enablements within us through the spirit created within us to not sin BUT sometimes we do what we do not want to do. At the time when we do what we really do not want to do, sin dwells in us. Does that negate the Spirit that was born (created) in me of God and now make me born of the devil? Can a person be born of two fathers? Does that negate God having already seated me in heavenly places through Christ? Does that negate the fact that God promised me eternal life through my believing in his only begotten Son? Does that negate the fact that God has promised me an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fades not away reserved in heaven for me? IOW, when or if I sin, once born again, does God take away my new birth (the gift of holy Spirit), takes away all those things he promised when I confessed Jesus as Lord, and I have to start all over again - i.e. get born again again?

“and I have to start all over again – i.e. get born again again?”

That’s what I was trying to say about a cycle of being saved, unsaved, repentance, saved again, unsaved again, repentance, saved, etc. Being lost in the wilderness of sin or walking through the valley of the shadow of death, the Lord is still there. Sometimes the words in the bible can (with good intentions) be misinterpreted.

However, on the whole I think J- and K- have a good handle on what salvation means. Ultimately listening and obeying Jesus’ words (such as Matthew 5 to 7) is very important. Jesus compared it to building the house on solid rock or sinking sand. I like what Jesus said to the 11 disciples in the Last Supper (John 14 to 16), especially that he would leave them the Comforter, the Holy Spirit. Sin and judgment have been often avoided by the church in the past 2 generations, but Jesus said, (John 16:7-11)

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
[SUP]8[/SUP]And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
[SUP]9[/SUP]Of sin, because they believe not on me;
[SUP]10[/SUP]Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
[SUP]11[/SUP]Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

 

[TMS]

Don't condemn people of sin, that's what the devil does, but don't condone sin either because it wasn't cheap to set us free and is a-poised to what God is.

 

[Jason0047]

Would you agree that we are all born with a sin nature, i.e. old man nature, flesh? Then would you also agree that when we are born again, we now take part of the divine nature? That is two natures within man. We have all the enablements within us through the spirit created within us to not sin BUT sometimes we do what we do not want to do. At the time when we do what we really do not want to do, sin dwells in us. Does that negate the Spirit that was born (created) in me of God and now make me born of the devil? Can a person be born of two fathers? Does that negate God having already seated me in heavenly places through Christ? Does that negate the fact that God promised me eternal life through my believing in his only begotten Son? Does that negate the fact that God has promised me an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fades not away reserved in heaven for me? IOW, when or if I sin, once born again, does God take away my new birth (the gift of holy Spirit), takes away all those things he promised when I confessed Jesus as Lord, and I have to start all over again - i.e. get born again again?

This is not an excercise based on human logic and reason off a few select verses you prefer. The whole entire counsel of God's Word has to be looked at plainly (And it should not go ignored). For the Scriptures say he that sins is of the devil; And Jesus said you cannot serve two masters. 1 John 2:29 says, "ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him." So if one sins they are of the devil. If one does righteousness, they are born of him. You can serve two masters and or be of both kingdoms.

Real life teaches us that if you are born into this world, you can then die. However, God has the power to raise to life (or resurrect the dead). Lazarus was raised from the dead and he will be raised bodily yet again in the resurrection of life (with an incorruptible eternal body). So yes, a person can be born again spiritually, then die spiritually, and then raised to life again spiritually for we see it happen in the physical world with the life of Jesus Christ.

For God's Promises of Eternal Life are Conditional. If you break the Conditions God has set for you to abide in Him by sinning, then you are breaking your covenant with Him. How do we know this?

Well, we learn in Scripture that circumcision is a seal. It is the seal of the Old Testament saint's righteousness by faith. For it is written...

"And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith"​

This is important to understand because a seal of circumcision can be broken. How is that possible? It is written...

"but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision."​

We also know that salvation is not a Promised super power. Salvation is abiding in Jesus Christ and His Words. How do we know we have to abide in His words? Because John 12:48 says that if we reject his words then those very words will then judge us on the last day. So if you reject say.... Matthew 6:15 and you decide to not forgive someone, then those very words will then judge you on the last day and you will not be forgiven (because you chose to disobey this Command given to us by Jesus). For the Scriptures say, be ye doers of the Word and not hearers only deceiving your ownselves.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

“and I have to start all over again – i.e. get born again again?”

That’s what I was trying to say about a cycle of being saved, unsaved, repentance, saved again, unsaved again, repentance, saved, etc. Being lost in the wilderness of sin or walking through the valley of the shadow of death, the Lord is still there. Sometimes the words in the bible can (with good intentions) be misinterpreted.

However, on the whole I think J- and K- have a good handle on what salvation means. Ultimately listening and obeying Jesus’ words (such as Matthew 5 to 7) is very important. Jesus compared it to building the house on solid rock or sinking sand. I like what Jesus said to the 11 disciples in the Last Supper (John 14 to 16), especially that he would leave them the Comforter, the Holy Spirit. Sin and judgment have been often avoided by the church in the past 2 generations, but Jesus said, (John 16:7-11)

There are quite a few questions in my post and you only wanted to respond to one? And I didn't really understand what you meant by your response . . . . . Do you believe that it is a cycle of being saved, unsaved, repentance, saved again, etc.?

 

[peacefulbeliever]

This is not an excercise based on human logic and reason off a few select verses you prefer. The whole entire counsel of God's Word has to be looked at plainly (And it should not go ignored). For the Scriptures say he that sins is of the devil; And Jesus said you cannot serve two masters. 1 John 2:29 says, "ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him." So if one sins they are of the devil. If one does righteousness, they are born of him. You can serve two masters and or be of both kingdoms.

I really wish you could just answer the questions set forth in your own words . . . No you cannot serve two masters - If I was a slave and I had two masters - I would love one and the other I wouldn't like so much . . . To the one I loved I would do my best to serve him with all that I had within me to do so . . . the one that I liked less - I wouldn't really even want to serve although I may find myself serving him. . . . which equates to - For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. (For I know that in me [that is in my flesh] dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but to perform that which is good I find not) also - the flesh lusteth against the spirit and the Spirit against the flesh - we ARE to WALK by the Spirit but at times our flesh and our old man nature tend to win out - it is a WALK, it is a FIGHT, it is a RACE and we are to strive, we are to run to achieve the prize and that is what Christians do even those who believe in eternal security.

Real life teaches us that if you are born into this world, you can then die. However, God has the power to raise to life (or resurrect the dead). Lazarus was raised from the dead and he will be raised bodily yet again in the resurrection of life (with an incorruptible eternal body). So yes, a person can be born again spiritually, then die spiritually, and then raised to life again spiritually for we see it happen in the physical world with the life of Jesus Christ.

Yes, we are born of the flesh and that is corruptible seed. . . we are born again of incorruptible seed. I don't know what YOU think incorruptible means but to me it means that it can't be corrupted!!! and with that incorruptible seed that is born within me, that divine nature that I partake of via the gift of holy Spirit, has given me an inheritance that is also incorruptible - PLUS undefiled, and does not fade away. Now - if I go to a verse that implies that I can loose what God has given me - SOMETHING IS WRONG SOMEWHERE!! Because a contradiction has been set up and then I cannot even trust God when he says that he has given me the gift of holy Spirit - that he has created a new creation within me and that new creation (Spirit) is incorruptible, etc.

For God's Promises of Eternal Life are Conditional. If you break the Conditions God has set for you to abide in Him by sinning, then you are breaking your covenant with Him. How do we know this?

Well, we learn in Scripture that circumcision is a seal. It is the seal of the Old Testament saint's righteousness by faith. For it is written...

"And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith"​

This is important to understand because a seal of circumcision can be broken. How is that possible? It is written...

"but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision."​

We also know that salvation is not a Promised super power. Salvation is abiding in Jesus Christ and His Words. How do we know we have to abide in His words? Because John 12:48 says that if we reject his words then those very words will then judge us on the last day. So if you reject say.... Matthew 6:15 and you decide to not forgive someone, then those very words will then judge you on the last day and you will not be forgiven (because you chose to disobey this Command given to us by Jesus). For the Scriptures say, be ye doers of the Word and not hearers only deceiving your ownselves.

And you are correct in that in the OT - their salvation could be lost . . . they were not born again . . . they were saved dependent upon how they kept the law; same as in the gospels [under the law] (Deut. 6:25) We are born again through faith by the grace of God. I can do nothing to earn my salvation!

Salvation is a gift from God by His grace through faith in his Son . . . PERIOD!!! That which is born of the Spirit is spirit and when you confess Jesus as Lord, believe God raised him from the dead YOU ARE SAVED; at that moment spirit is born within you via the gift of holy Spirit, you are God's son/daughter - YOUR WALK will be judged before Christ at the bema.

 

[KennethC]

Acts 20:28-31


28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

29 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock.

30 Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things,to draw away the disciples after themselves.

31 Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.




This is one of many said by the Apostle Paul, and here you can see that he clearly says that some of the flock will be drawn away and not spared. Paul says he has warned us day and night in tears about this. Now why would Paul warn believers of being deceived and not spared if it is only about rewards as some have been taught? He wouldn't because there is more at stake by being deceived and falling away from the faith.

 

[jonl]

There are quite a few questions in my post and you only wanted to respond to one? And I didn't really understand what you meant by your response . . . . . Do you believe that it is a cycle of being saved, unsaved, repentance, saved again, etc.?

I was trying to say that "a cycle of being saved, unsaved, repentance, saved again, unsaved again, repentance, saved, etc." is not scriptural. However, in spite of J- and K-'s use of the word "unsaved," I think that they generally have a good handle on what salvation means. A sinner is not to be condemned, but OTOH, using a false idea of grace (based on misusing scripture) to cover sin might not hold water in the final judgment of God.

I don't want to go through dozens of points, if I've been misunderstood in just one point. In any case, obeying the leading of the Holy Spirit is part of salvation. (Romans 8:1) That's what distinguishes true christian faith from any other religion -- the holiness of God indwelling the believer.

 

[sparkman]

His atoning sacrifice IS finished.

The language of Hebrews conveys this. That is the reason why Jesus "sits down" rather than standing up.

The priest was not allowed to sit down when entering into the Holy of Holies. That is because the shedding of blood under the Old Covenant never took away sin, it only "covered it up" like a bandaid.

You really need to educate yourself on Hebrews from some good sources of information. There are a lot of blaspheming heretics out there that do injustice to Jesus' atoning sacrifice.

Yes, and always with Jesus as advocate. (I John 2:1-3) If Jesus' atonement sacrifice was absolutely finished, would there be need for him to be advocate at the right hand of God, and for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? Unlike a hireling preacher, Jesus follows up on the sheep who have entered the fold, made possible by his redemptive work.