The Sad Lives Of Legalists And Sinless Perfectionists

[PennEd]

I've seen these Grace + works vs. Grace alone threads continuously every day in one iteration or another. ALL of these type threads boil down to one question. Is God going to be angry and condemn you because you sinned in some fashion after accepting His Son's perfect sacrifice confessing it to Him, or is He going to be angry and condemn you because you don't believe His Son's blood is capable of cleansing you of all unrighteousness?
There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereofare the ways of death.

I think many people believe if they can just be good enough, even after confessing Jesus, that it will get them saved. I pray in Jesus name that my dear brothers and sisters in Christ trust SOLELY on His shed blood.

 

[Jason0047]

This is really all you are doing....

View attachment 128057

Is it wrong to correct that which is evil? For if the Scriptures do teach that you can stop sinning (and they do - See 1 Peter 4:1; Galatians 5:24; Romans 6:14) and you believe will always do sin and evil, then you are making an excuse for sin and evil (And you are going against the Word of God).

 

[Jason0047]

I've seen these Grace + works vs. Grace alone threads continuously every day in one iteration or another. ALL of these type threads boil down to one question. Is God going to be angry and condemn you because you sinned in some fashion after accepting His Son's perfect sacrifice confessing it to Him, or is He going to be angry and condemn you because you don't believe His Son's blood is capable of cleansing you of all unrighteousness?
There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereofare the ways of death.

I think many people believe if they can just be good enough, even after confessing Jesus, that it will get them saved. I pray in Jesus name that my dear brothers and sisters in Christ trust SOLELY on His shed blood.

How do you apply the blood? Does not 1 John 1:7 say that the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses you of all sin if one walks in the light as he in the light? Would this verse not be in context to 1 John 2:3-4?

 

[mailmandan]

I've seen these Grace + works vs. Grace alone threads continuously every day in one iteration or another. ALL of these type threads boil down to one question. Is God going to be angry and condemn you because you sinned in some fashion after accepting His Son's perfect sacrifice confessing it to Him, or is He going to be angry and condemn you because you don't believe His Son's blood is capable of cleansing you of all unrighteousness?
There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereofare the ways of death.

I think many people believe if they can just be good enough, even after confessing Jesus, that it will get them saved. I pray in Jesus name that my dear brothers and sisters in Christ trust SOLELY on His shed blood.

I trust SOLELY in Christ's finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of my salvation (Romans 1:16; 3:24-26; Acts 10:43; Ephesians 2:8,9).

 

[jonl]

Excellent use of the scene. That is indeed what we do and what Paul said would happen. We are tempted to believe in a lie because the alternative is extremely uncomfortable. It is written that in the last days the old message must be prophesied again to everyone everywhere making them sick to their stomachs.

Revelation 10:9-11
9 And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.

10 And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.

11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.


The message John was given he then had to speak again to everyone.

...The word "again" suggests that the message was given once before. Perhaps many forgot it.

...The words "belly" and "bitter" suggest that the message is not one that sits well inside once digested. The belly/flesh hates it.

The message given by Christ to John to give to his churches at the beginning of the book of Revelation is "you must stop doing your evil deeds (i.e. sins)"...i.e. repent.


John 3:19-21
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds (i.e. works) were evil.

20 For every one that does evil hates the light, neither comes to the light, lest his deeds (i.e. works) should be reproved (i.e. reprimanded/corrected/judged).

21 But he that does truth comes to the light, that his deeds (i.e. works) may be made manifest (i.e. shown), that they are wrought in (i.e. shaped by) God


Sin is an "evil deed"; any action that transgresses God's law.

We are expected to repent: stop our evil deeds and do "the deeds shaped by God"

...in other words, perform the actions that are the opposite of sins...

If a sin is a transgression of God's law...what is the opposite action of a sin?

IMO, that was a well-thought out post. It goes against the tide because most people (including many professed christians) have their own anti-christ agendas. What you said about Rev. 10:9-11 might be true to a certain extent but might be more than just repeating what Jesus had said to the 7 churches about sin and repentance (Rev. 2 and 3). Rev. 10:4 –

And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

The observer was told not to write down what he saw “when the seven thunders had uttered their voices.” The mighty angel (from which came the 7 thunders), gave the little book to the observer -- and said that the observer would prophesy again, probably based on the sealed utterances of the 7 thunders.

 

[phil112]

....................... It goes against the tide because most people (including many professed christians) have their own anti-christ agendas. .............................

Really? The only people I know that have an "anti-christ agenda" are muslims, and I don't know any of them personally.
That post makes you sound like an immature believer. If you age wasn't up I would guess you to be about 20. But your avatar says you're 73 so I guess I'm wrong, huh?
You must just be a newbie. Yeah that's the ticket, that would explain your "can't handle strong meat" type of posting.
Please, forgive me for being forward.

 

[mailmandan]

I do not reverse the order as I have seen many on here do, as they put salvation/eternal life before any of this such as repentance and baptism is done.

I was talking about reversing the order of repentance/faith. Repentance and faith precede salvation which precedes water baptism. Faith is not baptism and faith precedes baptism and we are saved through faith. It's just that simple.

Those are the people I am trying to show the truth from the bible as they believe repentance and baptism is the result and not what leads by faith to salvation.

Do you believe that we are saved when we repent and believe the gospel or do you believe that believers remain lost until after they are water baptized? What do you believe it means to believe the gospel/be saved through faith?

Then you fall to the same teaching by man that the second half of Mark 16:16 omits baptism, but it doesn't if you take all the words of the Lord into account.

The second half of Mark 16:16 does omit baptism and simply says, "but whoever does not believe will be condemned." Just as we see in John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because (he has not been water baptized? NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. NOWHERE does the Bible say "water baptized or condemned." You never did answer my question: If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? Do you ignore these verses or do you try to "shoe horn" baptism into believes?

For the Lord Jesus said in such passages as Luke 6:46-49 that those who "believe" in Him will do what He said, and He commanded baptism to be done no less then 4 times:

Believing in Him is what saves us (John 3:15,16,18; 6:49,47: 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31 etc..). Doing what He said "afterwards" is WORKS and we are NOT saved by works, but through faith.

Matthew 28:19,

We have here a command from Jesus to go and make disciples of all nations, and baptize them. However, it does not say here that baptism is necessary for salvation. The same command also includes the clause "teaching them to observe all things" that Christ has commanded them. If we are to assume that baptism is essential to salvation, then by consistent interpretation of the context, we should say that absolute obedience to all of Christ's commands is also necessary for salvation.

Mark 16:16

If we look at this verse closely, we see that it is composed of two basic statements. 1—He who believes and is baptized will be saved. 2—He who does not believe will be condemned. Clearly, the determining factor regarding whether one is saved or condemned is whether or not one believes. In interpreting this passage correctly, it is important to realize that while it tells us something about believers who have been baptized (they will be saved), it does not say anything about believers who have not been baptized. In order for this verse to teach that baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation, a third statement would have had to be included, that statement being: "He who believes and is not baptized will be condemned" or "He who is not baptized will be condemned." But, of course, neither of these statements is found in the verse. Again, nowhere does the Bible say whoever is not water baptized will be condemned.

John 3:5

Water is used in the Bible as an emblem of the Word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. Baptism does not avail to cleanse the heart from defilement, but our Lord did say, "Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you" (John 15:3). Jesus said, "born of water and the Spirit" in John 3:5. He did not say born of baptism and the Spirit. To automatically read baptism into this verse simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted. Scripture interprets itself. Notice in John 7:38-39, "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of LIVING WATER. But this He spoke concerning the SPIRIT. *Did you see that? If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart wil flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again.

John 3:5 - Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

John 4:10 - Jesus answered and said to her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.

John 4:14 - but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life. *That's not water baptism.

John 7:37 - On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit..

1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. This is Spirit baptism, not water baptism.

Titus 3:5 - not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit. Not water baptism but spiritual washing/purification of the soul.

John 15:3 - You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.

Ephesians 5:26 - that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word.

1 Peter 1:23 - having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever. Get the picture?

Matthew 3:15

- By Jesus getting water baptized, it was a part of Him "fulfilling all righteousness". Water baptism is clearly a "work of righteousness" and we are "not saved by works of righteousness which we have done" - Titus 3:5.

Where do you get that from about Acts 2:38 that remission on refers back to the first condition and not the second, when Peter is clearly saying you have to do both to receive that remission and be born again by receiving the Holy Spirit? Apostle Peter continues on in Acts and even in his epistles showing that water is still part to be done by the believer.

Your interpretation is clearly not in harmony with Acts 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31 and saved through faith, not works/works of righteousness (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5). Greek scholar A. T. Robertson, was probably the greatest Greek scholar of his day. He authored a large Greek Grammar, as well as a six volume series entitled, Word Pictures in the New Testament. In his comments on Acts 2:38 he shows how the grammar of this verse can be used to support more than one interpretation of this text. He then reaches this conclusion: “One will decide the use here according as he believes that baptism is essential to the remission of sins or not. My view is decidedly against the idea that Peter, Paul, or any one in the New Testament taught baptism as essential to the remission of sins or the means of securing such remission. So I understand Peter to be urging baptism on each of them who had already turned (repented) and for it to be done in the name of Jesus Christ on the basis of the forgiveness of sins which they had already received.”

Acts 3:19 does not omit baptism as the conversion part is the baptism, as when you go back to what the Lord said in Matthew 28:19 it shows by baptism is how we are shown to be converted to be His disciples.

Absolutely false. Peter did not say repent and be baptized and be converted and baptism is not converted. You sound like SeaBass who is a church of Christ zealot. Go and make disciples and baptize them does not mean that water baptism magically causes them to become disciples. Becoming a disciple of Jesus is signified, yet not procured in the waters of baptism. Becoming a disciple of Jesus is a heart decision that is made prior to becoming water baptized.

We can not go and cancel things out just because the exact word is not mentioned, which is why we are told to live by all the words that proceed from God.

Don't forget to rightly divide the word of truth and harmonize scripture with scripture in the process.

Acts 10:43 is not the standard on what comes first the Holy Spirit or baptism, as that passage was the Lord showing the Jews who were contentious about Gentiles having the right to salvation that we do have that right as well. Lord Jesus gave those Gentile believers the Holy Spirit first to squash and put an end to the debate, but if you then keep reading in Acts 10:47-48 Peter commanded them to finish the process by being baptized and nobody could forbid it to be done.

Process of what? These Gentiles had already believed, received the Holy Spirit, spoke in tongues and were saved BEFORE water baptism. They spoke in tongues to demonstrate to the Jews that God has accepted these Gentiles into the body of Christ. These were not lost children of the devil speaking in tongues.

Acts 11:17, 15:8, is just a continuation of the debate that went on from chapter 10.

Yes it was and these verses do not support salvation by water baptism. These Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ BEFORE water baptism. Acts 11:18 - repentance unto life. Acts 15:9 - hearts purified by faith, not baptism.

The Lord Jesus Christ commanded baptism (H20) and said it must be done to fulfill all righteousness, and also said unless you are born again of water and Spirit you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus told John to permit Him to be baptized, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness. Jesus said born of water and Spirit, not born of baptism and Spirit. What did Jesus say about "water" in John 4:10,14; 7:37-38? Nothing about baptism. Living water is not water baptism.

If you go back and compare it to how the sanctification process has always be done by God from the OT forward you will see that water and blood both were always used. I am Non-Denomination but have attended both Baptist and Catholic churches in the past, and they both stuck to water baptism to be done by believers.

We are discussing justification, not the sanctification process. Your theology sounds like it is out of the Restoration movement. No Baptists that I know of teach baptism of infants or baptismal regeneration like Roman Catholics do.

1 Corinthians 10:1-2

For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea,

and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.

Cloud (Spirit) - Sea (Water)

Now does 1 Corinthians 10:2 teach that the Israelites were literally water baptized into the body of Moses? Absolutely not. Some may try and argue: "God put water between the Israelites and deliverance." No, the very opposite is the case: God took water out of the way! He rolled the Red Sea back and Israel went through on dry land! Those who got the water were the Egyptians and what good did it do them? The Israelites were "baptized into Moses" (metaphorically) indicating their oneness, or solidarity, with him as their leader. The word "baptized" in scripture does not always refer to literal water baptism. It can refer to Spirit baptism and can even be used in a metaphorical sense (as I already showed you) and also in Luke 12:50 where Christ was referring to being baptized/immersed into suffering, namely His death on the cross and not water baptism. You must rightly divide the word of truth.

 

[jonl]

I was talking about reversing the order of repentance/faith. Repentance and faith precede salvation which precedes water baptism. Faith is not baptism and faith precedes baptism and we are saved through faith. It's just that simple.

Do you believe that we are saved when we repent and believe the gospel or do you believe that believers remain lost until after they are water baptized? What do you believe it means to believe the gospel/be saved through faith? …..

I read through the whole post and thought it was worth reading. It gives meticulous reasons why water baptism is more of a sign of accepting salvation, and not strictly required for salvation. Instead, true faith in Christ (John 3:16) is the essential criteria for salvation. Some who emphasize “outward rituals” might not have encountered a true faith experience, or they do have true faith but have misunderstood the NT. For example, a great many Baptists have true faith, but still insist on the importance of water baptism.

However, I believe that obeying Christ’s words in Matthew 5 to 7 is very important, the difference between building the house on a solid rock or sinking sand. True faith can help the weakest and most foolish believers through to eternal life, but they need to willingly obey the leading of the Holy Spirit, who indwells the believer. (Romans 8:1)

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

 

[Jason0047]

I read through the whole post and thought it was worth reading. It gives meticulous reasons why water baptism is more of a sign of accepting salvation, and not strictly required for salvation. Instead, true faith in Christ (John 3:16) is the essential criteria for salvation. Some who emphasize “outward rituals” might not have encountered a true faith experience, or they do have true faith but have misunderstood the NT. For example, a great many Baptists have true faith, but still insist on the importance of water baptism.

However, I believe that obeying Christ’s words in Matthew 5 to 7 is very important, the difference between building the house on a solid rock or sinking sand. True faith can help the weakest and most foolish believers through to eternal life, but they need to willingly obey the leading of the Holy Spirit, who indwells the believer. (Romans 8:1)

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Yes, I agree. The New Covenant is not about rituals. The Old Covenant had involved that because they were shadows and types pointing us to Jesus Christ (Who is the body that reflects or casts those shadows).

Colossians 2:16-17 GWT (God's Word Translation)
"Therefore, let no one judge you because of what you eat or drink or about the observance of annual holy days, New Moon Festivals, or weekly worship days. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the body [that casts the shadow] belongs to Christ. "

The New Covenant is about even more mercy and grace but it is not allowance for somekind of license for immorality, though (Whether it be a little immorality or a lot of immorality). God is there for us if we honestly stumble, but He does want us to be changed spiritually and to stop sinning those types of sins that are identified with the world (Like hating, lying, stealing, blasphemy, bad language, and lusting, etc.). For being changed shows that they have been born again spiritually and that God lives within them.

 

[Jason0047]

I trust SOLELY in Christ's finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of my salvation (Romans 1:16; 3:24-26; Acts 10:43; Ephesians 2:8,9).

This is dangerous to say this and then stop in your conversation. For if you say this then someone can get the impression that they can live however they please and still serve God. Why do I say this? Because there are many that do believe that. Which is why I do not agree with statements made like this.

Jesus came to set the captives free from sin. Not to stumble into sin every once in a while as if to declare we will always sin and be a slave to it in this life. For Jesus said, he that sins is a slave to sin. Jesus did not say this favorablly of the Pharisees.

 

[KennethC]

Look kenneth...you can deny, argue, use semantics and at the end of the day faith plus works equals a works based salvation....this is a gospel of a different kind, it has no power to save and is false. The bible teaches that faith and faith alone saves period. The bible teaches that some saved are honorable with works of gold, silver and precious stones...some are not honorable with works of wood, hay and stubble...the works do not save us, keep us saved and or facillitate salvation....you teach faith plus works...that is a works based false gospel...no need to deny it..you have hundreds of posts that prove that you teach a works based false gospel!

Once again as always you and others such as Eternally Grateful keep up your false baseless allegations that shows you need the Spirit to work more love in your lives. Pray about that to God as once again and I will repeat for the 1,000th time that I have never said works save as you and a couple others keep falsely stating.

The bible clearly shows that a true faith is an active faith full of the fruits of the Spirit, and if you and a few others don't like that then your debate is with God not me.

As works in and of themselves do not save but they are the proof of one who is truly saved.
There is no way to work around the fact that the bible shows obedience will be in a true believer, and if there is no obedience that is proof they are not saved. Also the same goes with love as the bible shows the ones' who claim to love God but hate others there is no eternal life abiding in them. Love is shown in actions and words, so how you speak to another or treat another shows if you love or not, and condemning belittling sarcastic remarks do not come from love.

The Word of God is very clear that salvation is by grace through faith in the Lord, and the Lord Jesus shows that belief in Him is an active faith. Those who are disobedient to His teachings and commands the bible clearly says they will not see eternal life, because they will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.

 

[KennethC]

No, I was born again spiritually long before I was baptized. I know because my life had changed and I had the same desires of walking in the fruits of the Spirit that I do now. Being born again of water is NOT talking about baptism because people had already received the Spirit without water baptism. Being born again of water is talking about being born again of incorruptible seed (Which is the Word of God). For Christ sanctifices the church (us) with the washing (water) of the Word (See Ephesians 5:25-26). One is born by the Spirit and one is born by the Word of God. That is what being born by the Spirit and being born by water means. Baptism is just an outward symbol or picture. Peter says baptism does now save us.... BUT NOT FOR THE PUTTING AWAY OF THE FILTH OF THE FLESH. This is in context to sin because that is where the Bible defines "filth of the flesh" elsewhere (See 2 Corinthians 7:1). Also, I would like a reference in Scripture that one is Hell-bound if one does not rejoice if they are persecuted, too. I did not really see that in Scripture. So there is no slippery slope, my dear friend.

Here you are misusing the example from Acts 10 to say people receive the Holy Spirit before baptism in water, but the problem with using that passage is that this was not the standard on how the Holy Spirit is given by the Lord and received.

You must understand the context there as the Apostles and Jewish disciples were arguing among themselves as to rather Gentiles had the right to receive salvation through the Lord like them. The Lord gave this particular group of Gentiles the Holy Spirit before baptism (H2O) to prove to those Jew's who did not believe we have the same right that we do, and then after making the point that Gentiles have the right to salvation Peter then immediately command them to be baptized.

The bible says the Holy Spirit is given to those who obey, therefore there must be things that we must do before receiving the Holy Spirit as it is not just given at minute one of faith. Apostle Peter gives the standard in Acts 2:38 of repenting and getting baptized first then the receiving of the Holy Spirit takes place.

 

[Jason0047]

Here you are misusing the example from Acts 10 to say people receive the Holy Spirit before baptism in water, but the problem with using that passage is that this was not the standard on how the Holy Spirit is given by the Lord and received.

You must understand the context there as the Apostles and Jewish disciples were arguing among themselves as to rather Gentiles had the right to receive salvation through the Lord like them. The Lord gave this particular group of Gentiles the Holy Spirit before baptism (H2O) to prove to those Jew's who did not believe we have the same right that we do, and then after making the point that Gentiles have the right to salvation Peter then immediately command them to be baptized.

The bible says the Holy Spirit is given to those who obey, therefore there must be things that we must do before receiving the Holy Spirit as it is not just given at minute one of faith. Apostle Peter gives the standard in Acts 2:38 of repenting and getting baptized first then the receiving of the Holy Spirit takes place.

Not the standard? If God did it once in the New Testament, He can do it again.

 

[Jason0047]

Does faith come by baptism? Or does faith come by hearing the Word of God?

In Ephesians 5:25-26 it says this,

"Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,"

By the washing of the Water of the Word.

 

[KennethC]

I've seen these Grace + works vs. Grace alone threads continuously every day in one iteration or another. ALL of these type threads boil down to one question. Is God going to be angry and condemn you because you sinned in some fashion after accepting His Son's perfect sacrifice confessing it to Him, or is He going to be angry and condemn you because you don't believe His Son's blood is capable of cleansing you of all unrighteousness?
There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereofare the ways of death.

I think many people believe if they can just be good enough, even after confessing Jesus, that it will get them saved. I pray in Jesus name that my dear brothers and sisters in Christ trust SOLELY on His shed blood.

The difference that the bible speaks on though is;

1) Did the person backslide and then repented/confessed of that sin and continued to walk in the faith

or

2) Did they fall back in sin and continue to walk in that sinful nature without repentance/confession


Point 1 the bible says this person continues to walk in the Light and the blood of the Lord continues to cleanse us of all unrighteousness. But point 2 the bible says these will be sent to eternal death and told He never knew them because disobedience to His teachings is sin and is also labeled unbelief.

Those who are disobedient the bible says they will not enter His rest (eternal life) because of that unbelief !!!

 

[KennethC]

Not the standard? If God did it once in the New Testament, He can do it again.

Again the point in Acts 10 of the Holy Spirit being given before baptism was only to prove the Gentiles had the right to salvation just as the Jews do.

What purpose would it serve to have the Holy Spirit be given before repentance and baptism now?

Does faith come by baptism? Or does faith come by hearing the Word of God?

In Ephesians 5:25-26 it says this,

"Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,"

By the washing of the Water of the Word.

Who said anything about faith coming from baptism?

Faith comes by hearing the word and trusting in what it said, but when one establishes faith does not mean they have the Holy Spirit already. As Peter shows that the Holy Spirit is given after by faith we trust in the word to repent of our sins and get baptized into being His disciples.

Once again if baptism is not important Jesus would not have commanded it, and the Apostles would not have continued it on.
You do know there is more scriptures in the bible about sanctification and baptism then there is about repentance ???

 

[Jason0047]

What I said with the Word of God stands. So no. I don't believe what you are saying.

 

[KennethC]

What I said with the Word of God stands. So no. I don't believe what you are saying.

Well like I have always said do not believe me, but go back and read Acts 10-11 and you will see the only reason the Holy Spirit was given before baptism was because of the debate on rather Gentiles should receive the right to salvation through Christ as the Jews. Those two chapters are not the setting tone of how the Holy Spirit is given, as Apostle Peter gives the standard in Acts 2:38.

So you can continue to say you do not believe what I say, but it comes directly from the Word of God !!!

 

[Jason0047]

Well like I have always said do not believe me, but go back and read Acts 10-11 and you will see the only reason the Holy Spirit was given before baptism was because of the debate on rather Gentiles should receive the right to salvation through Christ as the Jews. Those two chapters are not the setting tone of how the Holy Spirit is given, as Apostle Peter gives the standard in Acts 2:38.

So you can continue to say you do not believe what I say, but it comes directly from the Word of God !!!

Not only does it say that but it is saying that God is not directed to living in a person by an outward ritual (that is a merely picture or symbol), too. But believe what you will. I just think it is contrary to what the Word of God says clearly. Paul said he came not to baptize but to preach the gospel.

 

[KennethC]

Well like I have always said do not believe me, but go back and read Acts 10-11 and you will see the only reason the Holy Spirit was given before baptism was because of the debate on rather Gentiles should receive the right to salvation through Christ as the Jews. Those two chapters are not the setting tone of how the Holy Spirit is given, as Apostle Peter gives the standard in Acts 2:38.

So you can continue to say you do not believe what I say, but it comes directly from the Word of God !!!

I will also add I can show clear scriptures from the bible in the OT and NT that sanctification and baptism is done with both water and blood.

Even when Jesus was pierced on the cross what sprayed from His side;

John 19:34
But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.

The covenants are dedicated by both and those who are placed in those covenants are also to be sanctified in like manner;



Hebrews 9:18-20
Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.